M14 vs M16. What Is the Better Overal Combat Rifle?

M14 vs M16. What Is the Better Overall Combat Rifle?


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Folks don't seem to remember that the 5.56x45 cartridge was developed first and foremost as an anti-personnel weapon. Remington snatched it up and began marketing the .223 Remington afterwards.

As far as a general critique, the M16 hits hard enough to do the job, is accurate beyond typical range of engagement, is easy to shoot well, the list goes on. that's why it's been in service for fifty years.

I chuckle when I see the "poodle shooter" comment. People love to hate on Cooper, but will readily throw out the reference to the M16 without batting an eye.

I've got nothing against the M14. It's not my favorite, but I don't actually dislike it. Garands are fun to shoot. 03 Springfields have a beauty all their own. The Stoner design might not be perfect, but it's head and shoulders above many other military arms fielded both past and present.
 
I voted m16. I was in the Army from 1971-1973, stationed in Germany, then Texas Natl Guard the three years following in Beaumont. I never had a missfeed I couldn't "clear", and I always shot Expert...but we never shot past 300yds! Even at 300, if the wind was up, fuggetaboutit! ha. But hey, long range was what M60's were for and 105s, 155s and 8" Arty! ( I was a cannon cocker) I was never fired at (came close to getting "nuked" '73 Easter Offensive when the NVA attacked South VN...-WARSAW PACT massed on the Czech border and we did too!) We were both armed with Tactical Nukes and more, the M16 was irrelevant, ha I always made sure I had 'access" to a well maintained M60 and plenty of ammo. Since I was a big guy, I was assigned the M60 for all my Guard duty chores. I often had to be the AG also and pack my own ammo as well! Bummer. ha My Marine son in law served two tours in Iraq with First Force Recon. He never had a complaint with his M4 OR his M9! He did tell me their Sgt Major got them plenty of Black Hills ammo for both! It was "not mentioned there", just used, ha. I always teased him about bringing home a 240G for "his wonderful Father In Law! He never did! ha
I did play with three M1As through the years, and even put one of those VN issued fiberglass stocks on the last one, very slim/trim too! I gave it to my Marine as he is into shooting way out there. If the zombie herds or La Raza or the Baltimore/Fergusons come, its a short 870 with buckshot now. Further out I would use one of my hunting rifles. I'm too old/fat/bolted together to do much more now, ha.
 
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The M14 advocates often see things from a limited perspective, as if only their choice is available to defend at long range. The reality is as suggested above - crew served weapons do that job. The soldier is NOT alone in some spiderhole sniping at the enemy, he is almost always part of an organized unit with other crew served weapons that have the long range task.

His part is to cover what's left that survive artillery fire, mortar fire, .50BMG fire, MK17 40mm grenade launcher fire, and M60 fire. At that point he might start seeing actual enemy trying to work their way to closer cover. It's NOT a grassy mowed field where you can see targets 800m away, and it's NOT always a defended position where you sit idly by waiting for the enemy to attack. More often you go out hunting them on their ground - and hauling heavy guns with limited ammunition for a close quarters fight isn't the answer.

And why would they not see you 800m away, too? Because YOU do everything to stay out of sight - work thru dense cover, stay below the top of the ridgeline, wear camo clothing, shield glass from reflecting sunlight ad infinitum.

Some of the M14 fans are discussing it's use - but not from a combat arms perspective. And just the same as the M16, what is issued and used by 90 percent of the troops is often never used - they are support, not combat, it's a personal defense weapon. Exactly the roots of the M4 and M1 carbine. How they treated the weapon and what they were told isn't "combat" practices - they rarely practice and usually don't get the memo. They aren't in the loop, just pick it up later. Certain tactics and techniques aren't revealed to them, they don't have a need to know. Their primary job was something else - not trigger puller.

That's why 90% of the anecdotal stories about what someone did "fighting" somewhere are like the evening showcase of servicemen on TV. Most were support - but the announcer always describes their service as "fighting" in part of the war. Sorry, most support rarely go thru a magazine a month. Only in recent times with guerilla warfare and insurgency have they come under fire - '80's on - and as an Infantryman I made sure to remind them of it. I was not coming to their rescue.

As for the AR10, is IS becoming a success, belatedly and in a different form. If the AR10 is seen as simply the .308 version of the AR15, the original, then yes, there are many more now in service than in the past. Britain bought over 10,000 for GWOT use and Germany is backfilling their current arms with them. They are the weapon of choice when a .308 based long range weapon for Infantry use is needed - because a guy with a M14 or bolt action is readily seen as a different shooter and therefore draws more fire now.

Bad mojo to show up on the battlefield with a recognizably different long range weapon that identifies you as a more serious threat. Better to just go ahead and hump an M60, you'll need to suppress a lot of fire trying to suppress you first.

Nobody considers the unintended consequences.

No, the M14 was not and never would be the better fighting rifle. The M1 decision makers blew their chance when they dismissed magazine feed on the Garand. And that may have been a bad choice, as the soldier still wouldn't carry as much ammo as he could shoot, and secondly, full auto would have still be off the table and only disarmed him quicker.

It takes downsizing the rifle with smaller rounds to enjoy that simply because as humans we cannot carry everything we need in combat. Nobody is capable of carrying two rifles with two complete basic loads of ammo along with all the other gear that is required in a fighting team. It can't be done - it's a luxury of the sunny Saturday afternoon square range with targets made distinct out to 800m. That isn't combat, and in combat, the .30 cal battle rifles were proven to be less than desireable.

Professionals - combat veterans who shoot move communicate - made those decisions decades past and are now gone. The M16 is on the verge of being a C&R in it's own right, and certainly has been produced in staggering numbers, even compared to the M1 - over 8 million. For all the defensiveness of the M14 admirers the bottom line is that it's skin deep - wood and steel. Doesn't make it any better a gun than the Chauchat before it. Looks don't make the rifle - but they can certainly sell them to those with no knowledge of it's dynamic issues.

Go shoot 500 rounds thru yours this weekend and tell us about it.
 
Go shoot 500 rounds thru yours this weekend and tell us about it.

What do you want to know? That shooting for pleasure isn't like a fire fight? Check.

I think there's a muddle in this thread of what's best for killing the enemy and what do we like to shoot. Understandable in gun forum
 
Someone mentioned M16 out to 300 yds and M14 for longer ranges. The fact remains that most soldiers can't hit anything past 200 meters anyway. That includes infantry men. No sense in giving them a heavier rifle and heavier ammo when they can't hit any farther than they can with an M16.

With irons, that makes some sense, though poor shooting is not a given, and I dont think should just be accepted, its more a training issue. Optical sights are becoming the standard though. Theres an improvement in shootability with optics. I'd add that theres not much sense giving them a heavier rifle and ammo than is truly needed to get the job done. None are ideal for all purposes. The M4/M16 type is easier to add optics to, and doesnt raise the overall weight as much as on the M14. Firsthand accounts indicate the cartridge and gun are capable of making hits and being effective at greater range than most give them credit for. The newer generation of ammo helps, like the Mk262.

This rifle appears to be using an old G.I. 20 round magazine. I gotta wonder about the condition of that magazine.

The magazine may be the problem, but you know they still make the 20 round mags, right? (my favorite, actually)
 
I picked the M16.

As far as using the M16 at long range goes, a former co-worker of mine that enlisted in the Marines and went to Afghanistan told me that with the M16A4 equipped with an ACOG and using Mk262 ammunition they were getting HEAD SHOTS at 500 Meters.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
The M-14 is too heavy. I'd take the M-16, but I'd like one with a 20 inch barrel. I used to have an SP1. I never really cleaned it, even after several thousand rds. I did squirt it full of Breakfree everytime I shot it, however. That was a long time ago, but I don't remember that I had feed issues with it.
 
"Modern combat"

I am not really sure if you mean true warfare ,or SHTF survival when you say best gun for ??.

In this day and age,the "modern" gun is obviously the M-4 / AR platform.

I say you can carry at least TWICE the ammo load [ also meaning that you can carry more or equal ammo at LESS weight ].

And as I age = WEIGHT and load out are VERY important.

Also if you envision needing to shoot 300 + yards,get a scoped gun that is made just for that.

I do have an ACCURATE M1A that is amazing to shoot.

BUT the weight factor is the reason I favor the M-4 platform guns,not the caliber or range.
 
Also if you envision needing to shoot 300 + yards,get a scoped gun that is made just for that

"Scoped gun made for that" and the standard M4/M16 isnt a mutually exclusive concept.

Besides, nobody really knows at any point what they are going up against. It makes me scratch my head when people say "If I'm going to shoot past X yards I'll take my Y gun". How would anyone in a situation that requires shooting at anyone know what the exact circumstances were going to be on any given day? (the golf bag full of guns idea comes to mind) Seeing whats going on in Syria and Iraq currently, a door kicker/room clearing gun and longer range use could both be needed nearly simultaneously. They dont always have air or arty to back them up either.


but I'd like one with a 20 inch barrel.

^ ^ LIKE 20" guns. Not popular these days, but really nice to shoot.
 
Mosin Bubba said;
As an aside, I don't know what a military-grade Mini would be like, but it would probably be pretty cool.

TRW built an M14 in .223 caliber in 1963 after McNamara cancelled the M14 production program. Photos can be found on pp 117 and 118 of Ezell's excellent book, The Black Rifle an M16 Retrospective.

Malamute said;
It makes me scratch my head when people say "If I'm going to shoot past X yards I'll take my Y gun". How would anyone in a situation that requires shooting at anyone know what the exact circumstances were going to be on any given day?

I've always felt the same way. I never saw an MTOE that authorized gun bearers or caddys to carry an assortment of weapons for each Infantryman. Units are authorized an assortment of weapons that will enable them to accomplish their general mission. Other weapons are made available as they are needed. Only SOF has a large selection of different weapons organic to the unit.

We made it through Gulf War I without dragging 7.62 rifles out of storage and handing them out. That might have changed had the ground war lasted longer then it did. Our doctrine was different then too. Sniping had just been rediscovered after getting packed away pretty much everywhere but in SOF units in 1973. No one was even talking about Squad Designated Marksmen.

It wasn't until 2003 that the big Army discovered that perhaps a 7.62 weapon at the squad level would be handy. The only AR pattern weapon that was in production and in the inventory at that time was the Stoner SR25. There was no way that they were going to ramp up production of the SR25 to equip the rapidly expanding army. There were a lot of M14s left in storage. It had never been popular with foreign armies (the Philippines, Honduras and Taiwan took some, I'm not aware of any other foreign government that used them in any quantity) so we had a bunch of them. We didn't have a lot of magazines, mag pouches and other ancillary equipment left. Units were using RFI funds on their IMPAC Visa cards to buy this stuff from the commercial market. A lot of optics, mounts and other equipment that was never tested and adopted was bought from the same vendors that THR members buy from. Some of this stuff was good, and some was junk.

In the meantime, the Army began development of an AR pattern 7.62 rifle to fulfill this role. SOF went down a different path, developing the MK 18 SPR in 5.56 at Crane.

What mix of weapons a rifle platoon will be equipped with when our focus changes from desert warfare to fighting in other environments is anyone's guess. But I can say with pretty much certainty the M14 will not be part of it.

The M14 and the weapons that other Western nations developed to accept the 7.62x51 mm round that we forced on NATO (FAL, G3 etc.) are a dead end trail that branches off of the road of Infantry rifle evolution.
 
M14 never failed.
Second tour, M16. Rode a helicopter for two days to get where I was going, too dirty to chamber a round the first night.
Vietnamese left M16's on the battlefield. They did Not want them.
 
When talking the longevity of calibers, I believe the 7.62x51 will live on in a crew-served capacity. I sure hope so because I want the brass.

Maybe I'll start a poll on M60 vs M240 in the NFA section (or maybe not because I'm kidding :) )
 
If someones shooting back AT me, then I really want an AR15.

The AR10 and M1 are too heavy. Great for bugging IN, not bugging OUT. Plan A for escape never works, I need to move and be light on my feet. The AR15 is just better for that.
 
"I never saw an MTOE that authorized gun bearers or caddys to carry an assortment of weapons for each Infantryman"
"Rifle, Matumbo!" --yeah, not quite like a safari, I'd imagine :D

Also if you envision needing to shoot 300 + yards,get a scoped gun that is made just for that

"Scoped gun made for that" and the standard M4/M16 isnt a mutually exclusive concept.

Besides, nobody really knows at any point what they are going up against.
Which begs the other questions;
Exactly what optic is suited for 0-300yd+ effectiveness (since we're talking 'accuracy' here it sure won't be a fat red dot or reflex sight)?
How often do two opposing forces notice let along decide to engage one another past such vast distances?

I understand the latter does occur in Afghanistan, but is typically ineffective harassment of patrols, which I'd assume only occurs in the first place because the locals know they cannot be engaged effectively (i.e. if they could be, they would simply shift to different tactics, rather than admit defeat). All I know is that 300 yards is a looong way away to notice anything if there is any kind of cover (maybe you honorable fighting men develop the ability to push this boundary a bit further; I dunno to what degree), unless your standing put and looking for movement to ambush. Again, that's not the situation for the patrols being harassed from the far sides of valleys from what I understand. Which is why I question just how much more effective a longer-range round could actually be in practice.

Defending a fort from injuns massed on the hilltops? Absolutely. But for picking off a dude you happened to notice (or is now shooting at you) through some scrub brush on a mountainside a quarter mile away while you are focused on not twisting an ankle under your pack's weight & sliding down a scree slope? Ya'll must be some exceptional humans indeed if the gun is what's holding you back. :cool:

TCB
 
The push for a 7.62x51 rifle seems to be the increased range of engagement and perceived lethality of the round. The ironic thing in all this, is that the 7.62 NATO is not exactly the premier long range cartridge anymore. There are multiple 6mm and 7mm offerings with much better ballistics, and terminal performance (at least in game animals) then 7.62x51.

Moving back to a hit a few other comments, as noted engaging out past 200-300 yards is almost impossible against a half way competent enemy. Camouflage, appropriate route selection for their movement, noise/light discipline, etc. make it very difficult to locate another human who is trying not to be noticed. In Korea engagement ranges with rifles were basically 200 yards and in, and that was in mountainous terrain with little vegetation depending on the season. This fits into most combat throughout WW2 as well.

US soldiers are on the flip side of this equation, as they are frequently mechanized and on high profile patrols. So yes, someone can post up behind a rock 700m away and lob in some .303 british rounds from his 1900's vintage Lee-Enfield. Anything more then that we tend to respond with a JDAM, Hellfire, Maverick, etc.

In the context of a 200-300 yard engagement against a competent enemy, the much bigger problem is going to be seeing the enemy rather than aiming at them. Optics will provide a much greater lethality for a weapon system in this situation then caliber. Which system has a MUCH easier capability to add an optic? I'm gonna have to give that one to the modern M16 family over the modern M14 family.

-Jenrick
 
One big reason that is keeping the engagement range in Afghanistan 300 meters + is not the rifles we are using. It's the load we are carrying. Our troops are unable to close the range because they are carrying a fighting load of over 70 pounds.

My son's unit tried to cut the weight during their 2012 deployment to Paktika province by using plate carriers instead of IBAS. Their average fighting load was still over 70 pounds.

Engagements were mostly with M240s, and M224 60mm mortars in the handheld mode.

They also kept a number of M203s after they received the HK grenade launchers the M320s.

Everyone had an ACOG for his M4. He said they only had one M14 but several M110s.
 
Hmmm. All this gun talk. I think I'll go ahead and order that AR rifle kit.

M
 
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You hit on a major point, Jeff. Weight. Mountain hunters will spend $500 to shave a half pound from a hunting rifle and then advocate the M14 because it's a .308 and not a "poodle shooter". Easy to do when you're not the one who has to lug around 782 gear, rifle, body armor, food, water, 420 (minimum) rounds of ammo, plus whatever squad gear you've been assigned to carry. I've got my 782 gear in the attic, from a long time ago in a galaxy far away. My 11 year old son can barely lift it. Forget moving with it.

Interestingly enough, the 70 pound load has remained a near constant throughout history. The equipment has changed, of course, but so have battlefield requirements.

My separation physical listed me at 178 pounds. 40 percent of my body weight then. Who would be insane enough to go on an elk hunt where an average 200 pound man would have to carry 78 1/2 pounds (same 40 percent) all day, every day?
 
When I was a rifle platoon sergeant I hopped on the scale with my LBE, helmet and ruck one time on the way to the field. 103 pounds. My machine gunners were carrying 125 pounds and my RTO just over 120. Our radios and batteries were bigger and heavier and that was a sustainment load with rucksack. Light Infantry referred to how many C141 sorties it took to move the division, not how light we were.

When my son was deployed they didn't go out for days at a time like we did, short missions so they carried assault packs. With just body armor, ammo, water, radios NODs, batteries, they were still carrying over 70 pounds.

With the body armor they require now a soldier has close to 30 pounds before he adds weapon, ammunition, water, radios, NODs, batteries, extra 7.62 linked for the machine guns (often everyone carried a 100 round belt), maybe a 60mm mortar round. Then there is mission specific equipment, breacher kits, demo, perhaps a mine detector.....

SLA Marshall wrote a short book entitled; The Soldiers Load and the Mobility of the Nation. I don't know if it's still in print, it was on a lot of professional reading lists at one time in my career. Everyone in this thread who has never been a light Infantryman should find a copy and read it. It might help you understand some things about why certain weapons are selected.
 
"Interestingly enough, the 70 pound load has remained a near constant throughout history"
I recall some article a while back that was a photographic history of warrior load-outs going back to the Bronze Age. It's been 70lbs since like WWI, IIRC, and before that it was much less. I have to imagine a good chunk of that has to do with how much slower infantrymen used to move back then (lacking mechanized supply lines) and whether tactics were different with regards to fighting sorties or patrols. It seems like in those days there was plenty of time to dismount your gear while the phalanxes were lining up to meet one another, then another few minutes of back/forth taunting while both loaded their muskets ;)

I suspect the notion of having to actually engage the enemy with a full packload of +70lbs is likely a modern invention resulting from the realities of asymmetric warfare.

TCB
 
M14 vs M16. What Is the Better Overall Combat Rifle?

I guess I should extend my thanks to the US Marine Corps for allowing me to become well acquainted with both, including the M16 in combat. While I trained with the M14 and dragged it over many miles when I got to Vietnam it was the M16 I carried.

Which is really the better of the two? Beats the hell out of me. The M16 served me well in Vietnam and did what it was supposed to do. Since I never carried the M14 in combat I really can't do an honest comparison. Despite my love of the M14 for distance in the prone position I can't say I ever needed a 500 yard shot in Vietnam. Hell, I seriously doubt I saw many targets beyond 50 or 100 yards where the M16 worked just fine.

Today? I enjoy shooting my AR 15 rifles, including a few SP-1 rifles for nostalgia as well as my M1A. But all of this, even match shooting is fun, leisure shooting. I am not shooting at targets that shoot back and I like that. If I had to give one or the other a nod as a better combat rifle? I would likely choose the M16 simply because it's handy, easy to wield, lighter and all around easier to carry than the heavier M14. Then too, I am damn glad I no longer have to worry about which I would want in combat simply because I am far too old for that crap anymore.

Just My Take....
Ron
 
A big thank you to all who have been participating in this excellent discussion. A lot of knowledge is being passed on regarding both rifle systems in this remarkable thread. I certainly have learned a lot.

Only on THR do we have so many articulate voices, no matter what the issue. Again, my gratitude for all the votes and comments. :)
 
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