Loose lead balls?

[Low Key]

Seems like you're a fine shooter, getting 1-3" inch groups! I'm all over the place compared to you, though I've only been shooting for around five weeks. I'm doing fairly well so far. I've befriended a target shooter at my local range and he's really excellent with his forty-five.

Thanks Sicilian! Your target shooter freind should be an excellent source of tips and information to improve your shooting...keep your ears open. I've been shooting pretty consistently for nearly a year now to get to the point where I can hit the target in a nice little group. I can step out in my yard and shoot anytime, so I usually shoot twice a week. It may only be 6 or 12 shots at a time, but I'm getting that trigger time in and thats the best thing for making anyone a good shot.
I shoot an 1858 Remington replica made by Pietta and I've smoothed the action and done some trigger work to take out the creep and get the pull down to around 2 pounds...light and short! Here's a hint, the Remington grip makes you want to put the first joint of your trigger finger in the center of your trigger, but that will make your shots toe over left and low. It takes a little practice to feel natural, but use the pad of your finger to pull the trigger (the spot about midway between the very tip and the first joint) you'll pull the trigger straight back and won't toe the muzzle over at the last instant. Took me a few shots to get used to that, but it feels natural now.


I shot these targets last night. 15 yards, duelist, 30gr pyrodex p, 454 ball, CCI#11 caps. The spread is 3.5 inches at the widest point on the bowling pin target.


I shot two distict groups on the gnome, one is a headshot group and the other is...um well..you can guess where I aimed that 2 shot group! 2 1/4 inches is the widest spread on the headshot group.

 

[Steve499]

O.K., Low Key, I'm adding you to mec on my sword list. The one that contains the names of those who if they ever challenge me to a duel, I mean.



Steve

 

[The Sicilian]

Hahaha...same here. Luckly the little knome still has his stones in place! Great shooting though. You're right, by the way. Since I'm left-handed I was shooting low and to the right so you must know what you're talking about, never having seen me shoot! My buddy Mike (The target shooter; he shoots compition) called my 1858 a "keeper" and said my 58' felt better than his (which he hasn't shot in a few years apparently) and was a little heavier. I've never seen anyone shoot so well without getting "used" to a strange gun.

I've been doing my best to keep an ear peeled when he gives me advice. Whenever I see him at the range I ask him about anything that is on my mind concerning shooting. He's helped me out quite a bit and has improved my shooting by at least 50%. One thing he taught me was to "call my shots" Has anyone ever heard this term or phrase before? I was alos holding my revolver a little loosely in hand and he told me to hold tightly like it was a hammer. As soon as I changed over to a tighter grip my accuracy improved greatly. My next goal is to pay closer attention to my trigger squeeze. Then my stance, etc. When I can put everything together I bet I'll be a fine shot with a pistol

Thanks for the advice brother,

The Sicilian.

 

[The Sicilian]

P.S.,

Could you explain in detail what "trigger creep" is and how to tune the action on a gun?

Thanks,

-mario.

 

[Low Key]

Trigger creep is the distance the trigger travels after you first start your squeeze until the trigger releases the hammer and the gun fires. It can be distracting and make you anticipate your shot if the trigger travels a long way during the squeeze. It doesn't bother some shooters, and others like me don't care for creep in the trigger and modify the gun to get rid of the extra travel.

Smoothing the action is a simple process and can be a bit tedious, but what you are doing is just smoothing out the metal surfaces that contact each other when the gun operates. Strip the gun down to the last screw and lay the parts out on a table. You need to stone the action parts anywhere they slide against another part (I use a hard arkansas knife sharpening stone). You don't want to remove any metal, the goal is just to smooth things up slick and if you find any little burrs on the parts you can remove them. You would stone the sides of the hammer where it rotates against the frame of the gun during cocking and firing, the very top of the trigger where it contacts the notches on the bottom of the hammer (those notches are called the sear and they are your half cock and full cock hammer positions) also stone the sear just enough to make it slick but don't remove any metal or flatten any edges. If you're not careful you can make the gun dangerous by modifying the sear notches...so be cautious here. You will also need to stone the sides of the cylinder bolt, (the catch that pops up through the frame to catch the cylinder as it rotates during cocking) and the inside of the frame of the gun where the hammer rotates and down at the bottom where the cylinder bolt and trigger will be mounted when you reassemble the gun.

All that stoning will reduce friction between the parts as they operate and will make cocking the gun feel very slick and smooth. Most of the replicas need this kind of work. It's the kind of finishing work that needs to be done by hand, but the manufacturers don't really put much effort into it. Less hand finishing makes the guns cheaper for us, and most shooters will either smooth things out themselves or just put up with a gritty action and shoot it anyway. Hope that helps you out, let us know how you do at the range next time.

 

[Low Key]

O.K., Low Key, I'm adding you to mec on my sword list.

I've got the accuracy thing down to where I can hit my targets pretty good and now I'm working on producing a little speed getting the gun out of the holster. I'm learning to cock the gun as I draw it and how to get a "flash" sight picture as I fire it. My goal is to be known as the guy who would have been shot in the back of the head if he had lived 150 years ago!

 

[Steve499]

It's all about practice, Low Key, as I'm sure you know. Having a place to shoot any time you feel like it makes proficiency so much easier to attain. When I lived out on my old home place years ago, I shot every day, nearly. I always had a pistol on me anyway (deputy sheriff) and I'd shoot it empty before I went in the house. Your brain can do amazing things if it has enough incoming data to allow what they call muscle memory to occur. It works with pitching baseballs, hitting golfballs, shooting bows without sights and it works with pistols, too. If, every day, you'll shoot at a target which allows you to see your misses when the ball hits, without any effort or conscious adjustment, over time you will hit more and miss less. The smaller your target and therefore the tighter your concentration on a spot, the closer your shots will be to each other. I'm talking about just drawing and shooting without raising the gun all the way up to eye level to sight it. Over time you can just look at something and thats where your shot will hit, or pretty close. It's very good practice for serious social disagreements plus it's a heckuva lotta fun!

Betcha that's what John Wesley hardin did, too.

Steve

 

[The Sicilian]

Thanks for the information Lowkey, it was very interesting. I need to get my hands on another shooter's gun so I can have a point of reference of what is considered "smooth" action or "rough" action. My guns feel pretty good, though my Remington is pretty stiff when thunbing the hammer back. The 1860 feels a little smoother. The Remington doesn't have any trigger creep and is almost a hair trigger whereas the Colt 1860 has just a touch of trigger creep. I've noticed modern firearms like the Makarov 9mm that I've shot and a few others have quite a lot of trigger creep. Is this part of the design matrix of the semi-automatic pistols?

When shooting an Ak-47 I didn't remember feeling any trigger creep.

The only thing I'm unclear about is how to smooth out the parts. Do you run them along a finishing stone very gently? I'd imagine that it would be a little easier if you could use steel wool or something similar, but I noticed you didn't mention anything like that so I guess theres a reason you need to use a stone, huh? I need to go to some sort of Muzzleloading Festival or get together this summer, that way I can meet more BP shooters and learn more about these guns close up. Any comments about the Ruger Old Army guys? Seems like it's the Cadillac of BP pistols, what do you guys think?

-mario.

 

[MCgunner]

Be real careful with cocking any thumb buster out of the leather. For safety's sake, I like to use my off hand (two hand hold) to do the cocking. Oh, I can thumb it fine out of the leather, but I just keep thinking how that ball is going to feel taking off a couple of toes.

My blackhawks have a transfer bar system. So long as my trigger finger is out of the trigger guard until I'm on target, not a problem. But, the Old Army could conceivably slip off my thumb and hit the cap. I'm particularly careful about that with cap and ball guns.

 

[Low Key]

Be real careful with cocking any thumb buster out of the leather.

Good advice MCgunner, and I agree with you. Right now I'm moving real slow and getting the movement down perfect, building the muscle memory as steve mentioned. I make sure to get a good grip every time so all the fingers "know" exactly where they are supposed to be every draw. I carry butt forward on my left hip and draw with my right hand so the muzzle doesn't cross my toes as I draw.

The Remington doesn't have any trigger creep and is almost a hair trigger whereas the Colt 1860 has just a touch of trigger creep.

Mario, Thats excellent that your remington has no creep in the trigger! That will make you a much more accurate shooter over time as your trigger break will be more of a surprise and not cause you to flinch the shot off target. As far as stoning the parts, I use a finishing stone like you would use for sharpening a knife blade. It's called a hard arkansas stone and you can pick one up in the sporting goods dept at Wal-Mart. It's basically just an old fashioned smooth rock. You could use steel wool, but the stone is just easier to handle and gives you more of the results you're wanting. If you can find a CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) match in your area, go hang out there for a day, question the shooters and look at the guns. The guys there will be more than willing to show off their revolvers and give you the type of advice you're looking for.

If, every day, you'll shoot at a target which allows you to see your misses when the ball hits, without any effort or conscious adjustment, over time you will hit more and miss less. The smaller your target and therefore the tighter your concentration on a spot, the closer your shots will be to each other. I'm talking about just drawing and shooting without raising the gun all the way up to eye level to sight it. Over time you can just look at something and thats where your shot will hit, or pretty close.

Steve, you read my mind! That's exactly the type of performance I'm looking for and working towards. Both the accuracy and speed are built on muscle memory and the muscle memory comes from lots of experience. I love being able to shoot when I want to and not have to drive to a range!

 

[gmatov]

McGunner,

If you have drawn and cocked that thing to where the tansfer bar is in play, touch the trigger, and you have gotten a discharge. The gun goes BOOM.

It is not a safety to keep you from being dumb, it is to keep you from dropping the thing and shooting yourself., without cocking it. You must cock it to get the transfer bar into play. Until you do, it will not contact the firing pin, even with a 2 pound hammer. Dates from 1973, I think. Free retrofit, if you don't got it, send it back, they will make it good.
Cheers,

George

Lowkey, what the hell you gonna do with steel wool? He don't have rust or corrosion, that's all you can take off with steel wool. He should NOT play with the engagement of the sear hammer engagement till he has WAY more experience than shown to date.

Shoot the sumbitch for a while before you go to changoing geometries..

Mario,

Shoot the sumbitch before you decide you gotta fine it up. Some of the people here are too quick to file and grind, they are also the ones who are the best customers for replacement parts.

Cheers,
George

 

[gmatov]

McGunner,

If you have drawn and cocked that thing to where the tansfer bar is in play, touch the trigger, and you have gotten a discharge. The gun goes BOOM.

It is not a safety to keep you from being dumb, it is to keep you from dropping the thing and shooting yourself., without cocking it. You must cock it to get the transfer bar into play. Until you do, it will not contact the firing pin, even with a 2 pound hammer. Dates from 1973, I think. Free retrofit, if you don't got it, send it back, they will make it good.
Cheers,

George

Mario,

Don't play with the engagement of the hammer sear contact. If you gotta do anything till you are fully cognizant what's going on, make dure it's not loaded, cock the pistol, push on the hammer, with as much thumb pressure as you can, and click the trigger. It will most times smooth out the trigger pull without f**in around with any kind of stones.

 

[Low Key]

Lowkey, what the hell you gonna do with steel wool? He don't have rust or corrosion, that's all you can take off with steel wool. He should NOT play with the engagement of the sear hammer engagement till he has WAY more experience than shown to date.

George, I notice that your post time was 1:50am so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you didn't completely read my post or catch my cautions to Mario.

Smoothing the action is a simple process and can be a bit tedious, but what you are doing is just smoothing out the metal surfaces that contact each other when the gun operates. Strip the gun down to the last screw and lay the parts out on a table. You need to stone the action parts anywhere they slide against another part (I use a hard arkansas knife sharpening stone). You don't want to remove any metal, the goal is just to smooth things up slick and if you find any little burrs on the parts you can remove them. You would stone the sides of the hammer where it rotates against the frame of the gun during cocking and firing, the very top of the trigger where it contacts the notches on the bottom of the hammer (those notches are called the sear and they are your half cock and full cock hammer positions) also stone the sear just enough to make it slick but don't remove any metal or flatten any edges. If you're not careful you can make the gun dangerous by modifying the sear notches...so be cautious here. You will also need to stone the sides of the cylinder bolt, (the catch that pops up through the frame to catch the cylinder as it rotates during cocking) and the inside of the frame of the gun where the hammer rotates and down at the bottom where the cylinder bolt and trigger will be mounted when you reassemble the gun.

Nowhere did I suggest changing the engagement of the trigger to the sear, just smoothing the surface to reduce friction and I cautioned that making modifications to the sear could be dangerous. I also didn't recommend steel wool for smoothing, I said he could use it but would get better results with a stone...and he sure wouldn't be changing any angles or engagments with steel wool now would he?

Maybe you didn't mean to come off as harsh and critical, but people take a lot of important communication information from your expression and tone of voice. I know that you speak your mind and thats fine but we can't see your face or hear your tone, we only have your typed words to judge your mood from. I suggest using the smileys over at the side to convey your moods...thats why they are there.

 

[gmatov]

Lowkey,

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound harsh. It's 1 AM here, now. Hope to sound as though you should pay a little heed.

You didn't mention changing engagement of the hammer/sear.

Steel wool will clean up any rust in the innards, if it's there. Best for a new pistol of this type, kinda lowish quality, is to cock and push on the hammer to get a little engagement pressure, squeeze the trigger, will kinda polish the sliding parts, break off any burrs there might be.

Stones, even hard Arkansas, can cut too much metal. In the hands of a novice, can change depths and angles. Study will let you know what you should and should not do. It does not take forever to learn our sport, if you are willing to spend that much time at it. I know Mario is happy with his shooting, but still, this is a hobby shooting site.

Few Gunsmiths are posting here. We are kinda the blind leading the blind..

I have some experience with gunsmithing, from way back, till factory work told me I could earn more than enough to raise a family than I could earn as a gunsmith.

Personally, I would advise Mario to get a sheet of 600 grit wet 'n dry and polish stuff with that. Lay the hammer on that, rub it a few licks, turn over and get rid of all burrs. Same with all the other parts.

I must be lucky. All mine are crisp in the letoff, way better, even, than my Model 29, and Smith is known for crisp letoff.. My 19s, ditto, and my 17, and that is a target model.

Mebbe back then they knew if you pulled a pistol, you were gonna shoot something, today, you need the pause to let you think twice, am I gonna get in trouble for this, mebbe I shouldn't shoot that intruder, he MIGHT NOT have bad intentions toward me and mine, it might be all in my mind.

Cheers,

George

 

[Low Key]

George,

I'll admit that I'm no expert, I've been at this for nearly year and I know that I don't know it all. I've learned a lot on here and on The Firing line from you and beartracker, steve, mec, and from my own personal tinkering around with my guns. I was trying to answer Mario's question while still conveying the need for caution about changing surfaces, maybe that didn't come across as clearly as it could have and if not then that's my fault for not taking the time to fully make the point. I'm still learning, that's the point of being here. No hard feelings george, have a good day.

 

[gmatov]

Lowkey,

Same here, no hard feelings with anybody.

Gotta go to the kid's house to eat, now, hope to be back later, and see a few good posts. Where the heck is everybody, and not only this forum, ALL the BPs are slow, and TFL is not responding at all.

Cheers,

George

 

[Duncaninfrance]

George, how's tricks?!!
I can't get TFL to load at all and it has been like that for 2 days now.
Duncan

 

[gmatov]

Hi, Duncan,

Doing as well as could be expected, nothing to complain about, personally, but with the kids house, whole 'nother story.

Trying to get concreete drive and walks poured, yoyo they first hired has been pouring and getting rained on and ruined and ripping back out.

Finally fired him and got another man, started today, all formed up and gravel leveled and ready to pour, should be done in 3 days, barring cloudbursts.

Haven't been able to shoot for a while, what with standing there cracking the whip on the yoyo and taking the g'daughter to soccer practice. Getting itchy, probably from sulfur fume withdrawal.

Cheers,

George

Oh, yes, same here, click TFL in bookmarks, five seconds still where I was and "done" down in the corner. Doesn't even say the site can't be found. Must have broken it good, this time. Here's hoping for the best for them. Can't afford to lose any BP sites that talk about just shootin' these things, not just CAS stuff. That's not my cuppa. Or anything organized, anymore.

 

[Low Key]

TFL must be having server problems again, I haven't been able to get the page up either. I've looked at a couple of other bp forums and everywhere is slow on postings right now. Most of us are out doing stuff since the weather is warmer instead of computer jockying like we do all winter when it's too cold to be out. I'm only on in the early morning now before work and out doing yard work or other some such in the evening. I got an email from beartracker the other day, and he's doing the same thing...he's got a honeydo list and no time for forums right now. We all know what thats like!

 

[Low Key]

Just tried TFL again and got the following message:

On Saturday, May 13 the TFL Server Crashed for reasons unknown.

Since that time, attempts to reach our Sever Hosting Company have failed.

Offsite backup of the TFL database is available from several hours prior to the crash; no critical data has been lost.

We are currently working to bring the site up on a server owned and hosted by Eric Powell at GlockTalk.com pending retrieval of our owned servers from the former Hosting Company.

Updates will be provided on this page