M4gery hate

[Bartholomew Roberts]

(I'd probably be a bit less biased if my own pre-'94 Colt Competition HBAR didn't choke to a halt after every 200 or so rounds until I cleaned it spotless again...)

Something is mechanically wrong with that gun.

I've fired 800rds in a single day through an AR with no cleaning at all and only a shot of CLP through the ejection port around the 450 mark. I've also never seen a case of stoppage caused by solely by fouling from direct gas impingement in 15 years of using the system, so long as CLP is occasionally added.

 

[Mulliga]

I would love to hear the opinions of those that actually have to use the carbine where it counts, on the front line, and hear what they think of it.

Seems everyone wants one:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=219366

Something is mechanically wrong with that gun.

Ditto. 200 rounds is nothing for an AR.

 

[Zak Smith]

Ditto. 200 rounds is nothing for an AR.

Yup. I shot 1000 rounds in 3 days at the ITRC last year, including about 550 rounds in about 20 minutes for the high intensity carbine stage. 0 malfunctions. And that was my JP rifle which most would call a "race gun." A regular day of practice is about 350-500 rounds, and I don't clean after that either.

 

[artherd]

I just find it ironic, re: 20" M16A2 HBAR weighing less than an M4 once "properly" equipped. How many steps forward vs. backwards is that?

What exactly do the "Iron sight and standard handgard ONLY!" types do exactly at night?

Throw sticks?

The 'techie goo-dads' have a place. IR illuminators are to be used with NVGs and give such an incredible advantage, well, it's literally night and day. A quality IR illuminator is not heavy either.

White lights let you make sure you're not shooting your neighbor's kid.

Verticle foregrips aren't essential buy do make for a QUICK, comfortable, and COMPACT stance when moving through tight quarters.

Aimpoints let our guys shoot first, and shoot on target. Or ACOGs do this 4x

So, basically a 'properly equiped' night fighting AR even with an ACOG too will weigh less than an iron-sighted M14, which will be good for whiping your tookis with after dusk.

 

[cracked butt]

I'm not much of an AR fan, but I wouldn't mind a carbine.

The M4 seems like a winning combination of firepower and utility to me.

Consider it predecessors in the military- roles the M4 can replace:

Thompson M1 and M1928- these not only fire a less powerful cartridge but an unloaded example is still much heavier than a pimped out M4.

M1 carbine- Fires an anemic cartridge when compared to even the mousegun.

 

[444]

No,itgoesboom don't get paranoid. I simply enjoy debating these various topics. I understand what you are saying, I just don't understand why people think like this. Why rain on someone else's parade ? If someone is having gun with whatever they own, good for them.

 

[MrMurphy]

Actually, a loaded M1928A1 with a drum and a M4 with all the toys weigh nearly the same. I've handled them side by side. The Thompson is still a bit more, but not much.


I've run a couple mags of BLANKS! (which are notorious for jamming due to low gas, not enough to make the gun work) through an M16A2, while dragging it through the mud and dirt lowcrawling across a combat assault course, submerging it in a pool of water that was usually the barbed wire pit (except for the tip of the muzzle and my mouth, I was underwater) and in general getting it covered in Kentucky mud and dirt and 300% more dirty than any AR usually gets in it's life.

The rifle still only had three jams, and all were quickly cleared and due to the blanks themselves (failure to extract all the way).

Never had a problem with live rounds.

In about six months the USAF will be giving me my own M4 (the real kind) and some ammo, and then I'll see how the haji's don't like it.

 

[itgoesboom]

444,

Ok, I was just making sure.

I agree, I hope people buy what they want, and do what they want with it. And the M4geries are great for mounted extra stuff on it.

In fact, if I was to be able to afford one, I would probably have half the stuff I described above .

But people doing that is what turns off a lot of people to the M4.

I.G.B.

 

[TechBrute]

But people doing that is what turns off a lot of people to the M4.

So what? If people are so narrow-minded and ignorant that what someone else is doing to their gun affects what they do, then so be it. That's like not wanting a mil-surp because someone bubba'd one up and hunts with it (or not wanting a Cadillac because you saw one with spinners.) It's their gun. Maybe they can start a "Save the Guns" charity and buy up all the guns in the world so no-one will be able to modify them in some way they see unfit.

 

[444]

Cowboy Action shooters dress up like we imagine cowboys would look like and shoot guns that we consider to be "cowboy" guns.
There are guys that reenact Civil War battles. There are guys that dress up like mountain men and have reenactments of fur trading events.
I am an avid patricipant in a local sport where we shoot vintage bolt action military rifles. If you dress in an authentic uniform to shoot the match you get a couple extra points and if you shoot the match with a bayonet, you get a couple more extra points.
None of this stuff is earth shaking. Some of these sports are considered mainstream and no one bats an eye at them.
BUT if you want to dress up your AR15 with all the gadgets you see our soldiers using in combat you are a wannabe, fat slob that can't shoot.

 

[Gewehr98]

Wow!

I don't think a thread could have gotten more hostile had I invoked Godwin's Law.

And I didn't call anybody naive or fat.

 

[George Hill]

I hate the AR-15...
http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Hate_the_AR15.htm

 

[iamkris]

I "hated" the AR because all my buddies did when I was in my 20's and 30's. I was a 308 man...all else be d@^*#%! My cup of tea was FAL's, M1As, Garands, etc, etc (see attached battle rifle collection).

A few years ago, though, I thought I ought to get one to see how bad they were. DPMS collapsible lower (well, at least now it is) and J&T M4-gery upper. Gotta admit, that little carbine has grown on me. Reliable, fairly accurate. Crappy trigger but I can get that fixed. It just gobbles up anything I put in it. I wouldn't hesitate to use it if I had to in an urban situation. And if I had to hump 20 miles with a full ruck, I'd certainly rather be carrying my M4 than my StG!

I don't claim to refute anyone who has had to depend on this rifle/cartridge combo in the military/police...just my very limited experiences to date.

 

[tyme]

I always thought that a "m4gery" meant one or several of:
-16" rather than 14.5" barrel
-faux collapsible stock (post-ban, pinned)
-no bayonet lug
-no flash hider, no threading for one

If someone bothers to jump through hoops to get tax stamps for a SBR and for a grenade launcher, it's not really an m4gery anymore, is it? It may still be a jam-o-matic and it may still belong to an armchair commando, but it's not an m4gery.

 

[itgoesboom]

Cowboy Action shooters dress up like we imagine cowboys would look like and shoot guns that we consider to be "cowboy" guns.
There are guys that reenact Civil War battles. There are guys that dress up like mountain men and have reenactments of fur trading events.

BUT if you want to dress up your AR15 with all the gadgets you see our soldiers using in combat you are a wannabe, fat slob that can't shoo

Pretty hypocritical, huh?

Like I said, just pointing out where some of the hate is from, not that I agreed with it.

I.G.B.

 

[444]

"If someone bothers to jump through hoops to get tax stamps for a SBR and for a grenade launcher, it's not really an m4gery anymore, is it? "

Yes, it is.
It still isn't an M4 unless it says M4 on it, and a real M4 is select fire.

 

[Mute]

Hell. I would think that if you were going to add all those bells and whistles, you'd want to add it to the lightest, practical platform you can get, not a bigger heavier one.

 

[fistful]

The M4 is a military weapon. It is issued with a rail system, optic, white light, suppressor, IR illuminator etc.

Actually, it is issued with a magazine and sling. Glass sights and electronics are seperately issued and seperately hand-receipted. And optic is an adjective, as in the sentence, "All sights are optical sights."

The reason guys want shorter carbines is so they can maneuver better in close quarters and in and out of vehicles.

When I was in a Mechanized Infantry Unit (First Cav) most guys wanted M4s for two reasons:

1) They are easier to carry regardless of how much time you spend in an armored vehicle. They don't get in the way so much in the chow line.

2) 'Cause they look so cool. Delta Force uses 'em man!

Neither is neccesarily a good reason to issue a weapon with a too-short barrel and an ergonomically-challenged stock.

 

[TechBrute]

And optic is an adjective, as in the sentence, "All sights are optical sights."

You should make sure you are correct before you start correcting people. The word "optic" is a noun or adjective.

From M-W.com

Main Entry: 1op·tic
Pronunciation: 'äp-tik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French optique, from Medieval Latin opticus, from Greek optikos, from opsesthai to be going to see; akin to Greek opsis appearance, Ops eye -- more at EYE
: of or relating to vision or the eye

Main Entry: 2optic
Function: noun
1 : EYE
2 a : any of the elements (as lenses, mirrors, or light guides) of an optical instrument or system -- usually used in plural b : an optical instrument

 

[ny32182]

I've always used the term "M4gery" when referring to a semi-auto M4 lookalike of any make.

Sort of off topic: Everyone knows that most of the M4s issued in the military are 14.5". Are there any carbines issued in the military with 16" M4 profile barrels, and if so are these "M4s", or do they have a different designation?

 

[BigG]

I had a couple of the Colt SP1 carbines which are as close to a "real" carbine as most of us are likely to get. They are great guns.

I guess one thing about the "M4gery" as listed in this thread. I can see why the military has all kinds of doodads to better do their job. Police officers on the street also may need the tactical doodads, of course. The Walter Mitty guys with all the tactical doodads make me chuckle. Of course there are guys who play video game type tactics with real guns and they like all the doodads that will fit. Different strokes for different folks...

I had the standard carbine with the carry handle. Also a Colt Gomt Carbine with the carry handle. No doodads other than bayonets that wouldn't fit anyway because of the 16" bbls.

 

[Correia]

For all of you guys who are getting offended on this thread, just chill and look at it this way.

1. It is my money.

and

2. Can they shoot better than me?

if Yes: Then I will listen and evaluate what they have to say, and then make decisions based upon what is best for me, and not for them.

if No: They can take a flying leap.


And for #2, if you can do it, it ain't bragging. So I find that for the most part, I could care less what other people think about my personal guns and what I choose to stick on them.

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Techbrute: It's their gun. Maybe they can start a "Save the Guns" charity and buy up all the guns in the world so no-one will be able to modify them in some way they see unfit.

If we banned the guns, this wouldn't be a problem.

 

[fistful]

You should make sure you are correct before you start correcting people. The word "optic" is a noun or adjective.

I am sure that I am correct. I suspect that your chosen lexicographers have altered the definition to keep up with current, and incorrect, usage. My main complaint remains that "optical sight" is redundant.

 

[TechBrute]

I am sure that I am correct. I suspect that your chosen lexicographers have altered the definition to keep up with current, and incorrect, usage.

Well, you choose yours, I'll choose mine. Takes someone that's really sure of himself to tell Marriam-Webster that they don't know the english language.

Ok, enough of the thread hijack. Sorry about that...