M16/AR mags: Fully capacity or "down by two"?

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I don't have any problem seating my mags on a closed bolt when they're full. This is a result of using good magazines, and pounding on the mag like my life depends on it. (I've never served, but a training class with 20 guys watching your mag fall out three times in a row will ensure that you have a serious, long term interest in making sure it never happens again.)
So I fill them all the way up. I figure I've got the space in the mag, I might as well put it to use.
 
I don't have any problem seating my mags on a closed bolt when they're full. This is a result of using good magazines, and pounding on the mag like my life depends on it....
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The guy who taught my class, is a local SWAT LEO, and multiple graduate of Pat Rogers training, says not to pound the mag in. He says, if it is a bad mag, it will make "spaghetti" inside the gun. I don't know what this means, but it sounds bad. Also, I only use quality USGI mags, and it has happened to me. I suspect most of the others who download, are too.


edit: Spelling. Sorry Pat.
 
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If the magazine has bad feed lips and you slap it hard into the magazine well it will almost surely double or triple feed.

Jeff

BTW, Pat's last name is ROGERS ;). I'll see him next week when I do my annual carbine refresher. I've found that going back and training with a master every year not only makes me a better shooter but a better instructor.
 
It's interesting that Patrick Sweeney, in the Book of the AR-15, states that he believes in loading magazines up to capacity, and attributes the downloading to the error of over-loading a magazine.

Personally I've not had anywhere remotely near enough trigger time with the AR to even have experienced most of these problems. So I don't know. But I find it enormously interesting that some people believe so firmly in downloading by 2, while others feel that it's pure superstition, and that 30 is 30, period. I wonder what the cause of this discrepancy is.
 
This question comes up fairly often and it is a question that is best answered by you taking your rifle out and trying it for yourself. You don't need to guess or cite various sources, do it yourself. You have the rifle, you have the magazines, you have the ammo: go to the range and use them.
You need to do a drill that requires rapid magazine changes such as the El Presidente' or just simply stand there and practice doing tac loads from your pouches. It needs to be a drill where time is an issue. You don't have all day to seat the magazine: it needs to be done right now, instantly. If not, the timer clicks away while you spank the mag. You will quickly see that many magazines will not seat fully on a closed bolt if they are loaded to 30 rounds. You will be doing a drill like the El Prez and end up with the mag falling out of your rifle onto the ground because it wasn't locked into the gun.
Again, this isn't voodoo. Just take your rifle and an empty magazine and look how the mag locks into the rifle. There is a little cut out in the body of the mag that locks up with the mag release. If you have the mag loaded with 30 rounds and the bolt is closed, the top round in the magazine hits the bottom of the bolt carrier and the hole doesn't line up with the mag release. So, you have to depress the magazine spring a little bit to get the hole to line up.

If the bolt is locked back this isn't an issue because the top round is not touching the bottom of the bolt carrier.

Some of this also depends on how worn your magazine spring is (the more worn, the easier it is to depress), as well as the manufacturing tolorances of the magazine body as well as the rifle lower receiver. Sometimes you will find a magazine that works fine fully loaded. Other times you won't. To me, it isn't worth the hassle: just download by two rounds and ensure that everything will go smoothly. The alternative sucks.

Pounding on the bottom of the magazine is not the way to go. This isn't a contest to see if you can get it on dispite us telling you not to. This is why shooting a drill like the El Prez is valuable. You are shooting against the clock: you don't have time to pound the magazine. It needs to seat quickly and smoothly. Spanking the magzine is a recipe for trouble. Again, this isn't rocket science. You learned this lesson outside the shooting sports: if it doesn't go easy, don't force it: bad things will happen. Using a bigger hammer is often not the best solution. As was mentioned, this often results in feeding issues like double feeds (type III malfunction), bent magzine feeding lips, having all the rounds in the magazine fountain out at once, and/or having the magazine "bounce" off the bottom of the bolt and onto the ground.
 
Greetings all. I really appreciate everyone's input on this matter. I have always down-loaded my AR mags by two or three since buying my rifle years ago. NEVER had any kind of fuctioning problem whatsoever in 3k-plus rounds of shooting. Using cheap USA brand mags for almost all of it.

The first time I load USGI-spec mags with thirty rounds of decent quality ammo(Guat and Radway), I have issues with it. This is with a well-maintaned Colt(non-Kool Aid edition) A2.

I guess I will go with what works and continue to down-load by two.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's input.

Stay alert, stay ALIVE.

-jagd
 
The main problem with AR mags is with the feed lips. When the feed lips get weak and sart to crack, you start getting double feeds. I wouldn't insert a fully loaded mag until I was ready to shoot, then I insert it with the bolt carrier retracted.

I spent 14 years on active duty. First with the 1st Ranger Bn. and later with the 7th Special Forces Group. I never downloaded my mags. If the mags are clean, very lightly lubed, and in good condition, you shouldn't have problems.
 
But I find it enormously interesting that some people believe so firmly in downloading by 2, while others feel that it's pure superstition, and that 30 is 30, period. I wonder what the cause of this discrepancy is.
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Maybe some of us just lucked out on the magazine/lower lottery and got ones where the tolerances work out?

And since I feel like some other comments have been indirectly addressed to me, when I said "pounding" I don't mean I'm standing there repeatedly hitting the bottom of the mag. It goes in the first time, because I put enough strength behind it to make sure it goes in and stays in. If this starts to result in problems, I'll 1) replace the offending mag(s) and 2) change my behavior if that doesn't seem to fix it. Until then, I'm content.

The last thing I'm trying to do is advocate one particular behavior. I'm just answering the question. More power to anyone and everyone who wants to try it both ways.
 
Since you said it, I was responding to your post, BUT, I have done the same thing. I have stood there and pounded on a magazine to get it to seat. In fact, I did it recently in a class where I was BSing when I was loading mags and put too many rounds in them. I was trying to act cool on the line and not draw any attention to the fact that I was an idiot, but I was dealing some serious blows to get those mags seated.
Lesson learned for that day: I didn't do it again.
 
444,
i heartily agree with your previous post about trying it for yourself - what works for one may not work for another - but i'd like to nit pick a little, if i may.

while quick reloading with a rifle is a skill that should be practiced, i think many may put too much time into it. if your rifle goes down in a fight, whether it's due to a malfunction or an empty magazine, you should transition to your pistol, destroy the threat and then clear or reload your primary weapon as necessary. there should be no reloading under duress.

i've always loaded/reloaded by inserting, smartly (but not brutishly) slapping the bottom of the mag and tugging to be sure it was seated. i've never had a problem, though i'm not a super door kicking ninja.
 
I disagree.
First of all, in my opinion, reloading my rifle is simply a basic skill that I want to master. I want to do it quickly and smoothly. That comes from practice.
Second, knowing my individual weapon and how it operates is something else I consider to be a basic skill that I want to master. In my opinion I need to know if my rifle will readily accept a fully loaded magazine without undue force or not. Once I know that information, I tailor my techniques to the requirements of my rifle. In my case, I know that none of my 13 AR15s will readily accept a fully loaded magazine every single time. I have proven this to myself over and over again. So, I download the magazines by two rounds thus using the information to maximize my performance with my own rifles. I consider things like this to be just as important as knowing my sight settings.
Third, if you are doing a tactical reload (reload with the bolt closed) then by definition you are doing so during a lull in the gunfight. You have fired your weapon and are topping it off with a fresh, fully loaded magazine in case your weapon is needed again. However, you don't know when or if you will need to use your weapon again so you need to get it back up and running (loaded) as quickly as possible.

The fact is that a whole lot of people who might find themselves armed with carbines, won't also be armed with a handgun. Probably first and foremost is a soldier. There is also something called Murphy's law that says that if you plan for senario "A", senario "Z" is going to actually happen. Not being prepared for senario "Z" is known as putting all your eggs in one basket.

But of course, this is just my opinion.
 
the bottom line is that some folks download their mags out of superstition.
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I've taken multiple rifle courses from Louis Awerbuck and Pat Rogers. The vast majority of rifles present were ARs. A substantial percentage of weapons related problems on the firing line resulted from overloading magazines.

It's not superstition if you see it happen time after time. Some mags (HK, C Products) can be loaded to full capacity. That's because they are longer than GI mags. GI mags cannot be reliably loaded to full capacity or you will (not may, will) run into a situation where you can't seat the mag. It may take a while, but it'll happen. Murphy says that it will happen on the range with the instructor right behind you, or when you need it most.
 
The wise man learns from experience. The *smart* man learns from someone else's experience. I'm gonna load 28.
 
444's posts make the most sense. I would encourage everyone to get to the range and do some El Presidente's and then report back to us.
 
Uh, why 28 (or even 27 for the ANAL) and not just 29???

Maybe some of us just lucked out on the magazine/lower lottery and got ones where the tolerances work out?
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So, we looking at a DESIGN defect or a common SPECIMEN defect causing the functioning problems reported here?

:neener:

Operator error is another thing. Loading 31 results in the top round being on the LEFT, not the RIGHT, feed position. That means my final steps in inspecting mags before putting them in the gear are to make SURE
a) the top round is on the right. If it is NOT, "press-check" for the round stack to depress to allow seating under the bolt carrier, conclude it's 29 rounds if the stack goes way down, load the #30 round, and
b) repeat the press-check. A mag is downloaded by one ONLY if it fails the press-check (round must go down at least 1/8-inch without undue pressure) with 30 rounds in.

I don't recall any of the FMs or TMs or manufacturer user manuals advising any download scheme. Could this be a common "best practice" borne out of uncorrected gun/mag defects?

And if "in-spec" rifles combined with "in-spec" magazines really do cause these problems, I'd say there's a problem with the SPECS!!

It's just not happened to me in the rare times I've had a full mag under a closed bolt.
 
So let's say this is a design defect.

Ok, now what ?

Does calling it a design defect change anything ?

How about if we went back in time and saw to it that a 30 round magazine was never manufactured. Instead we manufactured the exact same magazine we have now only we called it a 28 round magazine. Would that make everyone feel better about the whole thing ?

The fact is that we need to know our gear and learn to deal with it's strengths as well as it's weaknesses. If you can't live with it's weaknesses, then move on to something you think is better. If, on the other hand, you recognize the weapons weaknesses and choose to ignore them and hope they go away, you are asking for trouble.
 
Has anyone else heard the "prevent sprung feed lips" argument?

27 rounds in 30 round magazines was also common
practice in federal law enforcement in the early 1990s.
Never could find a specific reason given anywhere.
 
Again, the specific reason probably boiled down to someone taking a rifle, magazines, and ammo out and shooting them. (This was before the internet when you learned about stuff by doing).
He discovered that his rifle didn't function correctly with fully loaded magazines. He removed rounds until he was satisfied that the problem went away. For him, that number was 27. He was in postion to make policy, so their SOP was 27.

But then again, maybe the obvious answer isn't always the right answer.
 
So, it's 28 or 27 rounds instead of just 29--WHY???

I have a Glock NDF mag that just won't go in under the slide when full, without extreme persuasion. If I can cram it in, it will jam maybe one time out of five. Download it by one, or just use it as a slidelock-only reload mag, and it's fine.

Just like your blood pressure medicine, eh? If one is good, two is better, right?

IME with many, many firearms, if the mag will depress the stack of cartridges by 1/8-inch (not enough for another round!), they will always work under a closed bolt/slide.

444-how about the design defect is not the magazines, but the mag catch/magwell dimensions? After all, they all work together as a system. IME, the "magazine" defect could be NOT the capacity, but the location of the mag catch cutout... And a "28-round" designed magazine, that will accept operator-error overloading, is STILL either defective in design or build.
 
I run 29 also. It was from trial and error though, not from what anyone said. If the bolt is closed, it just won't lock the mag with 30rds. in some of my mags (half of them have ranger tabs and magpul followers which makes things even worse) without smacking it so hard you chance damaging the feed lips or your hand. 29 is the most I can run and have the mag lock in nice and quick.
I'll probably (make that hopefully) never use it in a life or death situation but I'd rather have 29 rounds in my mags and reload one round sooner than having magazines fall out when I fire my first round or double feed that first round. :eek:
 
I was talking about this subject with a co-worker today. He served in Vietnam in the late sixties. He said they were issued twenty round mags and also loaded down by two. My experience is soley with thirty-round mags, do twenty-rounders exhibit the same(sometime)difficulty in locking in with a closed bolt?

-jagd
 
Always downloaded by 2 - AK in Iraq, R1 (FN-FAL) & R4 (Galil) in South Africa. Handgun mags - full-capacity.
 
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