LW Commander vs. Commander vs. Full size?

[Quintin Likely]

I've been kicking around the idea of another 1911, this time though a Commander sized version. Now, what I'm curious is, how does a steel Commander stack up, weight wise, to a full size steel model? Or how about a light-weight Commander? I've got no problem concealing or carrying a full size Government model, although after a day of errands, I'm kinda sorta in the market for something lighter. Is that few extra ounces really noticable?

 

[Jim Watson]

I think so.
The Commander (original, lightweight) is a lot more portable than a Combat Commander. The CC is not enough lighter than a Government Model to matter much.

 

[stans]

The difference in concealability between the Commanders and the Government model is not all that great, it is usually the butt of the pistol that prints the most. The lightweight aluminum frame does save several ounces of weight and that can make a big difference at the end of a long day. The ultimate in concealability and reliability would be an Officer's ACP frame mated to a Commander upper unit.

 

[Sean Smith]

Going from a Government to a Combat Commander isn't much of a weight or size savings. They sure do FEEL nice and handy in the hand,however. The Lightweight Commander is WAY lighter than either one (and has heavier recoil to match).

 

[Zak Smith]

Here are some weight numbers:

Kimber Ultra Carry: 25 oz -> 30.5
LW Commander: 27 oz -> 32.5
Ti-framed Commander: 29.4 oz -> 34.9
BHP(9): 32 oz -> 39
Combat Commander: 34 oz -> 39.5
Gov't: 39 oz -> 44.5

The second column is loaded with 9mm-124gr (15+1), or .45acp-200gr (7+1). Note that 15+1 9mm weighs 7oz, while 7+1 .45 weighs 5.5oz (200gr bullets)

-z

 

[Ankeny]

I used to pack a full size 1911, now I carry a Lwt. Commander sized pistol. Ditto what Sean and Jim said.

 

[Quintin Likely]

Are their any long term durability concerns with a lightweight Commander that I should be aware of?

And, assuming I do take the plunge, who do I go with to get a LW Commander? I don't want a big ol' beavertail grip safety or a full length guiderod, just a plain jane, nothing fancy LW Commander. Colt doesn't list this as being available with their 1991 series; gotta step up to an XSE with them. The Kimbers just seem, well, too "flashy" to me. Plus it looks like the Kimbers have some sorta bushingless bull barrel setup, I just want a standard GI guiderod and plug. Something I could get off the shelf with those requirements would be pretty sweet. I don't ask for too much, do I?

 

[Zak Smith]

Aluminum has less fatigue strength than steel.
http://www.connector.org/fatigue03.html

Fatigue strength is of importance whenever a high number of deflections occur over the life of the component. Contact springs (or other stressed components) can fail during service when the metal is deflected and released a high number of times-even though the metal is not highly stressed. This phenomenon is called "metal fatigue." A fatigue failure is one in which the metal fractures because it is subjected to a high number of cycles at a stress below the metal's yield strength. Fatigue occurs because micro cracks develop on the metals surface when it is cyclically stressed. With repeated bending these cracks propagate through the metal thickness to a point where the remaining sound structure fails by ordinary rupture (because the load can

Higher strength materials resist plastic deformation and hence have a higher fatigue strength at long lives.

You can pretty easily find steel 1911 frames with 100,000's of rounds through them, but you likely won't find an aluminum 1911 frame with that number of rounds with no cracks. Fatigue cracks are due to cyclic deformation and every cycle counts down that fatigue lifetime of aluminum. Even a frame that looks "okay" and "without wear" can still be down the road to failure from fatigue.

Titanium has a much higher fatigue strength than aluminum.

-z

 

[The Tourist]

Like many shooters, I have duplicates of lots of my firearms. I can see having a 1911 Government, and a Commander. The Commander would be the pistol "carried a lot and shot a little."

To be sure, the Commander must be fired with lots of loads and many magazines to ensure that it fires when it's needed.

I had a Glock 23 for four or five years, in fact, in guarded my living room for a bit. Because of the time on the firing range with that pistol, I felt confident into making a Glock 27 my EDC pistol.

As for a Commander's cracking problem, it's not a big deal. I've heard of many Commanders with their frames cracked, usually from the take-down pin hole up into the frame rails, that still fire after thousands of rounds. My Delta Elite had that entire section of metal machined out all together.

Like any other issue, this is your carry gun, please make sure it's in good service and you have practiced with a firearm with similar controls.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Well stated above - - -

- - Especially Zak's weight table.

I carry a Commander practically every day and it suits me extremely well. I probably shoot it around 400 rounds a year, and if you figure useful life at, say, 6,000 rounds, this would mean some 15 years of service life. Since I approach retirement in next few years, it'll probably last a lot longer than this.

I recently put the previous, rather weary, Commander up in the safe. After over 30 years in service, it still works quite well. I dare say I have close to 10K through it, mostly lead handloads.

I can see no advantage in carrying an all-steel Commander size pistol - - It has the shorter sight radius, but weighs practically as much as a Government Model, without the "feel" and "pointability" of the longer piece. The steel slide atop the alloy frame of the (true) Commander gives it a tactile index the steel frame piece lacks, in my estimation.

I can practice with a Govt Model - Identical sights, trigger, and stocks - - and shoot it in most matches. It has the same manual of arms as the Commander (and my Officers ACP LW, as well.)

I qualify with my Commander at least once a year, and try to shoot at least one IDPA match with it, as well. While I've never fired it "for blood," the times I've drawn it under stress, the actions were all entirely automatic. There's much to be said for well-programmed muscle memory.

And, yes, if I had good reason to really believe I was gonna have "a difficulty" on some given day - - - and couldn't avoid it - - - and was limited to sidearms - - - and all that unrealistic stuff . . . I'd certainly carry TWO full size 1911s. But I live in the real world, and I just want to be reasonably able to deal with something unexpected.

Best,
Johnny

 

[happyguy]

All I own are government size 1911's and all but one are traditional looking and have no add-ons. The one that I'm really starting to warm up to is the SW1911. If S&W were to fix the rear sight abomination and come out with a scandium frame Commander with a steel feedramp insert, I think I'd buy one.

Regards,
Happyguy

 

[1911Tuner]

The Lightweight Commander

It's not only superb, it's my hands-down favorite carry gun. The weight of a
full-sized gun doesn't bother me. I carry one so much that I notice the weight only rarely. The LW Commander practically disappears on my belt,
but I am acutely aware of when it's missing.

I have fairly large hands, so I need the full-sized grip frame, and the
sight radius is perfectly adequate for its intended purpose. The recoil is
a bit sharper than a steel-framed gun, but not at all unmanageable.

The one advantage of the Commander platform is often overlooked.
It will be a shade faster out of the leather than a 5-inch gun in an emergency...where split seconds often determine who goes home and who doesn't. It won't be match-grade accuracy that determines it...Neither will it be a 3/4 inch longer sight radius. A 3-pound trigger will be of scant use. It will, in all liklihood be determined by who shoots first or whether you can shoot in time to stop a baseball bat attack at just over arm's length, and close range defense is what the little gun was primarily intended for.

I lkie the steel-framed Combat Commander for heavy range use. Bottom line is that the alloy frame won't stand up to hard service as well as steel,
but for carry, I'll take a stock Lightweight Commander any old time.

Your mileage, of course...may vary.

Tuner

 

[John Forsyth]

I carry a LW Colt XSE Commander. It weighs less loaded than a Government does empty. It points the same, it has the same manual of arms, uses the same mags and ammo.

For competition, I use 5 inch, all steel, Government models. If I have to shoot in a personal defense or carry mode, I doubt I will notice the difference in recoil. But, as all I shoot are 1911's, I want muscle memory to just go without having to think about what gun I am carrying. The way I look at it, carry what you compete with, shoot what you carry. Don't think, just shoot.

 

[Shmackey]

The ultimate in concealability and reliability would be an Officer's ACP frame mated to a Commander upper unit.

Yes!

Unfortunately, nobody seems to make a lightweight CCO model with non-crap parts for less than $1300. Colt used to. They stopped, presumably because the demand was there and the gun was superb.

 

[stans]

Dan Wesson is starting to produce CCO type 1911's. DW's are usually nice guns, so we will see what happens. They are even planning on a CCO in 10mm!

 

[Albert Shear]

My hands down favorite is a Les Baer Concept IX Lightweight Commanche(Commander size). It also has a ramped barrel which means the frame is cut out and the barrel has an integral steel feed ramp. Novak Nite sights and thin grips. In fact its what I'm carrying now. I took it off the belt to take the pic.

 

[1911Tuner]

Carry what ya shoot

John Forsyth said:


But, as all I shoot are 1911's, I want muscle memory to just go without having to think about what gun I am carrying. The way I look at it, carry what you compete with, shoot what you carry. Don't think, just shoot.

John...AMEN! Many people don't consider that point, but if you keep
in mind that during the awful stress of that "Mad Moment, you WILL
go into auto-response about 99% of the time...at least for the opening
bell...and what you have repeatedly done on the range is what you will do
in a fight. If the gun that you've practiced with is different than your carry gun, it will affect your performance to some degree. More than that...
every move that is repeated will also be auto responsive. F'rinstance...
When you reload, do you drop the magazine and slap a fresh one in, or
do you make a quarter-turn and lay the empty on a table and pick up another one? If the table isn't there, it interrupts the sequence, and
you may freeze in place, looking for a table that doesn't exist.

I read a story about a cop once...Illinois State Trooper I believe...who shot his revolver dry...dropped the empty brass in his hand...made a quarter-turn to his right to drop the brass into the range bucket, and was killed.
Eyewitnesses said that he stood there looking around for a full 5 seconds
before he was hit. The bucket wasn't there, and in the stress, his brain
couldn't process the information in time to save his life. Things to consider when practicing.

Everthing that you do is training...every move that you make, whether it's apparent or not. Do you immediately move to seek cover on the range? No? What makes you think that you will when the flag flies if you have formed a habit of standing in one place to practice? Have you practiced
shooting with one hand? How about one handed from hip level while fending off a close-range attackwith the weak hand? Point-shoulder
shooting with eyes off the sights in case your day comes at night and
you can't see the sights? No? Better tend to it. Most life/death things
happen at arm's length and/or at night, usually without obvious warning.

Good post John. Kudos!


Albert...NIIIIIICE.

 

[Shmackey]

Dan Wesson is starting to produce CCO type 1911's. DW's are usually nice guns, so we will see what happens. They are even planning on a CCO in 10mm!

Yes, but they're all steel, which defeats a lot of the purpose.

 

[Sean Smith]

Yes, but they're all steel, which defeats a lot of the purpose.

I'd tend to disagree. You gain alot of concealability, and still have a fair weight savings, going from a Government or Combat Commander to a CCO. In terms of concealing the gun, a steel CCO is a good bit better than a lightweight commander, and is more durable to boot. Also more controllable and just plain nicer to actually shoot.

That said, the best package would probably be a titanium-framed CCO... shoot it all you want, lighter than steel, enough slide to be reliable, and a short but manageable grip.

In 10mm, a lightweight CCO would be a bit much.

 

[Ankeny]

Albert:

Yeppers, that's the one. Love mine. I also have a Kimber CDP Pro Carry just cause the melt down looks cool.

 

[Tamara]

Quintin Likely,

I've got no problem concealing or carrying a full size Government model, although after a day of errands, I'm kinda sorta in the market for something lighter. Is that few extra ounces really noticable?

Although I usually carry a 5" steel gun, I have been favorably impressed with my recently-acquired full-size Springfield Lightweight. At just under 28 ounces unloaded, it's a flyweight for a 5" 1911, and the difference is noticeable after a full day of being on my feet at the shop. If it's been a busy day and I've been on my feet a lot, the steel gun will sometimes cause a sore spot on the point of my opposite-side hipbone, where the belt was riding. This doesn't occur on the days I tote the Lightweight.

Kinda nice to have the benefits of light weight without giving up any barrel length or sight radius. I'd rather have a sore hip than lose those.

 

[Watch-Six]

I have full sized, combat commander and light weight commander equivalents all by Les Baer. I really don't see much advantage to the steel framed combat commander. I usually carry the light weight commander. It is quite a bit lighter. Full sized and light weight both have their places. If I had it to do over again I probably wouldn't bother with the combat commander. Best. Watch-Six

 

[Quintin Likely]

Tam...

The lightweight full size sounds like a good idea...but...the times I am carrying, i.e. not at work, I'm usually spending a good bit of time driving around town running errands, and that extra .75" or so of 1911 makes itself known whenever I'm sitting. That'd probably be my main inspiration for a Commander sized gun, although if I could get that even lighter, then I can have my cake and eat it too

Maybe I should hit the lotto or something and just buy all of the above. heh.

 

[Sean Smith]

Just my opinion, the main advantage of the Combat Commander is that, at least for me, the thing has a darn near perfect subjective feel to it. The lightweight Commanders feel top-heavy and just wierd to me. Definitely alot lighter, though. Also, depending on your build, the longer GM might poke you in the side of the butt a bit more.

Note that my current 1911 is a heavier-than-normal steel Government Model in 10mm.

 

[stans]

In 10mm, a lightweight CCO would be a bit much.

In 10mm, the aluminum frame is not likely to last very long. I think that is the primary reason that Dan Wesson will soon be offering a CCO steel frame. I would not be surprised to see them offer an aluminum frame CCO in 45 ACP if their version of the CCO sells well. I am pondering the possibilities of the 10mm CCO, my current carry piece is a S&W 640-1 stoked with 125 grain magnum loads, so the 10mm would be a good semi-auto with similar ballistic potential.