M1 Carbine, what do you think?

[rustymaggot]

in my opinion,the only fault of the m1 carbine is that ammo isnt available everywhere for it. in an extended emergency situation your stuck with the ammo you have on hand. if more prople shot their m1 carbines the ammo would be more common and in better varieties.

everything good you have heard about the m1 carbine is probably true.

most of the bad youve heard is exagerated, misunderstood info, or flat out lies.

 

[Limeyfellow]

Quite a number of people got issued the M1 Carbine on Iwo Jima, including my wife's uncle who was a forward observer. They were cheaper and quicker to produce so some in the front lines got them too. The basic idea for them originally was that soldiers were so bad with the M1911 that they couldn't qualify and the Garand was too overpowering and large that it got in the way as well as costing a rather pretty penny. So they came up with a handy little carbine to be issued to support troops (we must remember that makes up the vast majority of the military).

The M1 carbine is pretty darn good at a 100 yards up to about 150 yards, with sp or hp rounds. Its also been pretty common to be used by police in a number of countries from Germany, Israel, South Korea, Vietnam, Brazil and others.

The Auto-ordinance M1 carbines are typically GI spec and work fine. Worth a look at if you want one as a shooter, but many people collect them for historical value too.

 

[ScottsGT]

Just so happens I was at a local gunshop this am picking up an SKS. So I'd been handling the SKS's and picking out the one I wanted. It also happens that I've been watching CMP as they prepare to offer M1 carbines. (And by the way, I would bet money they begin offering the carbines about two weeks from TODAY!) So after handling all those SKS's, I noticed an M1 carbine hanging on the wall. OMG! Love at first touch. I couldn't get over how light it was and how compact it was. A thing of beauty. This on top of all I hear about them being the most beloved plinkers around.

OK, just what info do you have here According to the CMP forums, it looks like they are going to be delayed even further, back to April.

 

[Trebor]

The M1 Carbine was issued as a primary weapon to troops whose primary function was something other than front line combat.

That's an oversimplification. While the carbine was designed for "rear echelon" troops, it was actually *issued* to plenty of troops whose primary duty was front line combat. I've seen Tables of Organization and Equipment for infantry companies in the ETO where the M-1 Carbine was specified for specific personal down to the squad level. Often those were non-coms, not just officers.

The Airborne units also issued M-1 and M1A1 carbines to paratroopers and glider infantrymen. Not just to officers or "rear echelon" personal either. (Btw, while the M1A1 was designed exclusively for airborne use, the paratroopers were also issued standard M-1 Carbines at times.)
directing others.

The USMC issued the carbine in large numbers in the Pacific campaigns. It proved popular in the short range fighting in the jungles.

Merrill's Marauders used the carbine extensively in the CBI.

The reading I've done indicates that the carbine was the second common shoulder arm in U.S. use in "front line" units, after the Garand. The rear echelon units often were issued Springfields so the Garands and Carbines could be reserved for the front line units.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

That's an oversimplification. While the carbine was designed for "rear echelon" troops, it was actually *issued* to plenty of troops whose primary duty was front line combat.

I agree I oversimplified that, but generally my statement is correct in practice, and certainly in theory. Front line issue was not the reason the carbine was developed. What the carbine was designed for, and what the army may have actually used it for, are not necessarily the same. The intended purpose of the carbine was to be a replacement for a handgun.

 

[The Rifleman]

Quite a few people got what I said the first time. It was not the standard issue weapon.. I doubt if Audie Murphy carried one in the field as a first line of defense weapon.

Like others have said they were cheaper to manufacture than a pistol.

They were primarily issued to cooks and truck drivers and other non combative personel.

The thought was that if you got in a battle that you could fight with it until you saw a good weapon laying on the ground. Pick it up and continue fighting.

Anyone that saw the Audie Murphy movie would tell you that they were fighting Italians - not the Germans or the Japaneese in that movie.

You give me a good Korean soldier with full winter garb and he will walk up to you and take that gun off of you and hit you with it. The bullet wouldn't even penetrate his clothing.

Anyone that served in the military would tell you just how safe he feels knowing that he is equipped by a government that bought all his gear from companies that submitted the lowest bid for the equipment he carries into battle.

 

[Trebor]

Lone Gunman said:

What the carbine was designed for, and what the army may have actually used it for, are not necessarily the same. The intended purpose of the carbine was to be a replacement for a handgun.

Very true. It was designed to replace or supplment the handgun on the theory that a small rifle would be much easier to shoot than a handgun for troops that didn't need the standard service rifle.

The only problem I have with the oversimplification is there seems to be this widespread belief that since the carbine was *intended* for "non combative" personal, it was actually only issued to those kinds of troops. What the army planned to do with the carbine and how the carbine was actually issued in WWII were two different things. In reality, all sorts of "front line" troops were issued the carbine. They didn't all just get a carbine from some cook or truck driver in a trade.

The Rifleman said:

I doubt if Audie Murphy carried one in the field as a first line of defense weapon.

Actually, Audi Murphy said in his autobiography that he prefered the carbine. He was armed with a carbine during the action where he was awarded the Medal of Honor. (Granted, he also used a vehicle mounted .50 M2HB in that fight).

As to the effectiveness of the M-1 Carbine, and what the soldiers thought of it, that's a different issue. From what I've read, troops in combat either loved the carbine or hated it. There was no middle ground. Some found it light, handy, and a good weapon. Other soldiers didn't think it had the "stopping power" of the Garand on a human target or didn't like the lack of barrier penetration when compared to the .30 - '06 round.

The Marines liked the carbine in the Pacific during WWII, but pretty much took the carbine out of service after it reportedly failed in the harsh winter conditions in the Korean War.

John George was a pre-war High Power competitor who served as an officer in "Merrills Marauders" in WII. In his book, "Shots Fired in Anger, " he wrote:

"The M1 carbine turned out to be the ace weapon of the war, as far as I am concerned. It was light and handy, powerful, and reasonably accurate ... The cartridge was powerful enough to penetrate several thicknesses of helmet, and to perforate the plates of the Japanese bulletproof vest, which would only be dented by .45 auto slugs. It was flat shooting enough to have practical accuracy at more than 200 yards ... For many types of offensive fighting, such as sneak raids and infiltration tactics, it was often superior even to the M1 (Garand), penetration being the only point of difference."

The previous quote is from this magazine article, btw: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_6_47/ai_74033105/pg_2

In "modern" usage, Jim Cirralo reported that the NYPD "stakeout squad" had great success with the carbine loaded with "soft point" loads in the 1970's.

 

[USSR]

You give me a good Korean soldier with full winter garb and he will walk up to you and take that gun off of you and hit you with it. The bullet wouldn't even penetrate his clothing.

The Rifleman,

Here's the telogreika (padded coat - exactly what was worn for winter combat by the Russians, Chinese, and NK's). You are welcome to play the role of the Korean soldier to test your penetration theory. Please have your next of kin contact us to tell us how your test went.

Don

 

[zinj]

You give me a good Korean soldier with full winter garb and he will walk up to you and take that gun off of you and hit you with it. The bullet wouldn't even penetrate his clothing.

Uh huh. You obviously don't have the faintest understanding of terminal ballistics.

Back on topic, the carbine is almost a proto-assault rifle, being lighter than a full-size battle rifle and having a high capacity magazines. The M2 moreso because it is select fire. If it was chambered in necked down version of the .30 carbine caliber it would be a bit hotter than the 5.7x28 FN. Far ahead of its time.

 

[SaMx]

http://www.thegunzone.com/carbine-wildcat.html

 

[M2 Carbine]

zinj
Back on topic, the carbine is almost a proto-assault rifle, being lighter than a full-size battle rifle and having a high capacity magazines. The M2 moreso because it is select fire. If it was chambered in necked down version of the .30 carbine caliber it would be a bit hotter than the 5.7x28 FN. Far ahead of its time.

The 30 cal Carbine round has been necked down for many years. It's called the 5.7 Johnson.
As recently as a few years ago IAI (Houston) was selling their M1 Carbine in the 5.7 cal.

I had an original Johnson and a second M1 Carbine that I re-barreled to 5.7. The original was lost in a fire.

Reloading dies and case forming dies are still sold.

The standard bullet is the 40 grain Hornet that does an even 3,000fps from that short barrel.
The 5.7 Johnson just never caught on.

This is my Carbine reload next to the FN 5.7.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Quote:
You give me a good Korean soldier with full winter garb and he will walk up to you and take that gun off of you and hit you with it. The bullet wouldn't even penetrate his clothing.
The Rifleman,

this is a GROSS oversimplifiaction. The chinese were wearing winter combat gear due to the extreme cold. Now what happens to velocities with ammo loaded with older type powders when the temp is EXTREMELY cold.

Put 2 and 2 together...................


I've always been of the opinion that the M1 carbine was in a rather unique position of being able to replace a SMG and yet still offered assualt rifle like range and accuracy.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

The Rifleman Quoted:

Anyone that served in the military would tell you just how safe he feels knowing that he is equipped by a government that bought all his gear from companies that submitted the lowest bid for the equipment he carries into battle

The U.S. Military won World War Two on Beans, Bullets, Food and some of the best equipped soldiers in the world. You (The Rifleman) have never seen poorly equipped and a sad lot of soviet soldiers who were supposed to be a world power. I did. Their equipment was junk. They were junk. Missing teeth. Uniforms worn out. I knew for a fact that we could have beaten the snot out of the Russians had we been forced down to the wire. I am not talking lesser third world country here although some will qualify Russia as so.
You can talk bad about military all that you want but you are cordially invited to come up here to the Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland. I will happily take arrange to sign you on post and take you on a tour of the Research and Development Center they have here. Be prepared to stay a long time, you will be Uncle Sam's guest at my pleasure.
Our soldiers have first rate equipment.

 

[jerkyman45]

The carbine wasn't just issued to non combat personel, but also to paratroopers and radio operators. The paratroopers were sometimes issued a type of carbine with a folding stock, and radio operators used the carbine because they had to lug around the heavy field radio all the time, these guys are on the front lines, and they used the carbine, it was by all accounts that I have seen a fine firearm that did exactly what it was intended to do.

 

[Warbow]

Anyone that served in the military would tell you just how safe he feels knowing that he is equipped by a government that bought all his gear from companies that submitted the lowest bid for the equipment he carries into battle.

Another oversimplification.

All equipment solicited has to meet the specifications put forth. Lowest bidder does not necessarily mean lowest quality because if the company's product does not hold up to the needed specs. it's not going to win them a contract.

 

[Ala Dan]

Original M-1 Carbines are great weapons; but kind'a pricey- also, make sure
that you check out the rising cost of .30 caliber carbine ammo.

 

[CZ 75 BD]

I will be at the Anniston CMP South store with the checkbook on the first morning they are on sale.

 

[ScottsGT]

CZ, you want to pick me one up while your at it? I think the wait is going to kill me! Might be worth me driving 6 hours one way to be there too!

 

[vanfunk]

I love the little war baby. They're handy, light recoiling, accurate within their effective range, handsome, and fun to collect. No, they're not the hammer of Thor, but jeez, what's not to like about a 5.5 lb, .30 cal weapon with decent oomph that's easy to hit with out to 200 yards? The only person I know who has combat experience (WWII - Europe) with one has remarked that everyone he shot with it promptly cooperated by stopping whatever they were doing.

USGI carbines in good condition are still available at reasonable prices, but you have to look alot harder to find them nowadays. I picked up a Winchester 4 months ago for $425, and a Quality Hardware last week for $500.

HTH,
vanfunk

 

[M2 Carbine]

A friend shooting one of my Carbines.

(click on the picture)

 

[BrennanKG]

M2,

I am SO VERY envious of you.

Sweet carbine, sir!


My M1 carbine is the only firearm I really regretted letting go, especially years later with a petite wife and daughter. I definitely need another one, or two.


B.

 

[JShirley]

What other caliber would you compare the ballistics to?

7.62x25mm subgun

What could I hunt with it?

Deer at close range.

Would it be a good home-defense weapon?

It would be excellent, especially with expanding ammunition.

What would be the maximum effective range for engaging a target (assuming one is a pretty good shot with rifles)?

About 200 meters- protection, not hunting.

What's your overall opinion of the rifle?

I bought one after I had purchased an AR15. It fulfilled the mission I had envisioned for the AR more handily, at half the cost.

 

[tinygnat219]

Well, since over 6 million of these were made in WWII, more than any other rifle, it definitely had its fans and detractors. I have 3 of these little puppies and they are fun to shoot with.

 

[M2 Carbine]

BrennanKG
My M1 carbine is the only firearm I really regretted letting go, especially years later with a petite wife and daughter. I definitely need another one, or two.

The Carbine was my Wife's favorite rifle.
When I got my first one, about 1962 through the NRA, I told Her to shoot it. She could handle anything but didn't like to shoot hard kicking guns. I held the Carbine out and shot it one handed like a pistol to show Her there was little recoil. From then on I spent a lot of time loading magazines for Her.

 

[plexreticle]

M2 carbine is just about the perfect weapon for close encounters.

M1 is good and M2 is amazing.