M16\M4 Performance in Iraq

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556A2

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Hey everybody,

I just got an email from my brother-in-law in Iraq. Hes a Master Sergent X-Ray tech in a field hospital in Iraq. Anyways, I asked him how the M-16s, and M4s are performing in Iraq both mechanically and physically, and I thought yall would like to know.

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"Trust me, I have seen the physical affects of all three the M-16, M-4 and the Ak-47. Throw all those things you read away. THe 7.62 is still the deadlestt round within 200m, trust me it will rip flesh and bone right out of your body,, I have seen it first hand. THe M4 has alot to be said, it is a good weopon within 150m mostly because of it's small size so for close quarters it is perfect but alot of the guy say, and I have seen it, for myself, it does not have the stopping power needed in combat. Especially at distances gereater then 150m. Some of the guys have even picked up[ AK47s to use and just sling thier M4 over thier back. It;s like shooting a .22!!!! As for the regular M16 you get the distance because of the longer barrel, some of the guys here have added Scopes to thier standard M16 and have been hitting guys out at 500m in the head with no problem. And as for how either t! he M4 and M16 are doing. Well like in every conflict since they were invented! Clean it Clean It Clean it Clean it Clean it! If not it WILL jam at the worse time! It WILL JAM! And dont' leave your magazines loaded with a full 30rds, springs get really weak, especially in these high temps over here. And then they wont feed correctly! The AK47 of course hasnt had this problem. Oh course the enemy has the better WEAPON!"
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And this is not a AR\AK flame war thread, I'm only posting this to people who would like to know first-hand knowlege about the M16 and M4's performance in Iraq.
 
I wonder if its the lubricant? Better a dry lube or no lube for desert warfare. Thanks for the post.
 
The M4/M855 combo has awful terminal performance past 150 yards, and that's due to the low velocity imparted by a 14.5" bbl. This is not a new item, AARs from Afghanistan also cited the same problems. Strangely enough, soldiers shooting M16A2s and M249s did not report the same issues.

Some units are experimenting with Open-Tip Match (OTM) bullets in 75, 77, 80 and 100 grain. Early testing suggests that heavy OTM bullets have excellent terminal performance and may be able to extend the lethal range of the M4 carbine.

Check out the pics at www.ammo-oracle.com

I've seen recommendations for Militec and a dry graphite lube for desert ops. CLP is a definite no-no in the sandbox.
 
Well, all I can say is that I just bought a SAR-1 AK a few weeks ago. For accuracy an AR-15 derivative can not be beat. But you need at least 16 honest inches of barrel to make the .223 work properly to kill. The M4 is fine within 100 yards but then . . .

On the maintenance side of things, the AK has is it all over the AR. If I had to go back into the stone age, the AK would follow me (and a bunch of Glocks as well). I love my AR, but she is high maintenance, albeit, easy to clean, but you still have to attend to her. All you have to do with an AK is dip her in water on occasion, dry, and spray with CLP, and she will work. Heck you probably don't even have to do that.

The AR is perfection under ideal conditions. The AK always seems to work no matter what.
 
Sir Galahad - are there also millions upon millions of dead end users too?
 
I almost hurt myself laughing when I heard the oil excuse the first time. I love it when the AR lovers attempt to defend their fragile, finiky weapon by claiming the gun has the wrong flavor of oil!! It is a bad design for a weapon of war. Period. It can not deal with the simple reality that war is dirty. Any weapon or plan that needs ideal conditions is flawed.

Check out the following conversation that will never happen:

Habib: Hey Omar. What weight oil are you using this month in your AK47? Your gun keeps jamming and we need to kill those evil American dogs?

Omar: Allah be praised. It is a special blend only known to the great prophet himself. I think we need a second opinion. We must kill the great satan. How can we do this if our AK47s won't cycle?

Habib: Ah. I have revelation and many questions. Are you using G.I. or aftermarket mags? What color are the followers? Are the feed lips bent? You are not using Wolf ammo are you?

Omar: Since my youth, I have always been faithful do these things and to make sure I have staggered the gas rings in my AK bolt and clean the locking lugs well.

Habib: If only we had the foolproof and stone cold reliable M16, we would have none of these problems and we would triumph in the mother of all battles. We will have to make do with these tempermental AK47s. Paradise awaits us.
 
Thanks for posting that. Remember that it is an anecdotal observation from a non-combat arms soldier.

7.62x39 has relatively poor terminal effects compared to either M855 or M193. Against MK262 mod 1 it can't even begin to compare. The official reports I have seen, done with some kind of scientific methodolgy by people from the Combat Development Branch at the US Army Infantry School don't say the same thing your BIL does. Actually it sounds very similar to the things I heard at the range and in the barracks in a 29 year Army career (Infantry and Artillery). These same things have been going around since before I enlisted in 1974. This will be another piece of proof positive evidence that we have carried the wrong firearm for the last 40 years to those who want to believe they are right and we should still carry the M14 or the M1 or maybe even the Brown Bess.

My personal experience is that almost everyone of these experts I have met has no more Infantry experience then carrying their M1A or AK from the trunk of their car to the firing line at the range, usually a distance of around 100 meters.

There are plenty of people here who have used the M16 in combat as an Infantry soldier who will not complain about the design at all.

Jeff
 
Hy, Jeff. I used to repair the thing. Does my opinion count?:rolleyes: (MOS 45B Small Arms repair.) The M-16A1 was pathetic, truthfully. Never got to repair A2s so I can't fully comment on them.

4v50Gary, now I'm going to be politically incorrect here. There are LOTS more dead because of AKs than the holders of AKs. Wherever and whenever the SHTF around the globe, the AK is there. Can't say that for the M-16. Well, maybe now that the U.S. is making the SHTF, but in Iraq since the "victory", they're almost having a tie. They kill a couple of ours, we kill a couple of thiers, and so forth. AK seems pretty darn effective in Iraq right now. And for every AK that U.S. troops find, there are at least a thousand they won't find. Forget NBC weapons, the buried tons of RPGs and AKs and ammo are enough to keep the whole region happy as clams blowing away American troops and fading into the populace again for ten years. But it's not a "guerilla war" according to the esteemed high command, so it must really just be a particularly rough game of full-contact Candyland.

Dave3006, LOL!!! That's hilarious!
 
Sir Galahad,

Of course your opinion counts. What was so pathetic about the A1? I used one for most of my career. How many repairs did you make because of a design flaw in the weapon and how many were made because soldiers tend to abuse their rifles? You know what I'm talking about, shooting cleaning rod sections using M200 blanks as propellent, using their rifles as prybars, kicking them around on the floor of vehicles, firing ball ammuntion with BFAs mounted, disassembling the lower receiver group and then putting it together wrong (as a 45B you know that you were the only person authorized to do that), cleaning them with carburator cleaner or soap and hot water the list of abuses is endless.

Let's see, the biggest MWO I can remember on the M16A1 from 1974 on was when they increased the strength of the extractor spring and ID'd the new on with the blue plastic insert.

On the wall behind my monitor is a picture of some soldiers from the Honduran Army that I helped train in 1990. They were from the Sexto (6th) Bn, 110th Brigade. They had the worst looking M16A1s I ever saw. Most of the finish was worn off, dust covers were missing or flapping in the breese because the springs were broke. Some of them were corroded almost all the way through the aluminum of the lower receiver in front of the magazine well, where they liked to hold them. Furniture was held together with duct tape. But they worked, every time. Hardly the unreliable, maintenance intensive nightmares all the experts here on the internet and in the popular gun press make them out to be.....

I'm interested in your what you saw as a 45 bravo that convinced you the A1 was unsuitable for use.

Jeff
 
Jeff, it's a lost cause. The only way these guys will ever be convinced is to be forced to use that POS AK as their issue weapon for several monthes of combat. IMO, just carring a basic load of those magazines(aka field expedient framing hammers) will cause some of these guys to go Tango Uniform.

Just remember folks, the USSR copied us with the AK 74. We didn't go back to big slow bullets that don't fragment(AK47 style).

Yeah, we're taking a few casualties in Iraq. We're also nabbing a bunch of the BG's. If you guys(and the rest of the wimps) can hold off the wimpering and show a little spine for few more weeks, it'll be over for longer than the ten years since the last war. When did Americans turn into such wimps? Is this the same nation that lost nearly ten thousand men on one day in WWII? It sure as Hell doesn't look like it. Semper Fidelis....Ken M
 
Jeff,

I was going to address the issue, but I read you first post. You were more tactful than I would have been. Both of your posts are dead on.
 
Natedog, before America became a feminized, politically correct land of socialism, we told all sorts of jokes. Polish jokes, Italian jokes... you name it. We were tough enough to take it then. I keep forgeting we are a nation of crybabies now. Don't worry, the towelheads can take a few jokes. It won't kill them (at least not like their planes killed us on 9/11).
 
FWIW my best friend who recently returned from Iraq can not say enough good things about the M4. He was a BMO for 2-69 Armor--the unit that was at the front of the 3ID surge through Iraq. Usually up at the front lines in an un-armored humvee with the doors removed for easier shooting he used his M4 regularly. He never had a jam and towards the end of the run to Baghdad didn't have time to clean it properly. I'll have full confidence in mine when I get to Bragg in Feb.

Mark
 
You know, Carried M16 A1, A2 and was in one of the first units issued M4s. I thought the a1 was more accurate to me at least. M4 was good for us in artillery cause in a track you don't have all that much room, and much better than the M9. Has anyone ever thought about the fact that when we go into these "warzones" we are usually going into a country where people have spent their whole lives fighting and killing? They have to to stay alive...if they don't learn to use and respect whatever weapon they use then they will die. Our troops, of whom I was one, are for the most part young, and most likely didn't grow up in a warzone. They are trained to the best of our ability and sent off to fight. They are thrust brand new into a life or death situation. They will learn to clean their weapons and make it work if they want to live. I say most are young because the avg soldier in Afghanistan or Iraq right now is probably in their early 20's or late teens. No matter how hard you train, its always the mentality that you can be home in a few days or call home at night, People do take cell phones to the field, and you know its not really life or death because its miles. Well people will learn if they want to live they will do what they have to do. Sorry about the rant. I just feel like it's not the weapons fault. If the Iraqis had had M16s or any other weapon instead of the
AK 47 in their desert for 30 years, they would not be failing them either because they were used to it.
 
Echo Six Mike: I see. So, rather than provide factual information that backs up the military and government insistance that we are not in a "guerilla war, it's safer just to dismiss people that state the obvious as "wimps". Sure, we're taking a few casualties, so what right? ("Well, I'm not saying we won't get our hair messed up!"---Dr. Strangelove) So, Echo, before you start throwing the word "wimp" around profligately, how about using facts instead to back up your argument?

Jeff, first off, the A1 was a barrel-eating monster. Thing went through barrels like crap through a goose. Auto fire was the usual reason if it was sustained. Then the heat usually "welded" the barrel nut to the aluminum upper receiver because of the two dissimilar materials having a tendency to do this anyways. So, to replace the barrel almost always resulted in replacing the upper receiver. Then the gas tube had to be "just so" in alignment or weapon would not work because bolt carrier assy key (forget the actual nomenclature for that piece; been over thirteen years ago now) would not fit over gas tube. Many times, the barrel nut had to be backed off a smidge from tight to make gas tube align right. I also saw several early models without forward assists stil in service. Handguards flying of during D&C. Great way to protect that thin gas tube, what with handguards that fly off when buttstock is tapped on ground. Buttstocks that break on the bayonet course. Then there was the change from a chromed bolt and carrier assy to a parked one. You couldn't mix any of these items up or a headspace issue could blow the rifle up. Barrels warping from sustained full auto fire (this was one of the big reasons for three round burst BTW; barrels cost money.) And, as you pointed out Jeff, this weapon did not take abuse to well either. The biggest complaint I got was jamming during full auto. Never could pin that down to a specific part failure. Since weapons had to be clean prior to bringing them in for maintenance, this could have ben a cleaning issue. If a weapon is not at least somewhat soldier-proof, my God...
 
ARs are inferior to AKs. Hopefully the H&Ks the military gets in a couple of years will be better.
Click to expand...

I guess AK's are great if you don't consider it's heavy, the bolt handle is on the wrong side, it has no bolt stop, the safety sucks and accuracy is something alien to them. They do have a reliable gas system, but then again so do AR's when you cut through the crap and look at the facts. Owning both I find very little inferior about the AR, I do however find several shortcomings in the AK.
 
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Im sick of all the M16 bashing,lets face it more AKs were made and they are cheap,the only people using them are the ones that cant afford M16s,anything in a desert with sand like talcam powder will fail if not cleaned,a good example is WW2 in north africa where .50s the M1 or BAR would fail and did if not cleaned,this attitude some people have toward the AR is the same attitude people who use it for real sometimes have and you wonder why the weapon fails them,because they dont understand how to maintain it,look at the 507th,they were a maintenence company and all their weapons failed not just the M16,soldiers have to learn what their weapons are and are not capable of,anything used within the specified parameters should work fine as long as you maintain it,spec ops guys who complained about stopping power in afghanistan are the same guys using the M4 with aimpoint to try and snipe at targets at 500 meters,the weapon wasnt designed for that,understanding your weapons design,stregnths and weaknesses will go a long way,my father learned the hard way in korea when he went from cold ouside to warm inside didnt wipe off the condensation then when he went bak out a few hours later his rifle froze up and he had to piss on it to get it to work,normaly not a big problem but the chineese were trying to kill him at the time,but he was a young 18 and never had such a weapon before and basic training didnt prepare him for the cold of korea when he went over,so lets stop blaming the weapon and be men and be resonsible for ourselves and our actions and cleaning our weapons so they work.
 
Jeff,

I'm not partaking in this debate, look at my sig. Yet, my bro-in-law HAS used his M16 in Somailia and in Iraq (has been ambushed several times since hes be in Iraq) so I think he can say something about the weapon's stopping power. He may not be 11B, but he's used his M16A2 for its purpose.

As far as the AR\AK debate, they both have their pluses and minuses.
 
Well, here's my two cents....some on topic, some off.

Sir Galahad: While I respect your knowledge of the M-16, I still think it's a good weapon. I know they were abused, the one I was issued in bootcamp was a total piece of junk, but I still managed to fire Expert with it, loose handguards and all. I never understood the full-auto deal anyway...yeah it's fun, as long as Uncle Sam was buying the ammo, but I couldn't hit squat in that mode. It's no wonder you have the opinion you do, since you were required to fix them. It's been my experience, that if you really want to know about a car, you ask a mechanic who works on them...I'd say the same applies to firearms. Ask me about Marine Helicopters and I'll have an opinion too. :D

Dave 3006: Thanks for the cute story and for reminding us all that political correctness sucks!

Natedog: Come on man, get a sense of humor ;)

Citadel99: How the heck are ya? Glad to hear some folks like their M4's and really hope yours serves you well....Take Care at Bragg !

Semper Fi, Sgt
 
Is there a single person here that would recommend hunters use a FMJ .223 to hunt deer?

No? Why not?

How about a FMJ in .308? Would that be a better choice?

Yes? How come?

Keith
 
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