m1a reload problem

Status
Not open for further replies.

roval

Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2011
Messages
1,677
Location
New Mexico
I loaded 168 gr hornady match hpbt with imr 4895 41.5 (weighed individually)grains for my m1a. coal was 2.80-2.790 . brass was lake city but there may have been pmc. I chronoed it at 2573 fps . looked at the brass and no signs of high pressure.

I experienced failure to extract with 2-3 cartridges. the m1a didn't cycle. the 1st that I pulled the bolt back on may have been sticky but I think it was me trying to figure out why my gun wasn't firing the subsequent shot but the other 2 times knowing what to expect it did not seem sticky maybe not as easy as pulling an empty bolt back.

maximum was 42.5 grains of imr 4895 albeit data was for sierra bullets.

I shot federal 150 grain factory and winchester 150 grain without issues.

do you guys think it was a high pressure issue?my 1st thought was too little pressure.

I know I should have gone lower but I wanted to try the typical load and if was good to go I would have started tweaking the length.
 
The velocities you are seeing seem inline with the powder charges you are using. When using IMR 4895 with 168 grain match boat tail bullets I load to a COL of 2.800" but with 168 grain bullets I like to keep my powder charges around or below 41 grains, only because I get my best accuracy there with IMR 4895.

You mention the brass was LC and maybe some PMC? Could any of the LC brass have been fired in a machine gun? I assume you just regular full length resized the brass. On the cases that stuck were there any scratch or rub marks just above the case head? If you have some of the cases that stuck measure the case diameter about 0.200" up from the case head. You don't want to see greater than .4703" that being the maximum.

Without seeing the cases and fired primers it's hard to say what the problem was. Detailed pictures help with questions like this.I seriously doubt low pressure was the problem looking at your load data.

Ron
 
With my M1A, I found that many resized cases were just a little longer than those of new factory ammo. This is not withstanding the fact that they were full length resized with a small base die. Mine has never had a hiccup with anything other than handloads and, like yours, seems to have an issue cycling some handloads.

I'm using IMR 4064 by the way, so I'm not going to comment on your IMR 4895 load.
 
I don't have a garand but I remember reading about their loads. You have to use a powder that will provide the correct amount of gas to operate your action. Idk about the powder your using, but it seems 4064 and varget are appropriate. I'd recommend you look up an article on the topic.
 
I don't have a garand but I remember reading about their loads. You have to use a powder that will provide the correct amount of gas to operate your action. Idk about the powder your using, but it seems 4064 and varget are appropriate. I'd recommend you look up an article on the topic.
The original poster has a M1A (think M14 family) and not a M1 Garand. However, you are correct in that when loading for the M1 Garand the hand loader needs to work within certain load limits and powders. The same is true of the M1A / M14 where we don't want to beat the rifle to death. However, the original poster mentions M1A. Good point though as to the M1 Garand and M1A / M14.

Ron
 
Last edited:
I loaded 168 gr hornady match hpbt with imr 4895 41.5 (weighed individually)grains for my m1a. coal was 2.80-2.790 . brass was lake city but there may have been pmc. I chronoed it at 2573 fps . looked at the brass and no signs of high pressure.

I experienced failure to extract with 2-3 cartridges. the m1a didn't cycle. the 1st that I pulled the bolt back on may have been sticky but I think it was me trying to figure out why my gun wasn't firing the subsequent shot but the other 2 times knowing what to expect it did not seem sticky maybe not as easy as pulling an empty bolt back.


Did you full length resize your brass, and did you use a small base die?

For these rifles, you should always full length size, you should set up your sizing die with a case gage, size to gage minimum, and it is best practice to use small base dies.

The case must enter the chamber without any resistance to bolt closure. The case must be smaller than the chamber, ideally the shoulder should be 0.003” less than the chamber, and the case diameter should be such, that upon extraction, it is off the chamber walls as the case moves out. If the case starts out “fat”, it will be clinging to the chamber walls on extraction, and you will experience failures to extract.

Cases fired in another chamber are likely to be too large, even after sizing with a standard based die. Small base dies may reduce a large case enough to be safe in a M1a. But sometimes, even a small base die can’t reduce a ballooned case enough. I have 308 and 30-6 gages, cut by Gene Barnett which are a little out of the ordinary. He cut these gages with his chambering reamer. Standard cartridge headspace gages are cut with a special reamer that is wide in the middle. A standard cartridge headspace gage measures length, not “fatness”. A reamer cut headspace gage will show you if the case is too long and too “fat” for that chamber.

I have a number of 308 small base dies, and I still have my Lee standard die.

I sized a number of my match cases in the Lee die. All of them dropped in the reamer cut case gage. So, if you said you don’t need small base dies, you would be correct most of the time.

So now I had to scratch around trying to find cases that would prove my point.

These two cases are once fired range pickup brass that I found in my brass box. I had to go through about 20 cases before I found a set of really ballooned cases. On the right is the Barnett reamer cut gage.

OncefiredWRA68caseheads.jpg

OncefiredWRA68unsizedincasegages.jpg





If you notice one case has completed dropped into the Wilson cartridge headspace gage, while the other has not dropped into the Barnett reamer cut gage. This shows how much they have swelled up after being fired. Must have been a big chamber.

The second picture is of the fattest of the group after sizing in with Lee Die. I trimmed the thing to make sure that the case neck did not interfere with the throat in the gage.

WRAtrimmedandLeediesizedcase.jpg



Hopefully you can see that the case did not drop all the way in the case gage. At least on its own. It would have taken a good hard push to get that base all the way in.
WRAsizedinLeedie.jpg



This is after resizing in my RCBS small base die. I could not find the RCBS box, so the case/gage are sitting on a Redding small base box. However, that little additional sizing removed the interference fit.

WRAresizedinRCBSSmallbasedie.jpg


Sometimes cases are so ballooned that even a small base die won’t reduce the case to factory dimensions. It all depends on the chamber the round was fired in.

I know it is extra effort to size cases with small base dies, if you use a good lube like Imperial Sizing wax or RCBS case lube, the effort is somewhat reduced. Still for all the extra bother involved in sizing with small base dies I'll do it for my Garands and M1a's. With those rifles I don’t want any resistance to chambering, I don’t want any delay to bolt closure. Because as the bolt stops and the lugs are turning, that darn free floating firing pin is just tapping the heck out of the primer.
 
all the lake city and pmc was once fired by me from the same gun. I looked at it again. there were 6 lc brass and 6 from pmc, FC,cbc. I shot 12 cartridges.

6 of the cartridges were weighed individually and the other 6 were loaded 41.3-41.6 during my spot checks. the events occurred in the individually weighed and the not individually weighed.

they were fully sized using my Wilson case gage for setting up the sizing die. in between the steps but closer to the upper step.

I trimmed this batch to minimum trim length.
 

Attachments

  • 20141012_083522.jpg
    20141012_083522.jpg
    85.4 KB · Views: 12
The Wilson gauge will get you in the park with the cartridge headspace dimensions. It will not measure the cartridge base diameter. Note the gauge SlamFire posted above that was cut from a chamber reamer. My guess is your cartridges are wide at the base. When you full length resized, per SlamFire, did you use standard or small base dies? What is the base dimension I asked about?

Ron
 
I loaded 168 gr hornady match hpbt with imr 4895 41.5 (weighed individually)grains for my m1a. coal was 2.80-2.790 . brass was lake city but there may have been pmc. I chronoed it at 2573 fps . looked at the brass and no signs of high pressure.

maximum was 42.5 grains of imr 4895 albeit data was for sierra bullets.

do you guys think it was a high pressure issue?my 1st thought was too little pressure.
I doubt it was too low a pressure at those charge weights. How many total rounds did you fire, to get those 2-3 that did not extract? Were the ones that did not extract the ones using the 42.5 gr of IMR 4895? If so, you may have been "knocking on the door" of too high a pressure, and may have had a couple of cases that did not size far enough for a proper chamber fit.

I also have a SAI M1A, and shoot about 90% reloads (other 10% is WCC NATO factory 148 FMJ). I use only WCC or LC brass (with an occasional 'stray' of some other NATO brass). I use three different bullets, either a Hornady 168 AMAX, Hornady 168 Match, or Sierra 168 MK. I will use either IMR 4895 or H 4895, and have found my sweet spot is IMR4895 at 41 grains, and H4895 at 40.5. Your rifle may differ somewhat, but it seems that Springfield sized the M1A chamber to use standard-sized .308 pretty reliably. So far, I've not had a single failure to extract or action malfunction in close to 1500 rounds through my rifle.

I've not loaded past 42 grains with either powder. I use a standard FL RCBS die, and trim to 2.010, use Win Lg rifle primers and seat them as deep as the tool will seat them (they measure about 0.005 below the case head). Seating depth is 2.800 for all three bullet types I use. I have a Redding SB die, but haven't used it since I find the std die works well enough. I check each sized case with a Wilson gauge, and have noted that rarely I'll get a case that doesn't readily seat in the gauge like Wilson instructs. I'll set those aside and then run them through the SB die, and then thy fit. I can only assume that those cases were either fired in an MG with a somewhat worn chamber, or have some other anomaly with the original loading. The LC brass I use is bought unprocessed, so I have to deprime it and my sizing is the first one since it was originally fired, unlike getting brass that has been deprimed and sized by the seller. That means I also have to remove the primer crimp and it increases the overall work for me, but it also gives me more control over the case condition when it's ready to reload.
 
It ought to cycle fine waaaay below 41.5grs. I shoot 125s w/ 39.5gr. If the brass is fired from your rifle, resized and trimmed properly, then I'd say it's a gun issue.

Clean the chamber. Clean the gas system (which is left dry).
Check the fired brass for rings (which would indicate that the chamber was cut poorly)
I've seen a loose oprod guide cause problems

Extractors have been a source of gobs of problems. SAInc has not done well there at all. Find a GI one.
 
My guess is your cartridges are wide at the base. When you full length resized, per SlamFire, did you use standard or small base dies? What is the base dimension I asked about?
the base dimensions are .468-470 . I shot 12 cartridges. I put the remainder of the 100 that I loaded through the case gauge again and 3 were like the one below but even here the base dimension was .468.

what causes this when you already have the sizing die set up and assuming it wasn't an incomplete pull on the lever. this looks like one of my own lc brass that I fired from the same gun. of the 3 I found 2 were lake city and one cbc which was definitely range brass. other loaded cbcs were fine though.

i'll pull the 3 bullets.
 

Attachments

  • 20141012_155425.jpg
    20141012_155425.jpg
    43.5 KB · Views: 21
Unless the rim is bent or has a burr that is not letting the cartridge fully enter the gauge, This is an indication of one of two things. You're NOT bumping the shoulder enough or your not sizing the base enough. If your measurement of .468" accurate at the base, you're NOT F/L resizing the shoulder (bumping it back) enough.

This can be caused by inadequate or improper lubrication of the case, running the cases too fast into the die, your press flexing too much or a combination of these. Try another case lubricant and let the case stay in the die at the up strike of the ram for about 3 seconds. It also helps to run the case into the die, lower the ram, rotate the case 180º and run the case into the die again. Then measure in your case gauge.

Different brands of cases can spring back differently and may need more sizing than others. Annealing cases can help the work hardening of the neck and shoulders.
 
Last edited:
First make sure that the sizing die is adjusted so that the shell holder contacts the base of the die when the ram is at the top of its stroke when resizing a case. This ensures that the sizing die is bumping the shoulder back as well as reducing the diameter of the case. If the shell holder does not contact the base of the die, the diameter of the case is squeezed down, making the case (and distance to the shoulder) longer. http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/141/0/cant-close-bolt-on-rifle
 
Set up my sizing die by letting it contact the shell holder. Lowered the ram and turned the die 1/8 more. Sized another brass and checked on my Wilson gage and was sized correctly. Did the same with the 3 problem cases but still no go. Even turned the cases 180 degrees.

If I get a lot of cases like that I will consider gettingerr r a small base die. What I dont get is why it would happen if the brass was fired from the same gun where the other brass had no problem getting resized properly. One of the 3had a pinched rim and would not enter the cases gage base first that was the range brass. The other 2 were from my gun.
 
When you full length resized, per SlamFire, did you use standard or small base dies?

I use small base dies for all my 223, 308 and 30-06 ammunition. If I could find more small base dies, I would use those.
 
"...the cartridge headspace..." No such thing. Cartridges do not have headspace.
"...should have gone lower..." You're close to minimum at 41.5. Minimum being 41.0. Who made the bullet doesn't matter either. Sounds more like you missed 'em with powder. They go bang and not extract?
"...the shell holder contacts the base of the die..." Just a kiss. Not a bash. Not having the die set up right doesn't explain the extraction issue though. Would explain for a chambering issue.
It's FL or SB's, not both or one vs the other. Small base dies re-size a few thou smaller, but you use one orthe other. Which one shouldn't matter.
Never had any feeding or extraction issues with my semi'd Winchester M-14 using a regular FL die. No gauges or anything else.
 
Reloading for the M1A... can be quite "trying"...

They are fussy... so you are still in the learning zone...

Lots of cases experience "spring back" after being resized.

Sooner or later you will see that with LC brass.

I also believe this is a sizing issue.

A lot of excellent info in this thread.

You might find these articles helpful....

The first two are very helpful...

http://www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html
 
"...the cartridge headspace..." No such thing. Cartridges do not have headspace.
"...should have gone lower..." You're close to minimum at 41.5. Minimum being 41.0. Who made the bullet doesn't matter either. Sounds more like you missed 'em with powder. They go bang and not extract?
"...the shell holder contacts the base of the die..." Just a kiss. Not a bash. Not having the die set up right doesn't explain the extraction issue though. Would explain for a chambering issue.
It's FL or SB's, not both or one vs the other. Small base dies re-size a few thou smaller, but you use one orthe other. Which one shouldn't matter.
Never had any feeding or extraction issues with my semi'd Winchester M-14 using a regular FL die. No gauges or anything else.

Sunray while myself and a dozen other forum members (Fguffy comes to mind) could not agree more that chambers have a headspace dimension and cartridges don't unfortunately the term cartridge headspace has become so widely used it is pretty much accepted.

Looking at the SAAMI dimensions for example of a 308 Winchester cartridge and chamber, it becomes obvious only the chamber has a headspace dimension labeled as such. The small circle with the centered x denotes the headspace dimension.

Unfortunately so many manufacturers of case gauges choose to name them things like: L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage and use a description like:
The Case Length Headspace Gage allows reloaders to measure case length from the base of the cartridge to the shoulder, as well as the maximum case length. This process shows the reloader if ammunition is being produced within SAAMI specifications.

Rather than seem like a hopeless pedantic I just tossed myself in with the mainstream. Seems if I call that dimension anything else on a cartridge case people don't know what I am referring to. :(

Ron
 
You may have a few pieces of brass that have more firings than your others. Brass work hardens with every cycle, fire/resize. Harder brass has more spring back. So the harder brass will not size down to the same size as one with less. (Example: You size a brass and the head space measurement is -0.002". The one fired a couple of times may end up at +0.002" using the same die setting.)

You may need to set up and anneal the brass to get every thing uniform.
 
Sunray while myself and a dozen other forum members (Fguffy comes to mind) could not agree more that chambers have a headspace dimension and cartridges don't unfortunately the term cartridge headspace has become so widely used it is pretty much accepted.

Looking at the SAAMI dimensions for example of a 308 Winchester cartridge and chamber, it becomes obvious only the chamber has a headspace dimension labeled as such. The small circle with the centered x denotes the headspace dimension.

Unfortunately so many manufacturers of case gauges choose to name them things like: L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gage and use a description like:

The Case Length Headspace Gage allows reloaders to measure case length from the base of the cartridge to the shoulder, as well as the maximum case length. This process shows the reloader if ammunition is being produced within SAAMI specifications.

Rather than seem like a hopeless pedantic I just tossed myself in with the mainstream. Seems if I call that dimension anything else on a cartridge case people don't know what I am referring to.

I don't agree that cartridges don't have "headspace", but I will agree that we ought to argue over something more productive, like whether it should be called a 45 "Long Colt" cartridge, or 45 "Colt".

Now there is something worth debating :rolleyes:
I had 223 brass the Wilson didnt like. The M16 chamber didnt care, it ate them.

Some mechanisms will crush fit oversized brass, others, and there a lot of threads on this, won't chamber the rounds. Crush fit rounds in a Garand mechanism, where the firing pin is rebounding off the primer before the lugs are engaged, it turns out that is the most common cause for out of battery slamfires.
 
I don't agree that cartridges don't have "headspace", but I will agree that we ought to argue over something more productive, like whether it should be called a 45 "Long Colt" cartridge, or 45 "Colt".

Now there is something worth debating

Thank you. :) Morning coffee through the nose.

Ron
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top