M1 Garand Markings and Other Newbie stuff

[kdave21]

Hey fellas. I never thought I would be interested in a klunky old M1 Garand, and had always aspired for a carbine. Stumbled across a Garand yesterday, bought it as part of a collection and am now in love, wondering, why would I not want one of these!

Got some questions, feel free to answer one, all, or none...

1. What are these markings? The P is on the front part of the grip, the triangle behind. The triangle appears to have a symbol of some sort and maybe "119" below it...hard to read. P is not in a circle. No other markings on stock that I can see. (assume lack of catouche means reworked stock?? Thoughts?)

2. Serial number is in the 800,000 range (SA) making it September 1942. Coincidentally, the barrel is marked "SA 9-42" A. How rare is it to have these matching? B. If this is rare, do I need to worry about "shooting out the barrel" as in, should I do my shooting with a different barrel, or should I just enjoy it and have fun? Looks to have little wear. It passes the "bullet test" however I dont have a gauge.

3. Bolt does not match as it says HRA. What other parts are marked and easy to identify? I realize I am going to have to get a book to learn all the small subtle stuff, just looking for a few quickies.

4. Estimate on value?

5. Why didnt anyone tell me how sweet these are to shoot, I couldnt put it down. Seller gave me 150 rounds of 30-06 pre-loaded in enblocs.

Sorry for crappy pics, good camera is out of commission.

Any and all help is welcome. Thanks!

 

[kdave21]

PS no import marks on barrel or anywhere that I can see. This originally came out of an estate, dont know the history prior to that...

 

[CapnMac]

Well, there's a a whole plethora of drawing numbers on a swath of the parts (like the sides of the trigger group). Those numbers follow a format of a letter, then a multi-digit number. The letter refers to the size of paper the drawing was made upon (A for 8.5x11; B for 11x17; C for 18x24; and so on). The number was generated in some fashion, and is only important in that later revisions will have suffixes, like "-1" or "A" or the like.

Since you are keen on a carbine, look for Bruce Canfield's A Collector's Guide to the M-1 Garand and M-1 Carbine. Which is well worth the price. Gives the histories, serial number ranges, even handy listings of cool accessories to have.

Best accessory to get first, in my experience is a couple-three "bandoleer kits" these have the cloth bandoleer and the cardboard protective sleeves. This is a handy way to carry 64 rounds to the range. Or, order the Greek ammo in the cans in bandoleers, and save a step. The very useful combination tool with a chamber brush is worth the $20 it seems to go for. Especially since it simplifies taking the bolt down should that be necessary.

Have Fun!

 

[cfullgraf]

Most WWII Garands have been rebuilt at least once during their life. It sounds like the barrel might be original to the rifle.

Scott Duff's books are some of the best info on Garands. There are othervgood ones as well.

Go to the CMP's forum for lots of good info on the M1.

http://forums.thecmp.org/index.php

 

[196scoutmaster]

Welcome to the "club" - be careful about addiction..

I now have 5 Garands. I'm in the process of restoring all five. I have just about everybook. And I'm happy to answer any and all questions. You have a "6 digit" receiver - very nice. And it sounds like the barrel might be original too - that's huge. Look at the left side of the stock for more cartouches (imprints in the wood) just below the clip release. Recollection tells me an original stock for the receiver you have would have two more cartouches: Inside a square box their would be SA over three intials which tell you which Army officer was in charge of Springfield Armory in Sept. 42. And there might be a circle with crossed cannons next to it - maybe 1/2" in diameter. The "P" means it was proof fired by whatever factory produced the original stock + receiver. The triangle on the butt....not sure. I'm guessing its something added by whatever friendly country we lent the rifle to. I have a Oct. '43 stock with all the correct SA cartouches plus some Danish stuff.

The HRA bolt - not untypical. My guess is you have a myriad of different parts in it. I agree with CapNMac - buy some books. Scott Duff has a good one on WW2 M1's (red cover) and Joe Poyer has what some consider the bible on part ID - "The M1 Garand 1936-1957". I use both as there are some aspects covered better by one than the other. Both are awesome books.

What's it worth? If you paid less than $800 you got a deal. Were you to sell it.....I'm guess $1000 for sure. Especially due to the barrel date.

And don't worry about shooting it - some will disagree but Garands are made to shoot as well as collect. I shoot all mine. I won't put that many rounds down the barrel to destroy the Throat or Muzzle. I have an HRA that I use for matches - that one is my baby - I take very special care of it.

NOTE: Do look at the op rod and be sure it has a radial relief cut (small circular cut where the handle meets the rod in a funny, curved way). If it doesn't have the radial cut DON'T SHOOT IT - for two reasons. #1 - its unsafe to shoot an uncut op rod. If it breaks you can possibly ruin a whole lot more than the the op rod. #2 - collectors pay a LOT for uncut rods. You could sell an uncut rod and buy two more cut ones. WW2 rods were uncut typically but due to breakage problems armories were directed to "cut" them - putting in a 3/8" dia cut. Post war, and armory rebuild op rods have a 5/8" dia cut that came from the factories.

Enjoy....buy the books and jump deep into history.

 

[fractal7]

Cartouche Markings

So I had never seen the triangle mark before and after some googling I found this thread

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=381650

From the forum posts it looks like they're saying the triangle and non circle P are from a Letterkenny Army Depot rebuild. Also from what the thread says if you take the trigger group out and pull the gun apart it should have some type of marking to the effect of "LEAD <DATE>" on the side of the receiver from when they went over it.

 

[Orlando]

If it is a 1960's Letterkenny Army Depot rebuild, $750.00 -$800.00 would be a fair price

 

[kdave21]

Thanks all for the great info, and fractal and 196 scoutmaster thank you especially for the good leads on the info.

I checked into some of the things you guys were saying and it leads me into some more questions.... It seems that the orange triangle does indeed mean that it was a Letterkenny Army Depot rebuild, but I notice two things unusual about this, first, there is no "LEAD" marking on the receiver leg. Also I notice (as a result of your information and inspecting my rifle) that my op rod is UNCUT. It seems that if it was a true rebuild, the OP Rod would have been cut at that time. Im wondering if someone put this rebuild stock on with some older mechanicals?? What do you guys think?

 

[kdave21]

Heres a pic of the op rod

 

[kdave21]

Pic of the op rod

 

[highorder]

Sell that uncut op-rod and buy two cut rods!

 

[Orlando]

I would say that the stock was changed and rifle is not a Letterkenny Army Depot rebuild. No markings on the reciver leg and the Op Rod would have been changed.
Op Rod might be worth $150.00 "if" piston and tab is in spec. You couldnt buy two modified rods for that.

 

[kdave21]

How do I know if piston and tab are "in spec"?

 

[Orlando]

Measure it,
tab should have square corners
Tab/Lug Height: .320 to .317 under .310 calls for rejection
Tab/Lug Thickness: .100 to .095
Tab/Lug Width: .265 to .235
Piston Diameter: .5260 to .5253 ,under .5245 calls for rejection

 

[196scoutmaster]

Hey kdave21 - I'm looking for a 6 SA op rod for my Oct. 43 SA. I'll trade you a cut op rod (good for shooting) plus some other parts you might need. As the community will tell you an uncut rod is worth more than a cut one. So if its possible to put a "package" together and trade for that op rod I'd be one happy camper. Send me a PM if you're interested.
Tom

 

[196scoutmaster]

Hmmmm....on second thought...I don't think any trade would be a good deal for you. I looked back at your first post and "remembered" you have a Sept 42 barrel/reciever. I don't have my books handy but I'm guessing the correct op rod might be 4 SA or 5 SA - possibly even the 6 SA you have. The parts I have are all later - 1944, '45 and 50's - not what you need or want if you're planning to restore it. I would pick up a cut op rod if you plan to shoot it. And Orlando is right - uncut SA rods go for $150 and up. A good cut rod is still $100-$150.

As far as determining what you have I suggest visiting the Garand Collectors Association site (google it). They have a form you can download, print out and log the various parts on your rifle. Once you have that info you can begin deciding what you want to do with it. As I said in my first post - lots of great books out there. Try Amazon.com and Ebay - compare prices. Sometimes you can "buy" on Amazon cheaper than bidding on Ebay.

 

[196scoutmaster]

M1 Garand Data form

kdave21
Found the form on my computer. This might be CMP's form - not sure. You can fill it out on your computer and save the file. Handy for when you get your second Garand..

 

[Orlando]

Did you get the Garand??

 

[kdave21]

Scoutmaster, thanks for all the information, and letting me know that a trade may not be in my best interest after all Thanks also for the form, I will take a look at it and catalog the parts when I get some time. I bought the book "The complete M1 Garand" by a guy named Thompson. Personally the format was a bit hard for me to follow, and it didnt really have the information I was seeking. I ended up returning it and buying Scott Duffs "The M1 Garand Owner's Manual" and it was exactly what I was looking for. It was not a comprehensive breakdown of how to catalog your parts, but great for a beginner in the field like myself. I will check out the garand owners site as I dig deeper.

 

[lonegunman]

Your Garand has a lot of original parts, it looks like you have a lock-bar type rear sight, the uncut op-rod is hard to find, a matching date receiver and barrel. I think you are just teasing these guys and you already know what you own.

If not, then congrats on your find. The early s/n is a slight premium, the matching barrel and receiver make it desirable for restoration. The op rod could go with the gun, but I think it was replaced at some point.

If you gun had been in an armory or depot that op rod would have been modified or replaced. Your gun could have went home with it's original owner during the war.

Does it have an electro-pencil markings on the receiver legs?

Does it have any markings other than typical GI marks on the side of the barrel next to the date code? on the barrel or gas cylinder?

Does it have the faint remains of red paint circling the wood between the handguards?

Is the chamber face shiny or parked?




Two things, it is shootable but if you ruin an original part then it is gone forever. Use Gi ammo, Hornady makes great new commerical ammo just for Garands. Do not shoot grandpa's reloads ever. Make that any reloaded ammo.

Use the work sheet and see when everything was made, see what you are missing. It might be a great resto or you can replace things like the sights and op rod and enjoy it.

 

[kdave21]

lonegunman, thanks for the thoughts. I am honest when I say I am not trying to tease anyone, I sincerely didnt know what I had! This was only the second time in my life I had even handled an M1 Garand. Although that would be a funny joke. I bought this as part of a collection and I knew, based on what I paid for it, I couldn't be taken too bad. The seller was happy and so was I. I had not originally planned to keep it, but as I stated, fell in love when I shot it.

As far as the answers that I do know...

Does it have an electro-pencil markings on the receiver legs?

No, there is no electro-pencil markings on the receiver legs.

Does it have any markings other than typical GI marks on the side of the barrel next to the date code? on the barrel or gas cylinder?

Not sure what "typical" would be but... heres what I see, on the barrel. Other than barrel date, it says "F" and also what looks to be a "5" on the thick part of the barrel, but hard to read cause the op rod has wore it down, there is a "3" by where the barrel narrows, and on the part of the barrel where it necks down is a "P"

I see no markings at all on gas cylinder.

Forgive my ignorance, but not sure exactly what would be considered the "face" of the chamber. To me everything looks parked, with the exception of what I would consider, the "entrance" to the barrel.

Does it have the faint remains of red paint circling the wood between the handguards?

I think I know what you mean, and I dont see anything like that. The only markings on the wood that I have found are those as pictured.

I am still learning a lot about guns, so if it seems like I dont know much, it may be because I dont know much...(knowledge is relative, so I should say, not much compared to a lot of folks here!)

 

[kdave21]

Pics

 

[kdave21]

some more pics

 

[kdave21]

So we have an uncut op rod, which would indicate not a arsenal rebuild, but that doesnt match up with the fact that it "appears" as though the stock is from an arsenal... To me that means someone pieced this together (or restored this) at a later time. Am I missing something? This was bought from a man who got it from his brother's estate. His brother happened to be a dealer for some manufacturer, I cant remember who. Guessing he knew a bit about guns.

 

[kdave21]

I think Orlando was right when he said, not a arsenal rebuild, but replaced stock....