Mace or Spray recommendations for my mother?

[ronnieevans40]

OC

We use Sabre Red at work and it carrys over 2 million SHU's. I have had to use it several times on inmates in situations where they are not responding to verbal instructions. These are for the most part are very fit men who are pumped up and ready to rock. So far (knock on wood) it has been very effective in getting the attention of the individual sprayed. It is also important to point out that we are trained to deploy this less than lethal force and in many situations I have had to deal with the effects also. You should get with your mom and find out how she feels. Then after she is ready get her the training to properly deploy the defense system of choice. No self defense is effective if you dont know how to use it.
No defense is better than being prepared, your mom should understand what the threat is and the effect of what she is going to use. Last but not least no defense system will work if it is not used. Not every person can or will use force. Your best bet is training from a qualified individual or group.

 

[conw]

The person who sprayed the Kimber in the video wasn't holding it as outlined in the manual, if that makes any difference to you.

 

[Blues Brother]

all great info. please keep it coming! Thanks!

 

[brent376]

I still would not carry something with two shots one of which only fires 2 feet. The primary charge shoots about 13 feet. The supporting spray shoots 2 feet. It is also rather large and bulky. My owners manual for a Guardian Angel said that it is most effective at distances of 7 feet. If you are 3-6 feet the pattern does not spread out as wide. I also did not like the fact that you cant tell which charge is the primary one. I may be aiming the top nozzle at the eyes of the attacker and the bottom one goes off and hits the chest and chin. I can buy 4 Fox Lab sprays with about 22 shots for the price of 1 kimber product. I have never had a Fox spray leak or depressurize. The solventcarrier used in FOx works much faster than the alcohol carrier in kimbers product.

 

[conw]

The vids I've seen all show both shots shooting 13 feet. What do you mean?

Also, what do you mean "you can't tell which is the primary?" It only has one trigger...they would shoot in the same order regardless, and I'm not even convinced one shot is less potent or powerful.

 

[brent376]

The primary charge or cylinder. There are two of them. If you hold the unit as instructed one nozzle is on the bottom and one is on the top. For example. If you are aiming the top nozzle at the attackers head and you pull the trigger it’s a guess as to which one is going to fire first. If the bottom one fires then you have painted your attackers chest and chin instead of his eyes. Then your second nozzle/cylinder is only going to shoot 2 feet. Now when your adrenaline is pumping your going to grab that unit and jerk the trigger twice. If you are 10 feet away and your first charge misses the target you are screwed. Or if you have more than one assailant you are out of OC. You have to find which product you like best. The kimber product is better than no OC at all. Because of the limited OC capacity, price, large shape, and too many what ifs I am sticking with Fox Labs pepper spray. Also in an adrenaline rushed situation are you going to remember how to perfectly hold this device? It also says in my old manual to not jerk the unit as it can throw your aim off (like a firearm). If kimber offred one nozzle with multiple shots that is easy to aim then I may carry it.

 

[mgregg85]

My little sister carries the guardian angel(she can't CCW yet, she is only 13). I had her try the practice unit and she was able to hit a pie plate with it at about 8 feet with both shots.

I believe it works just fine if you aim it the way you are supposed to(as laid out in the instruction manual).

IF it happens to cause injury to someone within two feet of the unit, so be it. If someone is trying to rape or rob my little sister and they get permanently blinded, I won't be shedding a tear for them. Its a lot harder to try and rape someone else when your blind.

It gets rather cold and windy up here in michigan too and I worry about the pressurized sprays losing pressure or blowing back into my little sister's face.

 

[brent376]

I agree with you. I could care less if it causes injury to the attacker. Thats what he gets. My wife keeps this on her keys and I told her to go for the eyes or throat if someone trys to hurt her. The one she has is made of metal instead of plastic.

http://www.defensedevices.com/wilcatkey.html

If the Guardian Angel (Kimber changed the name it is now called Pepper Protector) works for you then great. It would be very usefull in a cold enviornment or to store in a hot car. Every product has its advantages and disadvantages.

 

[NorestRDS]

brent get rid of that cat . i bought my wife the same one from the same website . bent it a little bit.. snaps riiiiight off. there is one called "black cat" or something like that . Thick ABS plastic and i even sharpened it more for her.

 

[elsullo]

I LOVE defense sprays!

And they have saved my life in real urban combat. HOWEVER, keep in mind that 5-7 percent of the human population, and probably a similar percentage of dogs, are IMMUNE to pepper spray! FACT. I personally had a big dog who loved the taste of lethal chilli pepper curry, no matter how deadly to me---and his subsequent contented farts were even MORE deadly!

Also, all spray units lose effectiveness with age. Buy only the best quality brands that have a "use-by" date on the container. No date? Don't buy.

I do not leave my house without a defense spray in my pocket, but it is a fresh combination unit containing both pepper spray and CS/CN teargas. If the pepper don't get them then the teargas will! For those who carry purses I would recommend a two-ounce model for ease of gripping and handling with certainly.

Bear in mind that "fog" sprays will certainly affect the user somewhat as well as the targeted evildoer. I recommend "stream" sprays, as there will be less blowback to the user. Better yet, Mace brand makes a "PepperFoam" model that shoots a heavy foam spray that sticks and smears, reducing risk to the user, even if it is only pepper.

Speaking of "bear", there are large models of pepper spray called "bear repellant" which have a high-pressure spray that reaches a long distance! If you carry a big purse, why not?.........................elsullo

 

[brent376]

"brent get rid of that cat . i bought my wife the same one from the same website . bent it a little bit.. snaps riiiiight off. there is one called "black cat" or something like that . Thick ABS plastic and i even sharpened it more for her".

The one my wife has is made of 20 gauge steel. I bought it at a gun show in Tulsa. They guy at the booth has a steel company in Oklahoma make them. They come in several colors and have a pig or boston terrior design. Here is the guys website.

www.jacktheknifegarcia.com

He said he can ship them if you ever need to order one. This one is called Back Off Buddy.

 

[conw]

mgregg85 wrote:

I had her try the practice unit and she was able to hit a pie plate with it at about 8 feet with both shots.

Were both charges equal or was one "secondary?"

Nothing against you, brent, it's just that all vids and descriptions I've seen leave this detail out...

Edit: After watching some vids and reading, all sources seem to indicate both "charges" are equal. Could you cite a source saying otherwise? It makes very little sense to me that they wouldn't be. And the only place I've ever heard such is on this thread.

 

[brent376]

Sure. In the Kimber Guardian Angel owners manual it clearly says that the primary charge shoots up to 13 feet and spreads out 12 inches in diameter. The supporting spray has a range of up to 2 feet and spreads out 8 inches in diameter. It even has an illustration showing the primary charge and supporting charge distance. While both cylinders have the same amount of active ingredient the first will shoot 13 feet and the second will shot 2 feet per Kimber Guardian Angel Owners Manual.

 

[conw]

brent,

I think you misinterpreted it. I just called Kimber customer service and Winslow told me (you can call him at 914-964-0771) that both charges are the same, manufactured on the same line, and will have the exact same level of propellant and OC in them.

I don't have my manual any more but I don't ever recall reading anything about "two feet" as the overall distance of anything.

 

[brent376]

I may have read it wrong.

http://www.jetprotector.com/_down/Manual_Guardian_Angel_USA_1.pdf

http://www.jetprotector.com/_down/Manual_Guardian_Angel_USA_2.pdf


Here is an owners manual for the Guardian Angel.

It says " The main jet has a diameter of approx 12 inches at a distance of 13 feet while the supporting spray has a diameter of 8 inches at the minimum safe discharge distance of 12 feet". The Optimal distance is 8 feet.

Maybe I am reading it wrong. Does this mean that at 2 feet it has spead to 8 inches? In the technical section it says the effective distance is 2-13 feet.

 

[conw]

I am too lazy (been doing HW) to find the place I read this, but I suspect that the "supporting spray" means the discharge that comes out after the propellant has been activated and most of the spray has been spent. Apparently there is a main "shot" and then, as the remaining gas slowly discharges, a respectively slower discharge of OC from the same piston.

I might find it later, but I'm pretty sure I got the general details right.

 

[brent376]

Conwict that makes sense to me.

The Kimber Product is better than NO OC at all. It is great that so many gun owners now carry OC spray. I get a little discouraged when I hear someone say "I dont need OC because I have a gun!" Having a gun is only part of a complete plan for protecting yourself against an attack. Being aware of your surrondings, knowing how to disable some with your hands (Eye Gouge Trachea Crush), having your less lethal items (Kubotan & pepper spray), avoiding dangerous situations and knowing how to use a gun are all important.

 

[conw]

I agree totally. I think everyone's needs are different, but the ability to end the confrontation at a distance non-lethally is highly valuable.

I actually find it easier to carry than I imagine I would find a round can. Clipped in a cargo pocket it's concealed and quite fast to deploy. I know you can get smaller devices. In fact, per this thread, I may soon outfit myself with a Spitfire unit...so handy.

 

[brent376]

Spitfire is a good brand. I just switched my Kubotan out with one of theese. I have a similar design except mine is made of steel.

http://www.protectyourselfusa.com/index.cfm

 

[mgregg85]

The main vs supporting spray thing relates to the nozzles on the guardian angel unit. There are two different sizes and thus there is a "main spray" and a "supporting spray" for each of the two shots provided.

 

[conw]

you mean there are different sized holes within each plastic tube that is attached to the propellant/oc...

but the unit is essentially symmetrical (except for the belt clip)?

 

[Loosedhorse]

As regards Kimber Guardian Angel

Please search to find my previous post regarding my personal experience with the Kimber training unit. In summary, it's much less impressive (on a paper target) than a traditional OC fogger or cone spray. (There are MANY previous posts regarding OC sprays for you to peruse by search.)

I would definitely agree that--given an appropriate mindset and ability to train--an older woman might do well to choose a firearm instead of a spray for defense; but we all know not everyone will so choose, and firearms aren't the answer for all persons.

Good luck!