lower power 44 mag rifle loads with 2400 powder

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

trekker73

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2020
Messages
465
Trying to recreate the old 1892 44-40 HV load power levels in a 44 mag rifle here. Wondered if I can use 2400 powder to get to 1400-1500fps or so with 200 grain jacketed bullets. I know the powder can get me a lot faster than that, whether there are loads for it this low is this question.

The fella who is about to reply ""dont go lower than established data" and the next fellas who is about to say "there are better powders for the job" yup I agree with both, have handloaded since 1996. Thing is, I dont know all the load data out there( some can vary a lot) . Regards better powders I have quite a bit of 2400 from when prices were down :). if I can get there with 2400 safely would be very handy.
 
Last edited:
What will min. 2400 loads listed in your manual give you as comparison to 44-40 velocities?
 
Doesnt really say, being loads with 2400 are usually full house or more often for revolver where you are only guessing where they end up with rifles. Guess I should do some testing with it.
 
Look in your manual(s), 44 Magnum, 200 gr. jacketed, 2400, rifle data. What are the starting velocities?
 
Already said they are more full house loads. The data I am after is about 300-400fps slower. All good, I will check elsewhere. Seem to remember 44-40 data using 2400 for lower power. Will try over at castboolits.
 
trekker73 said:
Already said they are more full house loads. The data I am after is about 300-400fps slower. All good, I will check elsewhere. Seem to remember 44-40 data using 2400 for lower power. Will try over at castboolits.
Click to expand...
Check case fill and work your way down. The powders used in 300bo are in the same burnrate and work fine. Maybe use a chronograph to make sure your not getting erratic ignition. Are you looking for someone to tell you it's OK.
 
I am away from home and don’t have my manuals handy. Check the max .44 Special loads with that combo in 44 Magnum brass and work up from there. At the very least you can make educated guesses. I looked at the manufacturer website and they only listed 1 .44 Magnum load with a 210 XTP at 1500+ pistol data. They already tells you to reduce by 10%. That means they are starting you in the range you want to be. But if your looking for a guaranteed out of my log book load to do what you asked, I don’t have that!
 
AJC1 said:
Check case fill and work your way down. The powders used in 300bo are in the same burnrate and work fine. Maybe use a chronograph to make sure your not getting erratic ignition. Are you looking for someone to tell you it's OK.
Click to expand...

Initially looking for load data, printed or otherwise so in effect yes looking for confirmation these sort of loads are okay. Takes some of the grey area out of experimentation.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
trekker73 said:
Initially looking for load data, printed or otherwise so in effect yes looking for confirmation these sort of loads are okay. Takes some of the grey area out of experimentation.
Click to expand...
Well I'm running 8.9 grains in a 38 case behind a 180. That's a 20kpsi load. It shoots great. I have no fear of downloading pistol powders. Consistent ignition is important for me because in metallic Silhouette I'm basically lobbing a pistol bullets 200 yards. I have just slightly better success with 9.0 grains of #9. Depending on application I'm talking a half inch difference at 50 uards. Both loads are satisfactory for my game, and considering your working with what ya got then party on.
 
trekker73 said:
Trying to recreate the old 1892 44-40 HV load power levels in a 44 mag rifle here. Wondered if I can use 2400 powder to get to 1400-1500fps or so with 200 grain jacketed bullets.
Click to expand...

First, the 44 W.H.V. Data

Original 44 W.H.V. data
1917 data shows 18,000cup service pressure and 23,500cup proof pressures
Vintage Cartridge Samples yielded as high as 20gr of Sharpshooter powder

Advertised Velocities
  • 1903 - .4255" Winchester 200gr Soft Point (JSP), 1,500fps
  • 1925 - .4255" Winchester 200gr Soft Point (JSP), 1,564fps
  • 1938 - .4255" Winchester 200gr Soft Point (JSP), 1,570fps
My Tested Replicated Loads
1914 WRACo. Cases
19.6gr Sharpshooter Smokeless Powder
  • .4255" Winchester 200gr Soft Point (JSP), 1,568fps @ 15,583psi or close to 18,420cup

Lyman's 49th list such loads for the 44-40 for Group II strong action rifles like the 92'

Page 299 (refer to manual for details)

The following for use with 2400 powder

200gr Speer JHP/ 24" Universal Receiver
  • Start - 18gr to achieve 1,380fps @ 14,600cup
  • Max - 20gr to achieve 1,638fps @ 19,600cup (exceeds the 1917 Service Pressure CUP data)
2400 was not listed for use with lead bullets for HV loads.

My Test Results (20" MGM Barrel .429" Bore)
  • 20gr 2400, .430" 180 JHP Hornady XTP, 1,554fps @ 13,727psi or close to 16,226cup
  • 20gr 2400, .429" 200 JHP Speer 4425, 1,672fps @ 15,618psi or close to 18,461cup (Lyman's 49th Max Load Group II, 19,000cup)
  • 20gr 2400, .4295" 210 JHC Sierra, 1,640fps @ 19,500psi or close to 23,050cup
If you use Winchester .4255" JSP bullets, with the above Lyman load, expect lower pressures and higher velocities if used in a .429" or larger bore.

My Data
 
Last edited:
Lyman's 49th shows data for the 44 Magnum cartridge used in a rifle on page 301. Refer to manual for load details.

Hornady 200gr XTP/ Winchester Model 94AE 20" barrel .429" bore (so no pressures noted)
  • Start - 19.5gr to achieve 1,603fps, no pressures noted
  • Max - 23.6gr to achieve 1,880fps, no pressures noted
Should be able to work a 1,570fps load up from this data for the 44 Magnum
 
Last edited:
The listed pressures above are in the normal 38 range. You will have a lot of unburned powder... using magnum powder is normally a sacrifice of a lot of additional powder to achieve the top velocity. In these senerios you are using a lot more powder for less velocity. I know you want to use what you have, I totally get that. 2400 is very valuable and a trade to someone for a more appropriate burn rate would benefit your efficiency significantly.
 
Savvy Jack said:
Lyman's 49th shows data for the 44 Magnum cartridge used in a rifle on page 301. Refer to manual for load details.

Hornady 200gr XTP/ Winchester Model 94AE 20" barrel .429" bore (so no pressures noted)
  • Start - 19.5gr to achieve 1,603fps, no pressures noted
  • Max - 23.6gr to achieve 1,880fps, no pressures noted
Should be able to work a 1,570fps load up from this data for the 44 Magnum
Click to expand...

AJC1 said:
The listed pressures above are in the normal 38 range. You will have a lot of unburned powder... using magnum powder is normally a sacrifice of a lot of additional powder to achieve the top velocity. In these senerios you are using a lot more powder for less velocity. I know you want to use what you have, I totally get that. 2400 is very valuable and a trade to someone for a more appropriate burn rate would benefit your efficiency significantly.
Click to expand...

The same load I mentioned above for the rifle is also mentioned on page 377 for revolver use. However, this load was tested in a 4" Universal Receiver. No mention if the Receiver was vented.

The listed C.U.P. results are much less than 38,000cup if that is what you were referring to....I really wasn't sure.

Hornady 200gr XTP/ Universal Receiver, 4" barrel .429" bore
  • Start - 19.5gr to achieve 972fps, 23,100cup
  • Max - 23.6gr to achieve 1,227fps, 35,000cup
More than likely the shooter will have unburned powder as a result of the less dense loading but that was not part of the OP's question.

Unburned or "Skeletons" would appear to not be something new. Here is some Sharpshooter skeletons from some 1930's replicated loads I made recently.
289315399_2100033843510521_4990480391047199286_n.jpg
164891439_480080883027765_8324421010584667460_nA.jpg

Efficiency = Economy, and if you drive a truck, hotrod, motorcycle or fly an airplane.....well, you get the idea...what ever works that folks enjoy!!
 
Last edited:
Savvy Jack said:
The same load I mentioned above for the rifle is also mentioned on page 377 for revolver use. However, this load was tested in a 4" Universal Receiver. No mention if the Receiver was vented.

The listed C.U.P. results are much less than 38,000cup if that is what you were referring to....I really wasn't sure.

Hornady 200gr XTP/ Universal Receiver, 4" barrel .429" bore
  • Start - 19.5gr to achieve 972fps, 23,100cup
  • Max - 23.6gr to achieve 1,227fps, 35,000cup
More than likely the shooter will have unburned powder as a result of the less dense loading but that was not part of the OP's question.

Unburned or "Skeletons" would appear to not be something new. Here is some Sharpshooter skeletons from some 1930's replicated loads I made recently.
View attachment 1090444
View attachment 1090445

Efficiency = Economy, and if you drive a truck, hotrod, motorcycle or fly an airplane.....well, you get the idea...what ever works that folks enjoy!!
Click to expand...
Like one of these 20220717_183853.jpg
I still like load efficiency
 
Savvy Jack said:
First, the 44 W.H.V. Data

Original 44 W.H.V. data
1917 data shows 18,000cup service pressure and 23,500cup proof pressures
Vintage Cartridge Samples yielded as high as 20gr of Sharpshooter powder

Advertised Velocities
  • 1903 - .4255" Winchester 200gr Soft Point (JSP), 1,500fps
  • 1925 - .4255" Winchester 200gr Soft Point (JSP), 1,564fps
  • 1938 - .4255" Winchester 200gr Soft Point (JSP), 1,570fps
My Tested Replicated Loads
1914 WRACo. Cases
19.6gr Sharpshooter Smokeless Powder
  • .4255" Winchester 200gr Soft Point (JSP), 1,568fps @ 15,583psi or close to 18,420cup

Lyman's 49th list such loads for the 44-40 for Group II strong action rifles like the 92'

Page 299 (refer to manual for details)

The following for use with 2400 powder

200gr Speer JHP/ 24" Universal Receiver
  • Start - 18gr to achieve 1,380fps @ 14,600cup
  • Max - 20gr to achieve 1,638fps @ 19,600cup (exceeds the 1917 Service Pressure CUP data)
2400 was not listed for use with lead bullets for HV loads.

My Test Results (20" MGM Barrel .429" Bore)
  • 20gr 2400, .430" 180 JHP Hornady XTP, 1,554fps @ 13,727psi or close to 16,226cup
  • 20gr 2400, .429" 200 JHP Speer 4425, 1,672fps @ 15,618psi or close to 18,461cup (Lyman's 49th Max Load Group II, 19,000cup)
  • 20gr 2400, .4295" 210 JHC Sierra, 1,640fps @ 19,500psi or close to 23,050cup
If you use Winchester .4255" JSP bullets, with the above Lyman load, expect lower pressures and higher velocities if used in a .429" or larger bore.

My Data
Click to expand...

Savvy jack honored to have you reply to my thread here. My group of friends have followed your posts over at Paco's and C.E Harris the book author kindly sent me some of your data a while back too. Great read on the 44-40 and HV loads.
 
What you are looking for are upper level Unique loads.

10.0gr of Unique will give you what you’re looking for.
Back in 80-81, a co-worker and I would go to an open land-fill after we got off night shift at PD.
We shot home-cast Lyman 255gr Keith style SWC over 10.0 of Unique. We shot anti-freeze jugs to 200yds. We also shot 1st and 2nd.at quarterly department qualifications. Our carry guns were Mod 19’s w/SuperVel... those WERE “the good old days”!

Minimum load with 255keith w/#2400 is about 18.5gr. Newer #2400 is a little more forgiving than old stock from ‘80’s and earlier. 11.0gr is currently listed as max for Unique @~1,200fps (we had 6.5”bbls). 10.0 of the “old” Unique ran about 1,000fps.
 
GooseGestapo said:
What you are looking for are upper level Unique loads.

10.0gr of Unique will give you what you’re looking for.
Back in 80-81, a co-worker and I would go to an open land-fill after we got off night shift at PD.
We shot home-cast Lyman 255gr Keith style SWC over 10.0 of Unique. We shot anti-freeze jugs to 200yds. We also shot 1st and 2nd.at quarterly department qualifications. Our carry guns were Mod 19’s w/SuperVel... those WERE “the good old days”!

Minimum load with 255keith w/#2400 is about 18.5gr. Newer #2400 is a little more forgiving than old stock from ‘80’s and earlier. 11.0gr is currently listed as max for Unique @~1,200fps (we had 6.5”bbls). 10.0 of the “old” Unique ran about 1,000fps.
Click to expand...

He is looking for reduced rifle load data.......2400 and a 200gr bullet at about 1,570fps for the 44 Magnum rifle. Lyman's 49th lists such a load but slightly higher velocity at 1,600fps...pretty darn close and certainly worth a try. Actually velocities might even be slightly slower than 1,600fps. Then he can see how accurate it is.
 
Savvy Jack said:
He is looking for reduced rifle load data.......2400 and a 200gr bullet at about 1,570fps for the 44 Magnum rifle. Lyman's 49th lists such a load but slightly higher velocity at 1,600fps...pretty darn close and certainly worth a try. Actually velocities might even be slightly slower than 1,600fps. Then he can see how accurate it is.
Click to expand...

Understood!
But #2400 doesn’t do well at the lower charges and lighter bullets he’s pursuing. The upper end of Unique loads puts him right where he wants to be, at slightly more than half as much powder...Besides clean burning, they’re quite accurate due to elevated pressures contributing to obturation of the bullet to bore.

I’ve been loading, shooting, and casting for 50yrs. Learned a few things along the way...

A 200gr bullet will do MUCH better with a faster burning powder. Much cheaper, too!
If he’s using a Marlin l/a he’s going to need a .431-.432” bullet as their bores are a tad large...

BTDT...
 
The Lyman 50th Reloading Manual has data pretty close to what you are looking for. It is in the rifle section. Might give it a try.
Lafitte
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

J
  • Locked
Alliant 2400 loads for .44 Mag?
2
Replies
29
Views
28K
saltydog452
S
T
  • Locked
44 mag heavy loads with 2400 powder
Replies
20
Views
777
Frulk
Frulk
T
44 mag with 2400 powder present and past
2
Replies
29
Views
1K
Seedy Character
S
Rule3
  • Locked
How much can 2400 powder be reduced in 44 Mag loads?
Replies
14
Views
7K
Rule3
Rule3
range_rider13
  • Locked
.357 Magnum and 2400 Powder
Replies
20
Views
25K
ArchAngelCD
ArchAngelCD
Back
Top