M1A in Afghanistan and Iraq?

[jobu07]

It's entirely possible. We received a shipment of refurbed Winchesters right before we deployed in '08. These things were worked over six ways from Sunday. Neat rifles and very accurate.

 

[Birddog1911]

The thought of a DM carrying a bone stock, base model Springfield M1A on ops is more than a little bit laughable imho.

You might want to tell that to a few guys in the photo album here:
http://imageseek.com/m1a/

 

[essayons21]

You might want to tell that to a few guys in the photo album here:
http://imageseek.com/m1a/

Here ya go

All sorts of non-TOE equipment, including weapons, gets into the hands of soldiers in a combat zone. While probably not legit, it would be entirely possible that some enterprising unit did obtain weapons through a FFL and manage to get them in country. We had only 3 ACOGs for an entire company, and the supply chain wasn't getting any to us, so they came off the shelf. Same for quite a bit of other equipment. AAFES even sells NVGs, thermal scopes, and weapon mods in the PXs in country.

 

[Birddog1911]

There are a bunch more too. I recall one of a 1stSgt, I think, who prefers his M14 without the fancy stock and scope. I like that guy!

Edited to add: This could be that particular soldier.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what makes anyone think that guy is holding an M1A and not a real M14?

 

[Birddog1911]

Horse, I think you're missing the point. Sankum made the comment that carrying a standard M14 was laughable, in his opinion. We're showing him that there are a few who would disagree.

 

[Warbow]

Horse, I think you're missing the point. Sankum made the comment that carrying a standard M14 was laughable, in his opinion. We're showing him that there are a few who would disagree.

Well, not really -- Sankum said Springfield M1A. I don't think there's any doubt that an all USGI part M14 is going to be a better choice than an M1A.

Also, the rifle in the photo above is an M14. It has a selector shaft lock installed which Springfield M1As don't have a place for.

 

[PFCLEE11B]

Now while I was overseas I never saw any M1As being carried I did see a lot of NCOs as well as officers that were carrying GLOCKS or 1911's that they had shipped over in the unit weapons pack. So I would not doubt if a unit commander (especially in the army) knows that his infantry unit is going to afghanistan a land of longer distance shots, looks at his TOE and sees a bunch of M4s with AIMPOINTS and decides to do something about it. It is all about the chain of command and how much leeway they have or are willing to catch crap for their troops

 

[Birddog1911]

This is true; Sankum did state the M1A; wasn't trying to disparage Sankum in any way. My thinking was that he meant the M14, my mistake.

 

[C-grunt]

During my two tours in Iraq guys in my unit did have weapons that we picked up while there. But no one was able to bring their own guns. One guy tried smuggling a Glock 22 in his bag, and almost did it, but was article 15'd and maybe court martialled when command found it.

Plus when I shipped out and home, we had customs all up in our stuff.

 

[CZguy]

Plus when I shipped out and home, we had customs all up in our stuff.

 

[jobu07]

USN Customs inspects all cargo before you clear Kuwait and fly home with it (personal bags) or ship it back to the states (containerized equipment).

 

[Zerodefect]

Whats wrong with a Springfield M14?

 

[John Parker]

USN Customs inspects all cargo before you clear Kuwait and fly home with it (personal bags) or ship it back to the states (containerized equipment).

Except for classified pallets escorted by armed couriers.

 

[Coronach]

Whats wrong with a Springfield M14?

They're referring to the modern commercial offerings of Springfield Armory, Incorporated. They're not M14s, they're M1As. Springfield M14s were made in the 1960s by the government armory, not the modern commercial venture. The modern commercial version uses a cast receiver, which is sometimes improperly dimensioned and is allegedly less durable than a properly forged receiver, and also uses non-milspec parts which are also of lesser quality than a true milspec part. Older M1As had a very high percentage of milspec parts, but owing to decline in availability of the parts, they've moved to commercial parts.

Full disclosure, I own an M1A with an unknown number of commercial parts, and it shoots just fine. Stuff will eventually break (milspec or not), but nothing has yet.

Mike

 

[Winston_Smith]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what makes anyone think that guy is holding an M1A and not a real M14?

I think you are correct, I spy a selector switch

 

[Snakum]

Sankum made the comment that carrying a standard M14 was laughable,

The US Army issue M14/M21 SWS including the SEI upgrades are a completely different animal from an M1A. I went to school on the M21 and I am telling ya, it ain't the same. Not even close.

I'd love to have an M21 (you can keep the ART scope ) or even the new Springfield version of it, but I ain't got $3500.

 

[chauncey]

imo a commercial M1A in active duty service is highly improbable, and i think not happening, but nothing is impossible.

in addition to my 0311 MOS in the USMC my college background earned me a lot of secondary bs duties, several of them administrative. one was MIMMS clerk for our boat platoon. we were running zodiacs with non-factory approved rigid deckplates, and twin 35hp Evinrude-Johnson outboard motors with pump jets. long and short of it was, i had to order (or try to order) A LOT of non-NSN gear.

iirc, here's the procurement procedure for non-NSN gear. if i get it wrong someone will have to correct me, it's been over 10 years.

1. prove you need the item. in my case, the system had to be on the TOE, with degraded or no ability to shoot/move/communicate. in other words, the DOD would have to deem the unit needed an M14, and the one they had didn't work or was about to stop working
2. prove you can't get the item in the system. generally, you punch into the MIMMS system and if it shows up over 180 days or something for a deadlined item then you are allowed to go outside the NSN system
3. find the item from a commercial, DOD-approved vendor. who is approved? is Springfield Armory approved?
4. talk someone with more rank than you into the fact that you have done 1-3
5. request the item.
6. wait 10 forevers until something really bad happens and a bunch of **** comes down and you say "but i did 1-5 and nothing ever happened"

now i never worked in the armory so i don't know if it was different for them. also, the only M14's i ever even saw on active duty were drill rifles. a good friend in Security Forces had some, also.

the one point that i will make is that Recon and Special Ops people that i knew never seemed to have any problem getting whatever they wanted. i don't know how it worked, but they seemed to be able to buy whatever they wanted from whoever they wanted. example was that everyone i knew in SOTG (Special Operations Training Group) got Oakley's and a camelback, which at that time were not even considered acceptable to wear in uniform in most units. so for every rule there is an exception.

again, i return to my original point: possible, but highly unlikely

 

[Ignition Override]

greyzone:

Excellent.

A guy with my company who retired after 20 active AF years (F-16s, B-1s) is an academy graduate. Although this has no connection to troops on the ground, a short chat was interesting.

He said that there is no real connection between the academy and the real world. "We had to lie, cheat, steal" were his words, to do their missions.

 

[essayons21]

Not all the M14s in country are the tricked out M21 SWS or the SEI modified M14s. Many DMs, especially NG, are issued old stock, un-accurized M14s, often without optics or mounting systems. With the exception of the selector switch, these are functionally no different from a civilian M1A.

Our SDMs had M16A4s with Aimpoints. They would have swapped for bone-stock iron-sighted m14s/m1as in a heartbeat.

Chauncey:

yep, that pretty much describes the system. However, when a deployment is pending it is often simpler and quicker to use unit funds or solicit donations. We acquired a metric buttload of non-TOE and non-NSN gear this way. The lie, cheat, and steal method figures prominently as well, especially in country.

 

[mshootnit]

I know my M1a may not be milspec, but I have calculated that it is minute of man accurate to over 1000 yards. It would serve someone well.

 

[C-grunt]

USN Customs inspects all cargo before you clear Kuwait and fly home with it (personal bags) or ship it back to the states (containerized equipment).

Hell when we deployed out in january 06, the Navy guys came to our FOB and did the inspections before we ever left country.

 

[Snakum]

With the exception of the selector switch, these are functionally no different from a civilian M1A.

Unless by "functionally" you mean they look alike and have similar actions and they both have a trigger that one must pull back with the barrel pointed towards what you want to shoot ... even if you tried very very hard everyday for a thousand years, you could not possibly be more wrong.

Any soldier currently in theater in a unit that might allow him to actually take a Springfield M1A into combat is not going to be stupid enough to do so, because he will know the difference between and M14/M21 and an M1A. Period. Over and out (they love that in basic). Get over it.

Seriously ... I'm shaking my head on this one. Geeez.

 

[Hangingrock]

Under let us simply agree to disagree and maintain civility; the M1A is no M14. From personal experience with the M14 and the quasi Springfield Armory M1A there is a difference. I’ve owned two M1A rifles one in basic configuration and the other a “Super Match” rendition. Their ok for their intended purpose punching holes in paper and that’s the extent of it.

During my tenure in the Marine Corps at various stages I was issued (1) M1 and (4) M14 rifles. (The manufactures: M1 International Harvester for the M14 (1) Winchester and (3) Harrington & Richardson) At Parris Island I qualified as a Marksman after my tour in Vietnam I qualified Expert with both rifle and pistol annually. At my last duty station GITMO part of my duties assigned as a marksmanship instructor for naval personnel assigned to the defense battalion equipped with M1 rifles converted to 7.62mm-NATO.

In my opinion the M14 @ 500yds (457 meters??) and beyond is best served in a synthetic stock, lugged, special attention paid to the gas system, reamed & aligned flash suppressor.

 

[Snakum]

Under let us simply agree to disagree and maintain civility; the M1A is no M14. From personal experience with the M14 and the quasi Springfield Armory M1A there is a difference.

Agreed.

And btw ... I like your park. I used to go hiking there a lot when I lived in Winston.