M1 Garand sight for tired old eyes

[hps1]

I was issued my first garand in the early '50's and have shot them in competition for more years than I care to admit. It was with great reluctance that I was forced to admit I could no longer see the sights well enough to be proficient in its use and relegated my fine old warhorse to the safe about five years ago.

Took a while, but a plan slowly emerged to replace the iron sights with some sort of optical sight, but no (acceptable to me) sights/mounts were available. I did not wish to make any alterations to the rifle (drill/tap), nor do I care for the side mounted scope, but when I saw the Burris Fastfire II, the wheels began to turn again. The FFII is not much larger than the original rear sight on the garand and the "ears" of the garand receiver through which the elevation screw mounts would make no-drill mounting fairly simple. The small size made the FFII ideal as it does not interfere w/top loading and clip ejection of the garand. The FFII mounts a tad higher than the original sight, but a "chin weld" on the stock similar to that used with an AR works satisfactorily.

After removing the rear sight, I made a wooden "dummy" base that fit between the ears on the receiver and took it and the FFII to a gunsmith friend. A few weeks later picked up the finished product.

Before:


After:
The base block pivots on two screws turned to fit holes in the "ears" and is locked at desired angle to achieve elevation zero by two small allen screws, one in front of and one behind the mounting screws:




With sight mounted:




Took it to the range last week, but lacked sufficient elevation adjustment on the sight and did not have correct size allen wrench to adjust the base so ended up w/it sighted 6" high at 100.

Observations so far is that my 75 year old eyes still aren't what they used to be and while I cannot expect to shoot up to the capability of this rifle with the 4 moa dot and no magnification, it should shoot 4moa and get the old girl out of quarantine.

Target on left 10 shots @ 100 yds sitting rapid fire, right hand target 10 shots slow fire @ 100, both shot with original iron sights a number of years ago.


Hope to get out and shoot it again next week and we shall see.

Regards,
hm

 

[BrocLuno]

There are a number of these sorts of sighting systems being attached to M1 Garands. Makes sense for some of us old eyes. Also makes sense if the field grade you have has buggered sights, etc. Not all Garands need to remain bone stock. There were few Nato experiments and I bet there are few Garand sight experiments going on at one of Uncles test ranges?

I have a high serial number chassis that will get a red dot on a forward mount one of these days. I think you've done real well. I'd like to see the range report and the targets

But, you have given me a few ideas to play with

 

[P-32]

I had an eye Doc figure out a script so I could focus on the front sight. Works pretty good, at least good enough the keep shooting matches with a service rifle in the Master class.

 

[hps1]

Glad that's working for you P-32. Hopefully that will work for you for many more years, but if and when it no longer works, there are other avenues that you can take......for a while, and it is worth the effort to stretch you shooting enjoyment as long as you can.

Google BJones and you will find that he makes a rear sight for the M1 that holds a lense and I am told that NRA has changed the Service Rifle rules to allow this lense but CMP has not, but check that out as I had to give up HP competion in '99 or 2000 so do not have current rule book. You can also get a Lyman globe M1 front that holds aperature sights, but you would have to shoot in the Match Rifle category if you use that front sight. By carefully choosing the correct size aperature, you can really sharpen up the target!

It worked for me as well and I, too made master w/the garand. This worked until I was in my mid to late 50's. When I could no longer see the M1 sights even w/special glasses, I switched to shooting NRA Match Rifles which allow one corrective lens in conjunction with either the front or the rear sight (which was not allowed at the time in Service Rifle category.

I had a great optometrist who ground a set of special lenses that I fit into a Merit disc in my rear sight. Using the lense in the rear sight and an aperature front improved my vision sufficiently to allow me to make high master at age 60 with a bolt gun. I'd like to tell you that I can still use these sights, but at 75, my iron sight days are over, but it was a fun ride!

The red dot is not match legal, but allows me to enjoy shooting a fine old rifle once more.

Regards,
hps

 

[P-32]

HPS, thanks for your reply. I have another year to practice for making High Master when you did.

Years ago, I looked at the Jones lens system and found the lens he sells do work but are not optically clean enough for me. I could get on the front sight but found things were distorted. I had bought some Knoblocks some years before for my regular script. I found by adjusting the script for the Knoblocks did make enough of a change where I could see the front post quite well and crisp. Using the different filters available also helps.

A shooting buddy of mine went with the Jones system and while he was happy with the results on a sunny day, he found the lens would fog on him when it rained. My Knoblocks remain clear in the rain but are sometimes bothered by rain drops. I can wipe the lens clear during slow fire. I understand there is yet another new system I should look at. Hopefully, the medical field one day will figure out the Utimate fix for aging eyes. Until then shoot straight.

 

[1KPerDay]

Very cool! you might also want to have a look here; these just barely went into production.

http://m14forum.com/modern-m14/107947-hopco-usa-micro-red-dot-sight-mount-m1-m1a-m14-platform.html

 

[hps1]

How about that! Wish I had known this was in the mill, would have been a lot easier to buy one than to make it. Windage wasn't a problem on mine, but by using the elevation/windage spindle, if they threaded their base, it could easily be made w/windage adjustment as well.

If anyone interested in this arrangement, I'd buy the commercial one, you can't have one made for their price.

P-32:

A shooting buddy of mine went with the Jones system and while he was happy with the results on a sunny day, he found the lens would fog on him when it rained.

Never had a problem w/fogging, but did have three different powers (+.25, .5 & .75 IIRC) and found that varying light sometimes called for different lenses.
Did have mine fall out in the middle of a sitting rapid fire string once and that was a disaster!

I have another year to practice for making High Master when you did.

Hang in there, you'll make it. Just hold tight and jerk right.



Regards,
hps

 

[henschman]

If I wanted to mount a red dot on an M1 or M14, I would go with an Ultimak scout mount and put a 30mm tube body optic in a low ring or an Aimpoint micro on it. That way the red dot is in the same plane as your iron sights, which is nice for a couple reasons... one, you still have a good cheek weld without having to use a riser; and two, if the red dot goes out on you, you can line up your irons right through it and you're still in business. Also a scout mount doesn't require any permanent modifications... it just replaces the upper handguard.

I would never condone just "making do" with a jaw weld. I say if you're gonna do it, do it right and put a cheek riser on it... either that or get a sight setup that is low enough that you don't need one. I guess I'm a stickler for proper fundamentals.

 

[1KPerDay]

Have you tried the ultimak? I'm not aware of any mount/optic combo that allows co-witnessing with the garand sights, or even a good look at them through the optic.

 

[W.E.G.]

The red dot is not match legal

Not true.

 

[BrocLuno]

If I wanted to mount a red dot on an M1 or M14, I would go with an Ultimak scout mount and put a 30mm tube body optic in a low ring or an Aimpoint micro on it. That way the red dot is in the same plane as your iron sights, which is nice for a couple reasons... one, you still have a good cheek weld without having to use a riser; and two, if the red dot goes out on you, you can line up your irons right through it and you're still in business. Also a scout mount doesn't require any permanent modifications... it just replaces the upper handguard.

I would never condone just "making do" with a jaw weld. I say if you're gonna do it, do it right and put a cheek riser on it... either that or get a sight setup that is low enough that you don't need one. I guess I'm a stickler for proper fundamentals.

I've been looking at the Ultimac and that's probably the way I'll go. I have a Red Dot to try it with. I do not believe it will co-witness? That is to be worked out. But the RD can be taken off easily enough and then the irons can be used

 

[ms6852]

This is another alternative if you decide you want a scope.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/scopemountw1-inrings.aspx

 

[ball3006]

I have old eyes. So, when the

CMP offered M1Ds, I bought one. And, never looked back......chris3

 

[Onmilo]

I'm interested.
Does the dot cowitness with the front sight or does it point over the top of the front sight?

 

[1KPerDay]

Omilio, click the link in my post... pics there. Looks to me like the dot will be well above the front sight IF you keep the dot centered in the window. SOME micro-red-dots have a notch at the bottom that can be used as an ersatz rear sight notch in an emergency. But this isn't really for emergencies IMO.

 

[henschman]

The Ultimak for the M1 is the same height as their rail for the M1A, so yes, it will co-witness if you use a tube body red dot in a low ring, or with a really low-sitting red dot like the Aimpoint T1 or H1.

Like this:

 

[BrocLuno]

From that picture, it looks as though the irons will be seen through the bottom of the optic? That's OK by me. Just want to confirm? Is that an Aimpoint?

 

[henschman]

Yeah, you see the irons through the bottom portion of the optic, according to Ultimak's website: http://ultimak.com/M12.htm So I guess it is a "lower 1/3 co-witness" type of setup. That is what guys on the M-14 forum say they get with the Ultimak mount for that rifle, which is pretty much the same thing.

Ultimak says it will also co-witness with a tube body sight like the regular Aimpoints. Yep, that is an Aimpoint T1 in the picture. There are some less expensive copies of it and the tube body ones that would work too.

 

[BrocLuno]

Cool - thanks - good info as I have not actually built one of these yet

I'm looking forward (no pun intended ) to fitting my 5.4M serial late model Garand with an optic and converting to 7.62NATO. I've got more than one of these rifles between me and step dad. Only going to make the late model NATO'ish with Ultimak and an optic. But it will be fun

I think we'll see more of these types of projects. There are gazillions of these rifles out there and there is no reason that we can't find a real good optical setup for casual use At least I want to try one. I'll keep the 1M serial number WW-II correct, but the others - we'll see

 

[hps1]

If I wanted to mount a red dot on an M1 or M14, I would go with an Ultimak scout mount and put a 30mm tube body optic in a low ring or an Aimpoint micro on it. That way the red dot is in the same plane as your iron sights, which is nice for a couple reasons... one, you still have a good cheek weld without having to use a riser; and two, if the red dot goes out on you, you can line up your irons right through it and you're still in business. Also a scout mount doesn't require any permanent modifications... it just replaces the upper handguard.

I would never condone just "making do" with a jaw weld. I say if you're gonna do it, do it right and put a cheek riser on it... either that or get a sight setup that is low enough that you don't need one. I guess I'm a stickler for proper fundamentals.

All well and good, but for a co-witness iron sight to be useful it must first be visible. My problem is that while the irons served me quite well for fifty some years, I can no longer see them so co-witness is not an issue for me.

I know well the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship but had to forego the cheek weld when I finally switched to a scope mounted AR for my primary predator rifle. I find the "chin weld" is just as accurate as a cheek weld, though it took a while to teach this old dog that new trick. Uniformity is the name of the game and as long as you repeat from shot to shot that is all that is required. How one achieves that shot to shot repeatable position is of no consequence.

Each shooter has his own issues to overcome and there is no "one size fits all" shooting position IMHO. As they say, whatever floats your boat.

Quote:
The red dot is not match legal

Not true.
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/competitons/nraopticsrules.jpg

NRA Rule 3.3.4. NRA Any Sight Match Rife/Tactical Rifle is a separate category. I referred to Service Rifle Category when stating the red dots were not legal. "Any Any" matches are held at some larger matches but not all; Service Rifle category is available at most matches.

I looked at the Ultimak but since my Garand is match tuned (upper & lower handguard glued and screwed together) I did not consider it seriously as it would require a new upper handguard and barrel flange. The Fulton Armory scope mount is a good looking solid mount, but I don't care for side mounted scopes.

I'm looking forward (no pun intended ) to fitting my 5.4M serial late model Garand with an optic and converting to 7.62NATO.

I think we'll see more of these types of projects. There are gazillions of these rifles out there and there is no reason that we can't find a real good optical setup for casual use.

Go for it Broc. I think you'll like the 7.62 Garand. Shot one in matches for years. One tip, don't let anyone talk you out of putting the magazine block in. It will work OK until the op rod spring starts to lose a bit of tension and then it will cause feeding issues. Don't ask how I know .

Regards,
hps

 

[BrocLuno]

Thanks for the tip. I was planning to install the magazine block just to keep everything tidy and make sure some fool didn't try to load a full enblock of 06.

If the Ultimak does not work out for me, I'll be following you into rear sight mount territory. I just wished there was a way to nestle the Fastfire a bit lower between the ears? If I go that way, I'll be looking at options. My NATO'ish conversion will be a do-as-I-please rifle, so I don't mind making a bedding surface for the optic.

So, how does your vision accommodate the 4MOA Dot that close to the eye? I was thinking it would be a bit more distinct out there a ways, like on the Ultimak?

Most of my rifles get built and then tweaked to get to some stable configuration. This one, no way - I'll be hot rodding it from the time I start shooting it until I fall over. I specifically bought a real high serial number field grade so there was no real value to loose. It is not a heritage rifle. It has no provenance. The wood is mismatched and will likely be traded for a RamLine. It can be tweaked any way I like and I plan to.

I want a real comfortable cheek weld with a StockEze pad so the optic has to be higher than irons anyway. Now, just how much is the part to be worked out

Seems you have worked out your version and so have some others, this summer it'll be my turn.

In the meantime, I have two stock rifles to tune and ready for some ladies to go shoot in JCG matches locally. One's my niece and one's a friends wife who is bugging me to get it ready so she can practice. Then I have step dad's 1941 vintage to service. He carried one in the South Pacific and the one I'm assembling is per his direction.

I think it'll be a good Garand year

 

[hps1]

So, how does your vision accommodate the 4MOA Dot that close to the eye? I was thinking it would be a bit more distinct out there a ways, like on the Ultimak?

I am afraid you are right about needing a bit more eye releif. One problem with my vision is a developing cataract that the Dr. won't remove yet so I hope that will clear up the dot a bit.

The only problem with the FFII is the dot is a bit too bright in full sunlight (at least for my eye). There is a tiny light sensor located just below the lens that dims the dot as light decreases. Holding your finger over the sensor will not dim the dot; the only way is to cover it w/something like electricians tape and the hole is probably .010" or so, so it is quite an operation to get it right.

When the dot is too bright, it takes on the appearance of a star at night to me. That is it grows "spikes" as opposed to being round. The only time I have actually shot it, I had been hunting all morning and straining my eyes a lot, so maybe with rested eyes, it will be a bit clearer and I'm sure once the cataract is removed the star effect will go away.

Mounting the FFII any lower (with my mount) is not a possibility as it is a tad wider than the ears on the receiver. I don't know why it could not be mounted in the Ultimak and the 4 moa dot would probably be just about right as for brightness at that distance.

Have fun with your project.

Regards,
hps

 

[henschman]

I find the "chin weld" is just as accurate as a cheek weld, though it took a while to teach this old dog that new trick. Uniformity is the name of the game and as long as you repeat from shot to shot that is all that is required. How one achieves that shot to shot repeatable position is of no consequence.

I'd have to disagree with that... accuracy comes from eliminating as much muscle as possible from your position. If you have a proper cheek weld, you are resting your head on the stock and your neck muscles are relaxed. If you use a chin weld, it takes at least a little bit of muscle in your neck to keep it there. If you stay in position (especially prone) with a chin weld for very long, your neck will start to get sore... a sure sign that you are using some neck muscles. Any muscling, even a tiny bit, will introduce a little bit of "shakiness" to your position.

Not to say that a person can't do some really good shooting with a chin weld... but I would say that all else being equal, that same shooter would shoot better, even if just a little, with a good solid cheek weld and fully relaxed neck muscles. And when it comes to fundamentals, all the little things add up.

 

[hps1]

I'd have to disagree with that... accuracy comes from eliminating as much muscle as possible from your position. If you have a proper cheek weld, you are resting your head on the stock and your neck muscles are relaxed. If you use a chin weld, it takes at least a little bit of muscle in your neck to keep it there. If you stay in position (especially prone) with a chin weld for very long, your neck will start to get sore... a sure sign that you are using some neck muscles. Any muscling, even a tiny bit, will introduce a little bit of "shakiness" to your position.

Not to say that a person can't do some really good shooting with a chin weld... but I would say that all else being equal, that same shooter would shoot better, even if just a little, with a good solid cheek weld and fully relaxed neck muscles. And when it comes to fundamentals, all the little things add up.

Yessir, can't disagree with that assesment; have taught that principle in many marksmanship classes. I may or may not have stated that I am 75 years old and shot competition many years with the M1, achieving Master classification with the service rifle. When my eyes gave out I had to switch to NRA Match Rifle category which allowed use of one lense in the sights (either front or rear) with which I made high master classification at age 60. About 3 years later, artritis set in and I was no longer able to stay in the prone position for the 20 minute 600 yard slow fire string so had to hang it up as far as competition went. Took up preadtor hunting and found the AR to be a perfect predator rifle. That's when I learned that you can, indeed, shoot well with a chin weld. Since I no longer shoot from prone position for extended periods of time, cheek weld is not an issue for me.

Can I still shoot targets like this from prone position with iron sights @ 100 yds with a cheek weld?

Or put 15 consecutve shots in a 3" spotter disc from prone @ 600 yards with no artificial rest and iron sights?


No, but I can still shoot targets like this off the bench with a chin weld and my scoped AR15:
and I hope to be able to shoot 4 moa groups with the red dot sight on my old M1 garand. You see, you learn to adapt with what ya got and my point in posting this thread was to share with others that where there is a will, there is a way.

Regards,
hps

 

[P-32]

NRA Rule 3.3.4. NRA Any Sight Match Rife/Tactical Rifle is a separate category. I referred to Service Rifle Category when stating the red dots were not legal. "Any Any" matches are held at some larger matches but not all; Service Rifle category is available at most matches.

Looking over the match listings for WA state, there is a any rifle any sight match listed 1 time for the entire State of WA for 2012.

Not my idea of a good time.

HPS1, You have a very nice lookin M-1 on your first post and by golly you shot the spindle out of the spotter. What this means boys and girls is HPS shot 2 bullets in a row in to almost if not the same hole at at 600 yards with iron sights. This is with dealing with the forces of nature too.