M-16 bolt carrier in an AR-15

[natedog]

Instead of wading through the poor search system, name calling, and elitism on AR15.com, I decided to ask here- is it legal to use an M-16 bolt carrier in an AR-15, specifically without any other M-16 fire control parts?

 

[Zak Smith]

Yes

 

[PMDW]

From what I understand, having any parts necessary for an auto conversion in an AR15 makes tha gun a machinegun in the eyes of the ATF.

It's really one of those things they can only get you for if you do something else illegal, and for some reason or another they decide to open up your AR.

 

[Zak Smith]

False.

If you possess enough parts to make your AR15 fire F/A, then you possess a machinegun. This is why they (the ATF) recommends against stockpiling M16 parts and AR15 parts -- you just might end up with enough that could be assembled to fire F/A and not know it.

A M16 bolt carrier alone along with normal AR15 parts cannot fire full auto.

A M16 bolt carrier alone along with normal AR15 parts cannot fire full auto.

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=147440

 

[PMDW]

Eh, whatever.

 

[g56]

The parts that make it a full auto are in the trigger group, inside the lower, so an M16 carrier in the upper doesn't even begin to fall into that area.

Like Zak said: A M16 bolt carrier alone along with normal AR15 parts cannot fire full auto.

 

[albanian]

I was under the impression that any M-16 part was illegal for use in an AR-15. I never really understood these laws because some parts are no different between the two. For example, the charging handle is the same for either gun.

I am pretty sure a M-16 bolt carrier is illegal in an AR-15.

 

[Zak Smith]

"There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about."
-- John von Neumann

Anybody who claims it's illegal, feel free to post US Code sections or ATF letters backing up your position.

 

[Third_Rail]

In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.

Link


There you go, Zak.

 

[Zak Smith]

Damn, that's a HUGE page! The context is a list of advice from the ATF.

It actually supports my position:

Any weapon which shoots automatically, more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machinegun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), the National Firearms Act (NFA). In addition, the definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person. An AR-15 type assault rifle which fires more than one shot by a single function of the trigger is a machinegun under the NFA. Any machinegun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered machinegun could subject the possessor to criminal prosecution.

Additionally, these rifles could pose a safety hazard in that they may fire automatically without the user being aware that the weapon will fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger.

In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.

The first and second paragraphs define what a machinegun is. More than one shot per trigger pull = machinegun. They say nothing about any specific part making an AR15 a MG.

The last paragraph says that IF you have none of those parts, THEN you do not have a machinegun.

 

[Third_Rail]

In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles

 

[Steve Smith]

I agree with Zak, AND PMDW, 1 it's not illegal, and 2 it is only going to cause you grief if you have other parts that will insinuate that you are conspiring to build a full auto gun.

FWIW, I have seen MANY M16 carriers used as a way to add some weight to the system and therefore delay cycling...mainly for hot loads.

 

[Zak Smith]

I understand what it says. That sentence means that if you do not have any of those things, then it is impossible for you to have a MG. It does not logically imply that that is the only way to not have a MG. It does not say that a bolt carrier makes it a MG. The first paragraph clearly defines what a MG is.

-z

 

[Third_Rail]

Ok, not specifically forbidden.






When the ATF recommend I don't do something, I don't, though.

 

[Steve Smith]

Agreed. The way I read it, it does not specifically say that those parts make a MG, in fact, the only way to have an MG is for the gun to fit the description if the first sentence.

 

[Zak Smith]

Rereading my last post, I clearly have spent too many hours on the phone with patent lawyers!

With the recent thread "ATF abuses that affect YOU", it's clear that if the ATF is motivated to do so, they will take hammers, files, and other tools to your gun to make to fire multiple times with one trigger pull, even if it destroys the gun and/or kabooms in the process. I've heard they've done things like Epoxy cut receiver halves back together to prove FAL kits were improperly demilled.

That said, an M16 bolt carrier cannot make anything resembling an AR15 trigger group fire full auto.

 

[Third_Rail]

Sure it can! Remove the disconnector, use SOFT primers.

It'll slamfire eventually.

 

[Zak Smith]

In those cases, it's no more true for the FA carrier than it is for the SA carrier.

 

[Third_Rail]

But it would be easier to convince a jury that it was an evil mg if it had the M16 BC in it....


In any case, if I ever get an AR15, no M16 parts for me!!

 

[odysseus]

I have a question...

Why do you want to put a m16 bolt carrier in when there are so many good ar15 ones out there...even chromed? Is there something about it special than the normal market ones out there that won't bring any questions to air?

Why do it?

 

[c_yeager]

Why do it?

Some people like them because they are "mil-spec". IIRC all military carriers are chrome lined. Sometimes they come up cheap as surplus parts (CDNN had a run of complete bolt/carrier assemblies for $99 some time ago). beyond that i can't see much point to it.

 

[Wildalaska]

Dont do it

WildnuffsaidAlaska

 

[PAC 762]

The ATFE has jailed people over a paper clip and a shoe string. If they say not to use M16 carriers, I won't use them. Even if it is legal, the attorney fees will be much more than spending a little more on an AR15 carrier.

 

[Gewehr98]

The ATF's logic is mind-boggling, sometimes.

Somewhere in my stack of FFL regs, there's a questions and answers pamphlet. Some of the recommendations were not to have a complete AR-15 and any M16 parts in the same residence, it would give the appearance of intent to construct a machine gun.

Likewise, when I started my NFA Krinkov project, and ordered my Krinkov parts kit from K-Var, they initially asked me if I had any AK rifles in my residence. When I replied "yes", then they were adament that the Krinkov kit be sent direct from K-Var to the NFA manufacturer of my Krinkov rifle, bypassing my residence. Again, they were afraid that co-location of NFA parts with a non-NFA rifle would constitute intent to manufacture an illegal weapon in the eyes of the ATF.

I used to hate the steel receiver block in my Colt Competition HBAR. Then I realized it would be that much more difficult to have evidence manufactured against me in a crime lab somewhere with that receiver block in place. Scary, when we have to think about such things...

Now, an M16 bolt carrier properly ground to a flat bottom, ala' the AR-15, ain't no big deal.

 

[Onmilo]

Here in the god and gun fearing state of Illinois the use of just one M-16 part in your AR15 can result in the seizure of your rifle.
Most states that allow their citizens to legally posess full automatic weapons nor the law ebforcement officers working in those states are not going to get stupid about one single part.
Here in Illinois that one part can get a person in a whole heap of trouble.
Location and interpetation has everything to do with the enforcement of the law.