M1 Carbine Stock

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WelshShooter said:
What it means, is that a semi-automatic rifle can be made legal if the rifle was manufactured without a gas system, and there is a manual action to extract the case and load the next one. My M1 carbine was made such that there is no gas system, after firing a round the shooter must pull the charging handle backwards and release to load the next round There are many AR-15's made this same way in the UK, but a lot of these conversions are expensive (a standard AR-15 here is around $1,500... I got my M1 carbine for around $500).

However, a semi-automatic rifle (Section 5) cannot be converted and sold as a legal Section 1 firearm, as there is also a rule along the lines of "once a Section 5, always a Section 5".
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The M1 carbine "gas system" is a simple cylinder that is part of the barrel, with a tappet piston that slams back against the front of the operating slide. So, are you saying that your carbine was manufactured with no gas cylinder, or gas port, as part of the barrel? It seems to me that one could take a standard M1 carbine and rebarrel it with such a barrel, but then you'd run afoul of the rule that the receiver was once part of a semiautomatic. Or does the manufacturer have to certify that he used a virgin receiver? (Maybe that would explain why your gun is not a surplus military carbine.)

I am also interested in UK-legal AR-15's. The "gas system" there is a tube that conveys the gas from the port in the barrel to the bolt carrier, which acts as the cylinder / piston. It would be simple just to omit the gas tube, but I don't think that would pass muster because the tube could be easily replaced. So, you'd have to have a barrel with no gas port, and an upper receiver with no hole in the front for a gas tube. Am I correct? (Still, drilling two holes would not be that difficult.) (The gas key on the top of the bolt carrier is needed in order to engage the charging handle. Maybe that would have to be made solid.)

Also, what about the lower receiver in a UK-legal AR-15? Since it has nothing to do with the gas system, it seems that it could be configured in ways that would be illegal here in the U.S., such as by including the full-automatic sear (which would be a complete redundancy in a manually-operated rifle, but still....).

Are there any rules having to do with magazine capacity? For example, can you use standard 15- and 30-round magazines with your carbine?

Finally, what about "safe storage"? Can you keep your carbine at home (with or without an approved safe, and with or without periodic police inspections), or must you keep it at a range or shooting club? Is liability insurance required?

These are all issues that we eventually may have to confront here in the U.S. It's useful to know others' experiences.
 
AlexanderA said:
The M1 carbine "gas system" is a simple cylinder that is part of the barrel, with a tappet piston that slams back against the front of the operating slide. So, are you saying that your carbine was manufactured with no gas cylinder, or gas port, as part of the barrel? It seems to me that one could take a standard M1 carbine and rebarrel it with such a barrel, but then you'd run afoul of the rule that the receiver was once part of a semiautomatic. Or does the manufacturer have to certify that he used a virgin receiver? (Maybe that would explain why your gun is not a surplus military carbine.)
Click to expand...

After disassembling my rifle, the gas port from the barrel has been welded up. I cannot comment on whether the barrel has a port or whether it's a "newly" manufactured barrel without one drilled in. For this to be UK legal, this must have been performed before the rifle was registered in the UK.

As you've rightly put, a Section 5 M1 carbine could not then be converted to be a Section 1 straight pull as the serial number of the receiver has been registered as a Section 5 firearm. Usually, these straight pull conversions are made from a parts bin of components outside of the UK. Here are some notable examples:

Oakrise Arms in the UK sell straight pull M1 Garrand's (Beretta BM-59's) which are made in Italy using parts kits. They also sell straight pull AR-15's manufactured in Luxembourg, more on this below.

http://www.m1garand.co.uk/

AlexanderA said:
I am also interested in UK-legal AR-15's. The "gas system" there is a tube that conveys the gas from the port in the barrel to the bolt carrier, which acts as the cylinder / piston. It would be simple just to omit the gas tube, but I don't think that would pass muster because the tube could be easily replaced. So, you'd have to have a barrel with no gas port, and an upper receiver with no hole in the front for a gas tube. Am I correct? (Still, drilling two holes would not be that difficult.) (The gas key on the top of the bolt carrier is needed in order to engage the charging handle. Maybe that would have to be made solid.)
Click to expand...

This is correct, see the AR-15 mentioned above made by LDT. They use a newly manufactured Lothar Walther barrel (14.5", 16.75" or 20"). As such, these barrels are not drilled for a gas port and there is no gas system. Without modification, the user would have to retract the T-shaped charging handle rearwards and release to chamber the next round, just like you would do when loading the first magazine.

http://www.m1garand.co.uk/luxdeftec-ar15-mlr-new/

Some companies also put a charging handle directly onto the bolt, which makes extracting a round and chambering another much easier and ergonomic than using the existing charging handle. The shooter can retain their cheek weld and chamber the next round.

http://www.southern-gun.co.uk/example-gun-build/#223sp

AlexanderA said:
Also, what about the lower receiver in a UK-legal AR-15? Since it has nothing to do with the gas system, it seems that it could be configured in ways that would be illegal here in the U.S., such as by including the full-automatic sear (which would be a complete redundancy in a manually-operated rifle, but still....).
Click to expand...

Very good question, and it's covered by Southern Gun Company on their home page:

Since we started producing these rifles, we have been aware of the laws concerning the conversion of semi automatic weapons to Section 1 UK legal firearms, we have therefor either made our own major component (the lower receiver) or in the early days contracted an American company to do that for us and register the serial nos with the US BATF as single shot only at manufacture. The serial nos of lower receivers purchased from the US without that specific registration are listed by the BATF as semi automatic or fully automatic rifles ( in the USA the lower is the rifle ) the implication is clear. Should you decide to purchase from another source your rifle, for your own security, ensure that this has been done.

AlexanderA said:
Are there any rules having to do with magazine capacity? For example, can you use standard 15- and 30-round magazines with your carbine?
Click to expand...

Nope, magazine capacity is not in legislation for firearms, so if you had a 100 round magazine then load and shoot to your hearts content. Shotguns are a different matter. Shotguns which are held on a shotgun certificate (SGC) cannot exceed a 2+1 capacity, otherwise said firearm must be held on a firearms certificate (FAC). Most shotguns come with a tubular magazine size to cater for this. Semi-automatic shotguns are legal; and one upcoming sport in the UK is Practical Shotgun (PSG). People use semi-automatic shotguns and slug ammunition for quick paced target shooting, not too dissimilar to 3-gun competitions you have in the US. These shotguns must be held on an FAC as the capacity is greater than 2+1 and slugs can only be bought by FAC holders. It's a daft way to go around the law to shoot a "real" semi-automatic firearm but it allows people to buy Benelli M4's, Saiga's etc.


AlexanderA said:
Finally, what about "safe storage"? Can you keep your carbine at home (with or without an approved safe, and with or without periodic police inspections), or must you keep it at a range or shooting club? Is liability insurance required?

These are all issues that we eventually may have to confront here in the U.S. It's useful to know others' experiences.
Click to expand...

Yes, you can keep firearms at your home address and must be stored in a safe which is securely fixed to a wall or floor. When you apply for your FAC a Firearms Enquiry Officer (FEO) will come to your address and inspect the safe. During my first visit, the FEO asked me to open the safe and then tried to violently rip it off the wall! The safe obviously didn't budge and he was happy with this.

FAC's are renewed every 5 years (I've held mine for 7 years), and upon renewal an FEO came round to inspect my safe and to confirm the presence of the rifles which they were aware I owned. Before you can buy a firearm, you must request a slot on your certificate to allow you to purchase said firearm and you must give a good reason for this. For example, you could have "lever action .357 for gallery range shooting" or "bolt action .308 for target shooting". When you purchase a firearm, this is entered on your FAC and you must notify the Police of the sale within 7 working days and include details on the firearms purchased (inc. serial number). When the FEO came around to inspect my safe, he was ticking off his list of firearms that I have acquired and confirming that they were present.

Insurance isn't required as far as I'm aware. I don't have specific gun insurance, but it's covered under my home insurance.

To finish off your last statement regarding issues you would face in the US; my recommendation to you (which you are most likely already doing) is to resist any type of ban being implemented towards your shooting sports. Honestly, even if it's seems logical, fight against it as the anti-gun people will never be happy. Stricter laws never apply to criminals, only to law abiding citizens.
 
So I got back from the range tonight having shot this rifle. I was only shooting at 25m using my light gallery loads (4.5gr Accurate No.2 ; 115gr Lead RN bullet). 25 rounds downrange and the rifle functioned flawlessly, no rubbing on the wood and no rattling about, the receiver felt solid in the wood after assembling correctly (bumping the butt so the receiver beds into the tab). I nipped the barrel band screw up after a few rounds and now it's nice a tight. Grouping was as expected, a fist sized group, it does shoot better using standard GI load.

Here is a video I made back in December 2016, which shows the function of the rifle in straight pull instead of semi-automatic and me shooting my gallery load at the indoor range (notice how quiet it is and lack of recoil). I apologise in advance for any patriotic American's who may feel a bit depressed watching this video...

 
Thanks for posting that. This is a lesson in what we cannot let happen here.

And I can't believe the price of those AR15's. I wish I could sell AR's with no gas port or block for $2000! :uhoh:
 
WelshShooter said:
As you've rightly put, a Section 5 M1 carbine could not then be converted to be a Section 1 straight pull as the serial number of the receiver has been registered as a Section 5 firearm. Usually, these straight pull conversions are made from a parts bin of components outside of the UK.
Click to expand...
Very interesting. It appears, then, that it doesn't matter if the receiver was previously part of a semiautomatic rifle outside the UK, as long as it was never registered as a Section 5 firearm within the UK. That explains how Beretta or Breda receivers can used to make UK-compliant M1 Garands.
WelshShooter said:
Since we started producing these rifles, we have been aware of the laws concerning the conversion of semi automatic weapons to Section 1 UK legal firearms, we have therefor either made our own major component (the lower receiver) or in the early days contracted an American company to do that for us and register the serial nos with the US BATF as single shot only at manufacture. The serial nos of lower receivers purchased from the US without that specific registration are listed by the BATF as semi automatic or fully automatic rifles ( in the USA the lower is the rifle ) the implication is clear.
Click to expand...
This seems to contradict the situation with the Italian M1 receivers. If an AR-15 lower receiver arrives in the UK in an unassembled condition, having never been assembled into a rifle, it seems that the Section 5 restriction wouldn't apply. This is very confusing, to say the least. By the way, the U.S. BATF doesn't list bare AR-15 receivers as rifles. They are transferred in a category called "other," because they can be assembled as either pistols or rifles. (If they are first assembled as pistols, they can later be made into rifles, but if they are first assembled as rifles, they cannot legally be made into pistols.) It appears that the Southern Gun Company is somewhat misinformed.

Also, fully automatic AR lower receivers are categorized as "machine guns," which are neither rifles nor pistols. Civilians generally cannot own machine guns made after May 19, 1986. Could they be exported to the UK and made into manually-operated rifles there? Even thinking about that is surreal!
 
Do you have access to any reloading components ? Specifically powder and primers ??
kwg
 
We absolutely do! Handloading is very popular in the UK due to the cost of ammunition. I handload all of my centrefire calibres. We have access to pretty much all your normal components, however, there are a lot of Hodgdon, Alliant and IMR(?) powders which are due to be banned as they will not be REACH complaint (an EU directive). These powders contain a harmful substance which REACH will ban. This means no more H110 for 30carbine or 357mag, so I am stockpiling and finding an alternative :(
 
WelshShooter said:
We absolutely do! Handloading is very popular in the UK due to the cost of ammunition. I handload all of my centrefire calibres. We have access to pretty much all your normal components, however, there are a lot of Hodgdon, Alliant and IMR(?) powders which are due to be banned as they will not be REACH complaint (an EU directive). These powders contain a harmful substance which REACH will ban. This means no more H110 for 30carbine or 357mag, so I am stockpiling and finding an alternative :(
Click to expand...

Nice work on the stock and sorry that you are having to switch powders. From what I understand, the newer ATK and other U.S. powders are designed to be produced in a more ecologically friendly way that might be compliant with EU REACH laws in the future.

Had the pleasure to visit Wales a few years ago and it is a lovely area filled with lovely people with some spectacular scenery. Thanks for answering some questions about the firearms laws in UK btw.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
I wish I would have seen this post back when it was originally posted. If you do decide to repair your stock here are two of my repair post over at Surplus Rifle Forum.

How to make a blind wrist repair
https://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=96

How to make a Splice Repairs
https://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=245
Click to expand...
Cheers Gunny! In fairness, some of the other members directed me to some repair instructions but it's always nice to learn more. Having read through the two sets of instructions, it sounds pretty straight forward and your M1 carbine splice came out really well.

I will bear these in mind for my replacement stock, should anything go wrong. Curiously, how does the recoil plate cause these breakages in the first place? My rifle was bought used so the damage may have been done before I bought it. I install the plate using standard instructions of screwing the plate in, then angling the receiver in and bumping the butt pad so the receiver bites into the plate.

Also, I knew that Carbine stocks are non existent in the UK, so figured with my "apprentice" level carpentry aptitude I was better off not ruining stock and get a replacement so that I can keep shooting my rifle.
 
boom boom said:
Nice work on the stock and sorry that you are having to switch powders. From what I understand, the newer ATK and other U.S. powders are designed to be produced in a more ecologically friendly way that might be compliant with EU REACH laws in the future.

Had the pleasure to visit Wales a few years ago and it is a lovely area filled with lovely people with some spectacular scenery. Thanks for answering some questions about the firearms laws in UK btw.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your kind words! I am very fortunate with my location in Wales. We have coasts, beaches, mountains, castles, cities, country and a good amount of shooting ranges (funnily enough) all within an hours drive. Did I mention the rain?

Always happy to pass on information about the current state of our gun laws and shooting in the UK in general, and let it always remind to you guys to never let you guard down!
 
WelshShooter said:
Cheers Gunny! In fairness, some of the other members directed me to some repair instructions but it's always nice to learn more. Having read through the two sets of instructions, it sounds pretty straight forward and your M1 carbine splice came out really well.

I will bear these in mind for my replacement stock, should anything go wrong. Curiously, how does the recoil plate cause these breakages in the first place? My rifle was bought used so the damage may have been done before I bought it. I install the plate using standard instructions of screwing the plate in, then angling the receiver in and bumping the butt pad so the receiver bites into the plate.

Also, I knew that Carbine stocks are non existent in the UK, so figured with my "apprentice" level carpentry aptitude I was better off not ruining stock and get a replacement so that I can keep shooting my rifle.
Click to expand...
The recoil plate needs to be firmly against the stock. Improperly fitted or the wood shrinking over time can cause the damage you had. When firing the action will hammer the recoil plate into the stock.
To check, remove the rifle from the stock. With just the recoil plate make sure that it fits snug in the stock but not tight. If there is play a little bedding will fix it.
I’ve been doing stock work for over 30 years. There is more then one way to skin a cat, and even more ways to do repairs.
I like to break my repairs down into steps to make them easy to follow. Most of the stock repair post at SRF are by me. If you have time read through them and they will answer just about any stock repair question.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
The recoil plate needs to be firmly against the stock. Improperly fitted or the wood shrinking over time can cause the damage you had. When firing the action will hammer the recoil plate into the stock.
To check, remove the rifle from the stock. With just the recoil plate make sure that it fits snug in the stock but not tight. If there is play a little bedding will fix it.
I’ve been doing stock work for over 30 years. There is more then one way to skin a cat, and even more ways to do repairs.
I like to break my repairs down into steps to make them easy to follow. Most of the stock repair post at SRF are by me. If you have time read through them and they will answer just about any stock repair question.
Click to expand...
That's awesome, thank you for your hard work and for sharing this information.
 
Took M1 carbine to the 100m range and did ok! 14.6gr of H110 using a 110gr jacketed round nose bullet nets me an average velocity of 2,039fps. Accuracy wasn't too impressive, around 4" grouping, but I suspect that's because I'm not yet used to the heavy trigger pull (7lb versus <3lb on my other rifles).

When I got home to clean the rifle, I used this time to inspect the bore. As expected, there is no gas port drilled into the bore. See the attached picture where I have taken a picture from the muzzle towards the receiver. The bore is nice and shiny with no obvious hole which has been drilled for porting the gas. It was pretty difficult trying to reflect light into the chamber, focusing my phone camera and aligning to the muzzle, so this is as clear as I can get it!

20180414_152825_768x1024.jpg
 
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