M1 Garand loads ?
- Thread starter Mantis
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Your post brings a lot of thoughts to mind.
1. Do get that Garand!!!! There are lots of rifles that will do better at
most things than a Garand but none with such style! The history, reasonable costs, esthetic value, intrinisc coolness of the enblock clip is enough to make it worth while!!!
2. Consider not reloading for this gun. Military gas guns with the floating firing pin, Gas system and vigorous feeding/ejection cycles dont lend themselves to casual reloading like a bolt gun. Smaller envelope to work with.
With the cost of surplus ammo being at near historical lows, and the Super Quality Korean (PMC) M2 Ball surplus easy to get in 400 round lots from on line retailers for 75 dollars, reloading seems almost pointless. Certianly not worth the added risk.
Just how good you ask? Check out this 200 yard group of 2 1/4 inches fired from a CMP Garand purchased from a Forum member.
www.aimsurplus.com has this ammo for 150 dollars for 2 ammo cans full (800 rounds) plus shipping. I bought seven cans and the cost of shipping was only 95 dollars. Just over 200 dollars for 1000 rounds. Cheap as shooting pistols!
1. Do get that Garand!!!! There are lots of rifles that will do better at
most things than a Garand but none with such style! The history, reasonable costs, esthetic value, intrinisc coolness of the enblock clip is enough to make it worth while!!!
2. Consider not reloading for this gun. Military gas guns with the floating firing pin, Gas system and vigorous feeding/ejection cycles dont lend themselves to casual reloading like a bolt gun. Smaller envelope to work with.
With the cost of surplus ammo being at near historical lows, and the Super Quality Korean (PMC) M2 Ball surplus easy to get in 400 round lots from on line retailers for 75 dollars, reloading seems almost pointless. Certianly not worth the added risk.
Just how good you ask? Check out this 200 yard group of 2 1/4 inches fired from a CMP Garand purchased from a Forum member.
www.aimsurplus.com has this ammo for 150 dollars for 2 ammo cans full (800 rounds) plus shipping. I bought seven cans and the cost of shipping was only 95 dollars. Just over 200 dollars for 1000 rounds. Cheap as shooting pistols!
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Steve in PA
Member
There is absolutely nothing wrong with reloading for the Garand or any other rifle. People have been doing it for years.
The most popluar loads are 45-49gr of IMR-4895 with 147-150gr bullets. A few grains less powder for the 168gr+ bullets.
You can also use IMR-4064, Varget and a few others.
Once the surplus of .30/06 runs out, you'll be reloading any way.
Since the standard for M1's rolling off the mills during production was 4" @ 100yds, the rifle used for the pic above must really be something. The shooter should be at Camp Perry with that rifle.
The most popluar loads are 45-49gr of IMR-4895 with 147-150gr bullets. A few grains less powder for the 168gr+ bullets.
You can also use IMR-4064, Varget and a few others.
Once the surplus of .30/06 runs out, you'll be reloading any way.
Since the standard for M1's rolling off the mills during production was 4" @ 100yds, the rifle used for the pic above must really be something. The shooter should be at Camp Perry with that rifle.
Now Steve I know I must be mistaken, but I sure do sense some tone in your reply.
I think you are wrong about that 4 inch standard. I am pretty certian it was 2 1/2 inch as the standard.
Yes that group was shot from the bench, from a rifle I bought on this forum from a member named "ejohn". It did shoot this group at 200 yards with the Korean ball. It caused quite a uproar amongst my shooting buddies
at the Laguna Seca Range in Salinas California.
Laguna Seca Shooting Sports Association
1025 Monterey-Salinas Hwy
Salinas, CA 93908
(831) 757-6317
The range master that loaned me the ruler to measure the group center is named Jeromey. Give him a call. He saw the shot string and the group.
I stand buy my comments that there are other guns more suited to reloading.
So do many other folks. However, feel free to do so. At the very least I would put each round you load for a gas gun into a Case gage. I would make sure you use the special Military type "hard" primers. I also would suggest really limiting the number of times you reload your brass to just 2. I would also make sure you use powder, and bullet weights designed to give the correct pressure curve so you don't bend your op rod.
Or you could just by some good surplus for less money and go shoot.
Noted experts speaks to reloading for Gas guns
Whew........ I feel like I got called out. Steve a few hundred years ago I think we would be dueling about now.
I think you are wrong about that 4 inch standard. I am pretty certian it was 2 1/2 inch as the standard.
Yes that group was shot from the bench, from a rifle I bought on this forum from a member named "ejohn". It did shoot this group at 200 yards with the Korean ball. It caused quite a uproar amongst my shooting buddies
at the Laguna Seca Range in Salinas California.
Laguna Seca Shooting Sports Association
1025 Monterey-Salinas Hwy
Salinas, CA 93908
(831) 757-6317
The range master that loaned me the ruler to measure the group center is named Jeromey. Give him a call. He saw the shot string and the group.
I stand buy my comments that there are other guns more suited to reloading.
So do many other folks. However, feel free to do so. At the very least I would put each round you load for a gas gun into a Case gage. I would make sure you use the special Military type "hard" primers. I also would suggest really limiting the number of times you reload your brass to just 2. I would also make sure you use powder, and bullet weights designed to give the correct pressure curve so you don't bend your op rod.
Or you could just by some good surplus for less money and go shoot.
Noted experts speaks to reloading for Gas guns
Whew........ I feel like I got called out. Steve a few hundred years ago I think we would be dueling about now.
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HankB
Member
CMP M1 Garands are great . . . I bought my first earlier this year.
Here's an attached picture of a typical group fired using USGI LC72 milsurp ammo . . . group is 2" high by 3" wide. Unlike bigjim, this group was fired at 100 yards. (That's a 25 yard pistol target I used.)
Bigjim's 200 yard group is exceptional, especially if he can repeat it on demand.
Be advised, that Korean ammo comes in two flavors . . . KA- ammo is corrosive, PS- ammo is not, but there are some specific lots of the latter that are considered bad . . . if you consider rifle kabooms to be a bad thing.
Here's an attached picture of a typical group fired using USGI LC72 milsurp ammo . . . group is 2" high by 3" wide. Unlike bigjim, this group was fired at 100 yards. (That's a 25 yard pistol target I used.)
Bigjim's 200 yard group is exceptional, especially if he can repeat it on demand.
Be advised, that Korean ammo comes in two flavors . . . KA- ammo is corrosive, PS- ammo is not, but there are some specific lots of the latter that are considered bad . . . if you consider rifle kabooms to be a bad thing.
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Hank,
This rifle with this ammo has shot several groups at 100 yards of under 1.5 inch. Could I repeat that 200 yard group on demand? Probably not. That does not change that fact
that it did happen. I posted pictures and a phone number to a wittness. I am not sure just what the hell you guys want for proof. It is a plain old CMP gun with a great bore and I added a match sight set and one of the BJONES -.5 correction lens to the rear sight. That way I can see the target.
I will be at the Laguna Seca range Sunday if anyone wants to shoot it. I can get a note from my mommy if you want? :banghead:
This rifle with this ammo has shot several groups at 100 yards of under 1.5 inch. Could I repeat that 200 yard group on demand? Probably not. That does not change that fact
that it did happen. I posted pictures and a phone number to a wittness. I am not sure just what the hell you guys want for proof. It is a plain old CMP gun with a great bore and I added a match sight set and one of the BJONES -.5 correction lens to the rear sight. That way I can see the target.
I will be at the Laguna Seca range Sunday if anyone wants to shoot it. I can get a note from my mommy if you want? :banghead:
HankB
Member
bigjim . . .easy, man, easy. Take a deep breath. Reread my post. I never said you didn't shoot the 200 yard group as you said, I only said it was exceptional . . . but to be honest, it's not an example of the rifle/shooter combo's accuracy capability unless it can be repeated on demand.
The 1.5" groups at 100 yards you're regularly getting from your M1 are nothing to sneeze at, and are a bit better than I can routinely accomplish.
When I was in college, I once shot a 1/4" group from my .30/06 Model 70 . . . I did a little figuring at the time, and given the rifle's normal accuracy and shot distribution, predicted I'd wear out the barrel before I duplicated it. (So far, my prediction is proving right.
)
I still have the target I used to shoot that 1/4" group, but statistical flukes don't represent the rifle's real accuracy.
The 1.5" groups at 100 yards you're regularly getting from your M1 are nothing to sneeze at, and are a bit better than I can routinely accomplish.
When I was in college, I once shot a 1/4" group from my .30/06 Model 70 . . . I did a little figuring at the time, and given the rifle's normal accuracy and shot distribution, predicted I'd wear out the barrel before I duplicated it. (So far, my prediction is proving right.
)I still have the target I used to shoot that 1/4" group, but statistical flukes don't represent the rifle's real accuracy.
Steve in PA
Member
Check out any of the Garand sites such as Battlerifles and CSP, people with alot more knowledge than I have said the maximum standard was 4" at 100yds.
2 1/2-3" is usually the norm at 100yds for a box stock, non-accurized M1 Garand. Anything better than that would be considered an exceptional rifle.
2 1/2-3" is usually the norm at 100yds for a box stock, non-accurized M1 Garand. Anything better than that would be considered an exceptional rifle.
ACP230
Member
I bought a Korean returnee Garand from Woolworths in the mid 1980s.
I was shooting NRA High Power matches then and used the Garand in competition until I bought an M1A a few years later.
I started reloading for the M1 after shooting a couple of matches with commercial ammo. I used CCI large rifle primers, H4895 and Winchester 147 grain FMJ boattailed bullets. The bullets were military overruns, or from pulled-down ammo. They shot a lot better than folks said they would. At 200 yards from prone once I put 11 rounds into a group about as big as the opening of a coffee mug. (I just measured and that's three inches.) It was in the wrong place on the target, but that's another story.
I found that if I followd the safety rules, trimmed my cases when needed, and didn't try to make heavy loads, the Garand was no problem to reload for. I had reloaded for an M1917 Enfield and a Browning BAR hunting rifle before. The Garand wasn't any more problem than either of them.
I was shooting NRA High Power matches then and used the Garand in competition until I bought an M1A a few years later.
I started reloading for the M1 after shooting a couple of matches with commercial ammo. I used CCI large rifle primers, H4895 and Winchester 147 grain FMJ boattailed bullets. The bullets were military overruns, or from pulled-down ammo. They shot a lot better than folks said they would. At 200 yards from prone once I put 11 rounds into a group about as big as the opening of a coffee mug. (I just measured and that's three inches.) It was in the wrong place on the target, but that's another story.
I found that if I followd the safety rules, trimmed my cases when needed, and didn't try to make heavy loads, the Garand was no problem to reload for. I had reloaded for an M1917 Enfield and a Browning BAR hunting rifle before. The Garand wasn't any more problem than either of them.
Sunray
Member
"...dont lend themselves to casual reloading..." Hmmm. I've used nothing but reloads in mine for years. There's no surplus .30-06 ammo up here. Nor is there anything like your CMP. No fuss or bother as long as you full length resize every time.
neolithic hunter
Member
m1 grand is grand
i'm an old man and a 2 1/2" would not win or place in the matches i go to. we all shoot grands and when we shot 100 yard reduced targets 3/4" to 1" placed in the right place on the target is what wins. we usually start at 200, go to 300 then to 600 yrds. a 2 1/2" group at 200 would put you out of the compatition. 2 1/2" would be competitve at 300 but not a winner. at 600 you had better be in the less than 5" range to take anything home. and yes a properly setup grand in the right hands can shoot extreemly small groups i shoot a fulton armory perless m1a and with a scope and lc 66 match ammo it will shoot 1/2 to 3/4" all day. i may not be able to all day but the rilfe can. i also shoot a perless m1 in 30.06 and on a good day for me it will shoot inside 1" @ 100 yrds. last match i was at, had a 17 yr old kid next to me out shoot me and every one else by 50 points and that is alot. somedays chicken somedays feathers.
:banghead:
i'm an old man and a 2 1/2" would not win or place in the matches i go to. we all shoot grands and when we shot 100 yard reduced targets 3/4" to 1" placed in the right place on the target is what wins. we usually start at 200, go to 300 then to 600 yrds. a 2 1/2" group at 200 would put you out of the compatition. 2 1/2" would be competitve at 300 but not a winner. at 600 you had better be in the less than 5" range to take anything home. and yes a properly setup grand in the right hands can shoot extreemly small groups i shoot a fulton armory perless m1a and with a scope and lc 66 match ammo it will shoot 1/2 to 3/4" all day. i may not be able to all day but the rilfe can. i also shoot a perless m1 in 30.06 and on a good day for me it will shoot inside 1" @ 100 yrds. last match i was at, had a 17 yr old kid next to me out shoot me and every one else by 50 points and that is alot. somedays chicken somedays feathers.
:banghead:Paul "Fitz" Jones
Moderator - Emeritus
The Garand
When In high school my welding instructor was also my machine shop and gunsmithing instructor and we built my own powder measure since I was on the National Guard State rifle team with an issue Garand and issue ball ammo. All I could do to improve my scores for the State Championships coming up was to pull the bullets and measure the 50 grains of 4895 more accurately that gave 2,700fps and spend a lot of time practicing.
I have had a number of Garands since and shot the Calif/Saeco 196gr gas checked lead bullets without problems. The owner of Saeco was a national level rifle competitor before WW2 and he designed the bullet.
When In high school my welding instructor was also my machine shop and gunsmithing instructor and we built my own powder measure since I was on the National Guard State rifle team with an issue Garand and issue ball ammo. All I could do to improve my scores for the State Championships coming up was to pull the bullets and measure the 50 grains of 4895 more accurately that gave 2,700fps and spend a lot of time practicing.
I have had a number of Garands since and shot the Calif/Saeco 196gr gas checked lead bullets without problems. The owner of Saeco was a national level rifle competitor before WW2 and he designed the bullet.
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Steve in PA
Member
Like I said, some of these shooters should go to Camp Perry and get their name on a trophy for the way they shoot.
Since the "X" ring on the 600yd target is 6.00" in diameter, that would be quite impressive.
Since the "X" ring on the 600yd target is 6.00" in diameter, that would be quite impressive.
Paul "Fitz" Jones
Moderator - Emeritus
Target size
In my State big bore championships I remember the bullseye at 1,000 yards was 3 feet wide. And was surprised I was expected to shoot at that with my Garand when all the civilians had fancy civilian rifles. The Marines Garands had Star Gauge barrels and custom made Peters ammo.
In my State big bore championships I remember the bullseye at 1,000 yards was 3 feet wide. And was surprised I was expected to shoot at that with my Garand when all the civilians had fancy civilian rifles. The Marines Garands had Star Gauge barrels and custom made Peters ammo.
Steve,
I think your still missing something. We are (thanks to you ) now talking about two different kinds of accuracy. Practical accuracy which we can define as the ability of a shooter using field unsupported postitions to fire a rifle and hit a target. Practical accuracy is NOT THE TOPIC.
We started out talking about what the rifle can do when benched and shooter error is for the most part removed. Remember the original poster wanted to know what kind of performance you can get out of the rifle. Not what
Camp Perry shooters are able to do under those conditions.
No body has said here that thousands of shooters are not reloading successfully for Gas Guns. I have in fact managed to do it a time or two myself. With bolt guns if you get the bullet wieght, powder, and seating depth right with the case sized in such a way that you can hammer the bolt closed most likely you are going to be ok. Not so with Gas Guns. There is more to know and more ways to go wrong. See the link I posted it spells it out pretty well.
I think your still missing something. We are (thanks to you
) now talking about two different kinds of accuracy. Practical accuracy which we can define as the ability of a shooter using field unsupported postitions to fire a rifle and hit a target. Practical accuracy is NOT THE TOPIC.We started out talking about what the rifle can do when benched and shooter error is for the most part removed. Remember the original poster wanted to know what kind of performance you can get out of the rifle. Not what
Camp Perry shooters are able to do under those conditions.
No body has said here that thousands of shooters are not reloading successfully for Gas Guns. I have in fact managed to do it a time or two myself. With bolt guns if you get the bullet wieght, powder, and seating depth right with the case sized in such a way that you can hammer the bolt closed most likely you are going to be ok. Not so with Gas Guns. There is more to know and more ways to go wrong. See the link I posted it spells it out pretty well.
cracked butt
Member
Back on topic....
I use:
winchester Brass
WLR primers
IMR4064 and IMR4895 powder
168gr Nosler J4s or SMKs
no crimp
FL resize your brass every time. Toss the brrass after 4 reloadings
Make sure the primers are set slightly below flush with the base of the cartridge.
With my M1 I ahve no problem getting 5 shot groups at or below 2" at 100 yards. YMMV
BS- you will get the best performance out of your rifle if you reload for it, if a person uses common sense, there is nothing difficult or complicated about reloading for an M1.
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