M1a's -am I missing something, Part Deux

[General Disarray]

So I think this thread I started has convinced me to keep my M1a Bush Rifle after all. It appears I was in fact missing something.

I had created a "price check" thread for my SAI Bush Rifle, and without even listing it for sale someone contacted me about buying it and offered me what I'd want for it. Perfect, right? But now that discussion has actually made me re-think whether or not I should spend more time getting to know it before shipping it off.

So tonight I took it out of it's E2 pistol grip stock, and back into it's original which I haven't done in many months. I actually have a pretty desirable little shooter here that I think I've taken it for granted. It's got USGI bolt, trigger, and OP-Rod from TRW, for one thing, and it hasn't even barely been broken in. I think I need another range trip with just me and the Bushy; no other rifles this time.

So in that previous discussion the sight radius was brought up by several owners as a big plus, as well as the sights. With an 18" barrel like I guess I'm missing out on this sight radius thing? I don't know the difference. I kind of wish I had a 22" also to compare. Anyone who has both think I'm missing out on not having a full size?

*I'm in it to win it now, so tell me what I've been over-looking.

*Should I swap out this fiberglass stock for a Walnut to get the "full experience"? What about that E2 (bottom pic)? I'm thinking ditch it.

*Should I turn away from the steel targets for a time and focus on making small groups on paper? What distance, what position (prone or bench), what paper target?

*Will this 18" have the same legendary accuracy of the full sized?

*It did FTE a couple of my reloads last time out. Is this a pressure thing from my hand-loads? It never did that before with factory.

 

[HM2PAC]

I would say stay with the fiberglas stock for now. Pick up a walnut down the road.

You NEED a good GI sling. Makes shooting and retaining the rifle so much easier.

A pointy thing for the muzzle end would be a nice touch.

Practice prone, sitting, and standing. Using a bench is nice to get to know the rifle and what it is capable of, but rather impractical.

Range reports......always interesting to read. Hope to see yours soon.

 

[Kingcreek]

My M1a Bush rifle is more accurate than it was ever expected to be and for some freakish reason (good luck?), it shoots different loads to the same place. I like the 18" rifle best in the standard stock and iron sights but I have mounted a scope sometimes for hunting. I tried a muzzle break which does a nice job of both reducing recoil and greatly increasing noise. I had a SuperMatch but sold it awhile back because I am no longer shooting highpower.

 

[nbkky71]

Wood is sexy on an M1A, but you can't beat the durability of the synthetic stock. I went with a McMillan stock on my supermatch after years of shooting highpower with a wood stock. I swapped stocks after my rifle got a thorough soaking once in the summer monsoon at Camp Perry.

I'd SWAG the value of the E2 stock to be somewhere in the $300 range. It would be significatly more if it had all the original USGI hardware on it.

You do give up some velocity due to the shorter barrel, but accuracy should not suffer for it. Group size will depend on the ammo that you feed the rifle.

If you want to see what the rifle is capable of, I'd recommend shooting the gold standard in accuracy: USGI M852 or Federal 168gr Gold Medal Match. Shoot the rifle benched and off a rest and/or bags to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Steel is fun, but I prefer shooting paper targets. You can't go wrong using the NRA highpower rifle targets. 100yd = SR1, 200yd = SR, 300yd = SR-3, 500yd = MR, 600yd = MR-1

If you want to start shooting positions, you'll definitely need a good sling to provide solid support. Prone is most stable position, followed by sitting, and it will take quite a bit of practice to master the positions. Check out any local NRA Highpower matches in your area and you'll get a good idea of what position shooting is.

Would your FTE issue be a failure to extract, or a failure to eject? It's kind of hard to guess as to what the issue is without knowing the details of your reloads.

 

[henschman]

I prefer fiberglass to wood, especially if you're not going to glass bed the rifle. The glass stocks fit tighter than wood, and they don't swell and shrink with moisture, so they generally allow for a tad bit better accuracy. Plus you can paint them to match any season with a rattle can. I really like that current OD color you have, btw.

As for whether you are missing out on something with the shorter sight radius... on one hand, it is only 4 inches. On the other hand, any increase in sight radius is a good thing, and make the clicks on your rear sight 1 MOA instead of some slightly larger fractional amount. I don't know if you have a NM .062 front sight on that rifle (if you do, "NM .062" will be stamped on the sight), but if not, you might benefit from one. A GI front sight is already fat enough, and would be even fatter in your sight picture on a Bush rifle. A fat front sight makes precise shooting a little more difficult.

I also recommend shooting the rifle in low light, as in evening time around sunset, and see how you like the muzzle flash. If you want this for a battle rifle type role, that may be a drawback for you. Muzzle flash is increased quite a bit on the shorter barreled .308s, since they're not buring all the powder in the barrel (which is also why they have lower muzzle velocity).

As for accuracy, 18" rifles are just as accurate as a comparable barrel in 22". However, they do have a shorter max effective range, since they produce lower velocities. This makes shooting in the wind more difficult, especially at longer distances (you might start noticing it out past 400 yards or so). It also means it is not as ballistically effective at longer ranges, and you will have a more "rainbow-like" trajectory, which means you will have to make more elevation come-ups for each distance than you would on a flatter-shooting 22" barreled rifle. It is still easily a 600 yard rifle with surplus ammo, though.

The plusses of a Bush, like I said in the last thread, is that it is half a pound lighter than one with a GI barrel, and a little more maneuverable with those 4 less inches.

I personally won't own a .308 with less than a 20" barrel, but I may have different considerations than you.

 

[henschman]

Oh, and +3 on getting a GI web sling, M-1 or M-14 issue, and learning how to use it to stabilize the rifle in both the "loop" and "hasty" configurations. If you bring that rifle, a GI web sling, at least 1 extra mag, and about 400 rounds of ammo to an Appleseed marksmanship clinic, we will show you everything you need to know about how to put it to it's proper use from field positions, i.e. standing, kneeling, seated, and prone. We shoot the original Army Qualification Test they used with the M-1s and M-14's, which is a blast to shoot. You will hear some awesome Revolutionary War history, too. Check out the website: www.appleseedinfo.org It is an all volunteer organization, dedicated to restoring our American heritage of marksmanship, so we try to keep the costs low. It's just $70 for a weekend clinic, which is an amazing deal considering the quality instruction you will get.

Also, a lot of Appleseed folk are also M-14 folk, so one of the instructors will likely have a full-length model that you can try out (Appleseed folks are also very generous folks, as well as being outstanding marksmanship instructors). I think you might appreciate that rifle a lot more after you shoot it the way it was meant to be shot, which you will if you go to an Appleseed.

 

[General Disarray]

henchman, right below your post was an ad for Appleseed dot org, so I clicked on it and that just sounds fantastic. We've got one coming up here in my area in April. So cool. I can't believe it's only $70. I always thought rifle classes were $4-$500. I'm totally going. I've played with those targets before, so I'm somewhat familiar with the deal. They have them in the Gun Bible by Boston T. Party so I printed a few and shot em up. I'm psyched to get some real training though. Thanks.

 

[General Disarray]

Soooo, like I said I have a buyer who would take my Bushy for what I've got into it. I'm wondering from those who might know about both if I shouldn't switch out for a classic, or do I still not realize the jewel I have?

 

[NWCP]

And here I thought you were going to give yourself a chance to see just what you can do with your current rifle. Had me fooled.

 

[General Disarray]

I am going to spend some time shooting it tomorrow. I'm on board with spending range time learning how to become proficient with these M1a's; I'm just looking for insight from folks who have both to see if I wouldn't be better served with a standard since I can't have both, ya know? I have a buyer for this one if I want to sell it, so I kind put myself under the gun, so to speak.

 

[The Real Wyatt]

"Should I turn away from the steel targets for a time and focus on making small groups on paper? What distance, what position (prone or bench), what paper target?"

----------------------

As I recall from my days in the USMC our marksmanship qualification course consisted of shooting our Garands at a paper target about 4' X 4' with an 8" black bullseye in the center.

We shot slow-fire offhand, rapid fire kneeling and rapid fire sitting at 200 yards. We then moved back to 300 yards and shot slow-fire sitting and rapid fire prone from there. At 500 yards we shot slow-fire prone. We fired 50 rounds total ... 5 points for each hole in the black on out to 0 points for "Maggies Drawers", a complete miss.

I don't recall the score breakdowns, but there were 4 qualifications. Unqualified, Marksman, Sharpshooter and Expert Rifleman. I do remember that in order to make Expert you had to score at least 220 out of the possible 250 points. It behooved one to fire expert, 'cause you got paid more ... $5.00 per month which was considerable when as a Private you were making only $68.00 per month.

So get on out there and punch some holes in paper. Your M1A is certainly up to it as long as you do your part. Most of all ... have fun!

 

[General Disarray]

Thanks. And thanks henchman for reminding me about Appleseeds. I'm signing out for the local one coming up in April.

So like I said, I'm on board with spending range time learning how to become proficient with these M1a's; I'm just looking for insight from folks who have both an 18" like I have, and standard size to see if I wouldn't be better served with a standard since I can't have both. Right now I have a buyer for my Bush rifle if I want to sell it, so I kind put myself under the gun, so to speak. Just looking for insight on the two rifles, and if I wouldn't be better served with a standard for reasons that might be unbeknownst to me?

 

[Welding Rod]

Man alive no wonder you didn't like that rifle. No offense, but that "E2" stock has got to be the ugliest thing I have ever seen added to a gun!

I would put a wood stock and brown handguard on it, add a good sling, zero it with a load you plan to feed it exclusively, and bang steel from various shooting positions like crazy.

 

[General Disarray]

Man alive no wonder you didn't like that rifle. No offense, but that "E2" stock has got to be the ugliest thing I have ever seen added to a gun!

I would put a wood stock and brown handguard on it, add a good sling, zero it with a load you plan to feed it exclusively, and bang steel from various shooting positions like crazy.

That's funny; I know that E2 is kinda ghetto, isn't it? I was fixated on getting it into a pistol grip configuration when I first got it, but I didn't want to spend a fortune on a SAGE EBR, Vltor, etc, so when I saw that at a gun show I snagged it. It is a problem in that there's no swivel attachments for a sling, and the length of pull is too short as well. I think that stock might be the reason I've fallen out of favor with this rifle, ya know?

Anyone got any input on whether I wouldn't be better served with a standard M1a instead of this Bushy for reasons that might be unbeknownst to me?

 

[JRntEwing]

You've got the best of both worlds in that 18" M1-A. Not so long as to be unwieldy indoors or in heavy brush, but not so short that you give up meaningful fps. I'd leave it as you bought it in the fiberglass stock.
I think the E2 stock had a shorter L.O.P. than normal because it was intended to be used prone, full-auto, from the bipod. That never worked very well because the weapon is too light to be effective in that mode. It's not very pretty either.
If you're looking to put a pistol grip on it look around for one of these:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fidelisfirearms.com/images/firearms/BM59/BM59_3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.huntingtexasonline.com/ubbthreads.php%3Fubb%3Dshowflat%26Number%3D11970&usg=__yQ_A4CkNubv_U5RheFnS-wqTC9s=&h=868&w=2034&sz=243&hl=en&start=6&sig2=XoHLVfIYTZNFGg8eFzWHaQ&zoom=1&tbnid=GuYL3guB4r_5BM:&tbnh=58&tbnw=136&ei=XftVTfD_NonksQOEndydDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSpringfield%2BArmory%2BBM59%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26pwst%3D1%26biw%3D747%26bih%3D357%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C309&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=365&vpy=98&dur=9137&hovh=146&hovw=344&tx=172&ty=58&oei=WftVTZ6HB5LSsAOh8Ni2BQ&page=2&ndsp=8&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:6&biw=747&bih=357

I've got one for my Beretta BM-62. Bought it from Springfield Armory 25 years ago but I doubt if that is a viable source for them now. Might find one on Gunbroker but you'd have to figure out the search words. It was extremely stiff to collapse & fold when new but broke in nicely with use and the L.O.P. is about an inch shorter than I would like. That said, 95% of the time mine wears the walnut stock it came with. Mine has a 16" barrel and while it is VERY quick & handy, well-suited for close to medium distance, it is LOUD. That 18 incher you've got is a peach, wish they had been around when I was buying.

 

[JRntEwing]

I also meant to add...

Go shoot an Appleseed. I've been shooting since I was 8 (49 years ago) and those guys taught me a lot. Take a .22 for the first day...you may decide to use it again on the second day, like me. It's harder to qualify than it sounds. All the techniques will transfer over when you're ready for the big gun. Recoil and ammo cost kept my .308 in the trunk for the first two sessions.

Also...
Keep the reloads for your non-battlerifle. One bad round can RUIN that $1000+ rifle. Clint at Fulton Armory salvaged mine but it was a close-run thing.

 

[General Disarray]

Also...
Keep the reloads for your non-battlerifle. One bad round can RUIN that $1000+ rifle. Clint at Fulton Armory salvaged mine but it was a close-run thing.

I only shoot reloads.

 

[triggernick]

If you decide not to keep it, PM me seriously... I have a full size that I use for bench shooting, but it's a bit heavy for anything other than a range gun (i have a heavy weight barrel, walnut stock with adjustable comb, and a scope on her....15 lbs + HEAVY). I'm looking to add a bush to my collection for easier handling

 

[longdayjake]

I am curious as to what grain bullets you used that were failing to eject. I have found that the shorter barrel m1a's are much pickier as to which ammo they will shoot. What I have been doing with my m1a is making a virtual copy of m118LR. I have bought about 3000 of the pulled m118 bullets. They have pull marks but I haven't noticed any difference in accuracy from a new bullet. Also, if you do end up selling what you have right now I would end up using the money to buy a loaded version or a NM. That way you will get to use the 22" barrel and sight radius and get the most out of your toy.

 

[Pat M]

After reading this thread last week, I took the M1A (Springfield standard) to the range yesterday and fired five 5-shot groups at 100yds with UMC 150gr. ammo, prone wrapped in the sling. The best group I could muster was about 3 inches with one flyer. I still don't know if it is me changing my cheek weld after recoil, or the rifle.

 

[jeepguy]

that part in your post about getting pm about buying your rifle i almost sent you one also but thought it might be inappropriate so i didn't. i would definitely stick with the fiberglass stock mine shoots great in the usgi fiberglass stock. my bush shoots better then my ss loaded model, i don't know why but a little better. good shooting and i hope you enjoy your m1a at the range.

 

[General Disarray]

that part in your post about getting pm about buying your rifle i almost sent you one also but thought it might be inappropriate so i didn't. i would definitely stick with the fiberglass stock mine shoots great in the usgi fiberglass stock. my bush shoots better then my ss loaded model, i don't know why but a little better. good shooting and i hope you enjoy your m1a at the range.

jeepguy, is your Bush rifle a pre-ban model? If so wouldn't it shoot better because it's got a USGI trigger, bolt, and op rod? Mine has a TRW trigger, bolt and OR, which I would assume makes a huge difference compared to one with cast parts from SAI, ya know?

I just shot mine today. I put it back in it's fiberglass stock with nylon sling. I set up Army Qual targets (the 5V kind) at 25 meters; the sight in groups were all touching each other. Standing and sitting I stuck 'em all in or on the edge of the 5V ring. Then I shot two 20 round mags at the steel targets lining our range's hillside. I think I needed a day out with just this rifle and plenty of time. What a great time. I really have come around to liking this thing.

I'm still hung up a bit on how much cash I have tied up in it, but I'm trying to set that out of my mind for now. After all, I have a Savage 10 that was $700, and two FAL's that were $750 each. This Bush rifle was twice that, so I can't help but ask: is it twice the rifle, ya know? I'm going to suspend that debate for now, cuz it's taking the fun out of owning this cool rifle.

 

[jeepguy]

my rifle was built on 03/90. i think when you find "the one" she's worth every penny. mine has a trw bolt, an hra trigger & op rod, usgi fiberglass stock and several other usgi parts. i paid $1250 for it, then i bought a ultimak for $200, a aimpoint for 400, and a smith muzzle break for $100 so i know what your saying. all that & it is by far ny favorite rifle. i bought it at the end of last year so i was only able to shoot her for two months. this year she will go out with me every time along with one of my other rifles. im also going to have my ss loaded rebarled to scout length & see what she will do. so i know what you mean about being exspensive but i just love shooting the m14/m1a series of rifles more then my ar 15 & mini 14 which was my favorite. plus the rifles i don't have any more a usgi postal meter m1 carbine, a 10/22 & a .308 israeli mauser. if i could only keep one it would be this one. plus with so many usgi parts it feels like i own a piece of history like when i had that m1 carbine. to me it just feels right all the way around. you might enjoy shooting for groups at further distances to see which you shoot best. i am courious to see what your thoughts are in a few months. so good shooting and i hope you enjoy. jeepguy

 

[Onmilo]

Three barrels and 20 years later, I have no desire to ever sell my Bush rifle.
It is stuffed into a SAGE aluminum chassis stock now.

 

[General Disarray]

So the barrels have worn, but the rest of the parts (op-rod, bolt) arse fine huh? That says a lot. I had mine in a SAGE, but I couldn't handle how front-end top heavy it made it. I get the appeal, though. I'm keeping this one old school for now.