looks like the first Kel-Tec RFB in 7.62x51/.308 has hit the market
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Cap'n Jack Burntbeard
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Ugly?
That is a thing of beauty, but the price is not worth it.
I have to wipe the drool off my keyboard every time i see a picture of one of these.
That is a thing of beauty, but the price is not worth it.
I have to wipe the drool off my keyboard every time i see a picture of one of these.
280shooter
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held one today at a gun show.. sure didnt do a thing for me,, ugly..nope not somethig im interested in,
Hostile Amish
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What a disgusting stock, pistol grip, trigger, and price.
SwearNoAllegiance
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This rifle is just how I like it: Ugly, yet expensive.
I'd hit that if I could afford it.
I'd hit that if I could afford it.
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MatthewVanitas
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I'm somewhat surprised they made a .308 version before a .223 version, especially as they had a .223 PDW worked up back in the 1990s.
Then again, there are a handful of .223 bullpups on the market, but really no .308s, so maybe they just wanted to stand out there.
If this version sells well, I'd really like to see a nice tiny .223 version come out soon. Though I expect that they'll be hard pressed to meet demand for the RFB well into next year.
Here's what the older .223 PDW looked like. Move the charging handle to the side, give it the forward brass ejection and a good mounting system for optics up top, and I'm sold. Until then I'll probably just buy an AUG once the new Steyrs come down from the current $2400 "gotta be the first on my block" price.
.223 KT bullpup from the 1990s:
(from http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn75-e.htm)
Then again, there are a handful of .223 bullpups on the market, but really no .308s, so maybe they just wanted to stand out there.
If this version sells well, I'd really like to see a nice tiny .223 version come out soon. Though I expect that they'll be hard pressed to meet demand for the RFB well into next year.
Here's what the older .223 PDW looked like. Move the charging handle to the side, give it the forward brass ejection and a good mounting system for optics up top, and I'm sold. Until then I'll probably just buy an AUG once the new Steyrs come down from the current $2400 "gotta be the first on my block" price.
.223 KT bullpup from the 1990s:
(from http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn75-e.htm)
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I enjoy people claiming that the price is not worth it when we have no idea how the production versions will preform. Obviously the initial price is high and some one with an a little patience will be able to buy it hundreds of dollars cheaper. Aside from that I dont think one can say what the value of the RFB is yet. It would be nice to know the following (and I am eager for the reports):
Fit and Finish: unless it is notably better than every other Kel tec product I have owned or handled it is in no way worth 1k+.
Accuracy: Kel Tec's as a whole are not the most accurate guns. It is going to need to be better than some of the SU 16s I have seen. It really neads at a minimum to be in the same ball park as the other big name .308 semis like the FAL, G3 platforms, etc. If the target model is going to sell well it needs to be on par with an AR.
Reliability: I dont want to get into the whole deabte over how reliable kel tecs are or are not but I will say this, for 1K+ the RFB will need to be good to go from the factory. Fluff and Buffs and return trips to the facotry are okay for a $200 pistol not a something in the price range of the RFB. Because kel tec already has a certain stigma, deserved or not, the intial reports are going to need to be very postive in respect to reliability.
The trigger: The RFB is supposed to have a trigger much better than other bullpups. This is a big part of my interest. I like bullpups and forward and downward ejction has solved one major drawback. The poor trigger is my biggest problem with them now. If the RFB trigger is as good as reports say it will be something unique and special.
In the end though the RFB is worth what someone will pay for it. SO while it might be true to say it is not worth whatever price to you if they are selling for that they are infact worth it. Take for example the 800 wars sales. Crazy to me but aparently they were worth that to someone.
Furthermore, I will submit that totaly subjective evaluations such as it being ugly are hardly arguements against it. Nor are they iron clad facts as some people seem to think. Ugly to one is gorgeous to another. As for me I am more utlitarian in my tastes. I will purchasre or pass on the RFB based on its performance. On paper it is an attractive weapon. What that translates into in the real world is yet to be seen.
Fit and Finish: unless it is notably better than every other Kel tec product I have owned or handled it is in no way worth 1k+.
Accuracy: Kel Tec's as a whole are not the most accurate guns. It is going to need to be better than some of the SU 16s I have seen. It really neads at a minimum to be in the same ball park as the other big name .308 semis like the FAL, G3 platforms, etc. If the target model is going to sell well it needs to be on par with an AR.
Reliability: I dont want to get into the whole deabte over how reliable kel tecs are or are not but I will say this, for 1K+ the RFB will need to be good to go from the factory. Fluff and Buffs and return trips to the facotry are okay for a $200 pistol not a something in the price range of the RFB. Because kel tec already has a certain stigma, deserved or not, the intial reports are going to need to be very postive in respect to reliability.
The trigger: The RFB is supposed to have a trigger much better than other bullpups. This is a big part of my interest. I like bullpups and forward and downward ejction has solved one major drawback. The poor trigger is my biggest problem with them now. If the RFB trigger is as good as reports say it will be something unique and special.
In the end though the RFB is worth what someone will pay for it. SO while it might be true to say it is not worth whatever price to you if they are selling for that they are infact worth it. Take for example the 800 wars sales. Crazy to me but aparently they were worth that to someone.
Furthermore, I will submit that totaly subjective evaluations such as it being ugly are hardly arguements against it. Nor are they iron clad facts as some people seem to think. Ugly to one is gorgeous to another. As for me I am more utlitarian in my tastes. I will purchasre or pass on the RFB based on its performance. On paper it is an attractive weapon. What that translates into in the real world is yet to be seen.
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RevolvingCylinder
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What's the MSRP? Oh that's right, there isn't one right now. I guess we're all going to assume the earliest examples on an auction site will be the going price.
Actualy it has been set at $1800 for a long time. That said the kel tec MSRPs are never even close to what they sell for.
I'll take a nice pile right infront of me over mangled brass shot 15 yards + to the side of me any day. They dont come flying out of the front.
Looks like a couple of folks on AR15 have them actually in their hands
http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=6&f=43
http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=6&f=43
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Yeah, I think it'd be nice to simply put a box under the ejection port toward the front of the bench to capture them all.
KBintheSLC
Member
I haven't... I am scared to check too.
I saw one at the local shop for $1999 a couple of weeks ago. The same gun was $1600 a few months ago.
Though morbidly demeaning to women, I couldn't help but to LOL.
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The Wiry Irishman
Member
I played with them at SHOT, they feel rock solid, and the trigger is truly amazing. Much better than my DSA FAL with their factory trigger job.
I overheard the KT guy telling a dealer/distributor that was interested in ordering some that dealer price would be about 1400.
I overheard the KT guy telling a dealer/distributor that was interested in ordering some that dealer price would be about 1400.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Very interesting.... *SOMEBODY* on here needs to be a guinea pig!
First write up I have seen so far on the FALFiles.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=257845&highlight=rfb
Balzac72
Member
FALaholic # 7270
Old Post March 20, 2009 20:44 Post #1
I figured that with my recent purchase, I should do a small review for FalFiles. It's not going to be too extensive, but should give any prospective buyers an idea of what they're in for.
First off, the rifle is compact, very compact. I put a pic of me holding it so you can see the scale of it compared to me. I'm about 6'2" This bullpup has also been outfitted with an aftermarket forward grip, which in my opinion is absolutely necessary for faster follow up shots and generally being content with controlling it. Although to be quite honest, you can shoot the rifle with one arm, as most of the weight is right over or behind your controlling arm.
The first bit of praise goes to the RFB's trigger, which feels EXTREMELY light, although it breaks at about 6lbs. It isn't a mushy feeling FS2000 type, more more like an AR15, although you can feel the plastic components a bit. But IMO, this rifle should be the model for all future bullpup triggers. It's fantastic!
The rifle handles quite well also. Although in quick mag changes, you will definitely be fumbling a bit with the rifle compared to an AR15. I had to pull the rifle off shoulder, twist the mag towards me, hit the release to drop the empty, then move a fresh mag into place. With more practice, I'm sure I'll speed up, but I'm not quite sure how I'll be able to maintain the barrel and my eyes on target.
Ergonomics are also outstanding. There's not much to say that isn't good, so I'll just give you the one bit of bad. The rear of the stock tended to come off my shoulder and move up a bit, which could bring an optic into contact with your eye. Ask me how I know! But the recoil was manageable and not too stout.
You do know you're shooting a 7.62, but the gun never really jumps too terribly. I was able to put a full mag down range on iron plates in about 30 seconds with all but 3 hitting the plates.
The optic I used was a Leupold 1-3x CQ/B, which I also believe to be perfect for this setup. I had the rifle at 1x for most of the shooting session and found follow up shots were much quicker. At about 50 yards, the rifle after firing would come off target about 4" up and 5" right and quickly settled back in, due to the size and controllability of the bullpup design. I believe a compensator would also make a big difference in keeping on target. But again, being that this is a bullpup design, I would want a MB to divert gases forward, since the end of the barrel is pretty close to your face.
The RFB also uses FAL mags which is nice since most of us have a bunch. I had no failures to feed or any other problems with the mags or rifle.
Accuracy testing wasn't done yet, I didn't use a bench at all. But again, at 50 yards, at 3x on the scope, I was hitting shotgun casings. I believe this will make a relatively accurate gun once I do some accuracy testing on it.
Some of the interesting features are that the gun does not throw the brass, it has controlled extraction and throws the casings down a tube above the barrel ala FS2000. This also makes for a bit of a problem. After firing your last round, the bolt will retain the last fired brass and could appear to be a live case upon quick inspection. A friend pointed this out to me and caught me a bit embarrassed when I tabled the rifle after shooting it.
Also, the sheet metal above the barrel tends to heat up slightly after 2 mags and if it weren't 35 degrees and windy, I think the rifle can get a bit toasty. But thats my speculation, not confirmed fact.
If you guys are able to get your hands on one, this is a VERY nice rifle, made much better than the Kel Tec reputation that most of us think about. I personally believe it's worth at least the MSRP and if you can grab one at that price, buy two! I've seen the Gunbroker gun going steadily higher and now I know why - this rifle is truly a work of art.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=257845&highlight=rfb
Balzac72
Member
FALaholic # 7270
Old Post March 20, 2009 20:44 Post #1
I figured that with my recent purchase, I should do a small review for FalFiles. It's not going to be too extensive, but should give any prospective buyers an idea of what they're in for.
First off, the rifle is compact, very compact. I put a pic of me holding it so you can see the scale of it compared to me. I'm about 6'2" This bullpup has also been outfitted with an aftermarket forward grip, which in my opinion is absolutely necessary for faster follow up shots and generally being content with controlling it. Although to be quite honest, you can shoot the rifle with one arm, as most of the weight is right over or behind your controlling arm.
The first bit of praise goes to the RFB's trigger, which feels EXTREMELY light, although it breaks at about 6lbs. It isn't a mushy feeling FS2000 type, more more like an AR15, although you can feel the plastic components a bit. But IMO, this rifle should be the model for all future bullpup triggers. It's fantastic!
The rifle handles quite well also. Although in quick mag changes, you will definitely be fumbling a bit with the rifle compared to an AR15. I had to pull the rifle off shoulder, twist the mag towards me, hit the release to drop the empty, then move a fresh mag into place. With more practice, I'm sure I'll speed up, but I'm not quite sure how I'll be able to maintain the barrel and my eyes on target.
Ergonomics are also outstanding. There's not much to say that isn't good, so I'll just give you the one bit of bad. The rear of the stock tended to come off my shoulder and move up a bit, which could bring an optic into contact with your eye. Ask me how I know! But the recoil was manageable and not too stout.
You do know you're shooting a 7.62, but the gun never really jumps too terribly. I was able to put a full mag down range on iron plates in about 30 seconds with all but 3 hitting the plates.
The optic I used was a Leupold 1-3x CQ/B, which I also believe to be perfect for this setup. I had the rifle at 1x for most of the shooting session and found follow up shots were much quicker. At about 50 yards, the rifle after firing would come off target about 4" up and 5" right and quickly settled back in, due to the size and controllability of the bullpup design. I believe a compensator would also make a big difference in keeping on target. But again, being that this is a bullpup design, I would want a MB to divert gases forward, since the end of the barrel is pretty close to your face.
The RFB also uses FAL mags which is nice since most of us have a bunch. I had no failures to feed or any other problems with the mags or rifle.
Accuracy testing wasn't done yet, I didn't use a bench at all. But again, at 50 yards, at 3x on the scope, I was hitting shotgun casings. I believe this will make a relatively accurate gun once I do some accuracy testing on it.
Some of the interesting features are that the gun does not throw the brass, it has controlled extraction and throws the casings down a tube above the barrel ala FS2000. This also makes for a bit of a problem. After firing your last round, the bolt will retain the last fired brass and could appear to be a live case upon quick inspection. A friend pointed this out to me and caught me a bit embarrassed when I tabled the rifle after shooting it.
Also, the sheet metal above the barrel tends to heat up slightly after 2 mags and if it weren't 35 degrees and windy, I think the rifle can get a bit toasty. But thats my speculation, not confirmed fact.
If you guys are able to get your hands on one, this is a VERY nice rifle, made much better than the Kel Tec reputation that most of us think about. I personally believe it's worth at least the MSRP and if you can grab one at that price, buy two! I've seen the Gunbroker gun going steadily higher and now I know why - this rifle is truly a work of art.
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