Pepper spray vs. Mace (tear gas)

[Willo]

Hi, I realize Mace is a brand name but I use it here to mean CN tear gas.

I've been hearing recently that OC pepper spray is not as effective as the original mace that was used regularly until OC came on the scene 10-15 years ago. Personally I remember standing around with some friends when I was a teenager and one of the girls pulled out a little keychain with a cylinder on it and said "watch this" and sprayed a little blast on the ground next to us. Within just seconds all our eyes were watering and we felt nauseated and had to actually move from the area.

So recently I got my girlfriend a can of OC and was fiddling with it and sprayed some on the ground and didn't get that same effect. I did it again and some wind blew some of it in my face and for a couple of minutes I had a harder time breathing but there was absolutely no pain involved. No tearing or anything, it just felt like the lining in my throat had swelled. After a minute it went away.

Does anybody have knowledge and/or experience with the differences between these chemicals? Everywhere I look I see OC OC OC but very few CN tear gas mace products. But for me the tear gas was much more stunning and effective. Recommendations? Thx!

 

[1911JMB]

Tear gas often jams, and has a variety of effects depending on who you spray. I won't say that it doesn't work well, but new tazers are CA legal and are far more reliable. But if cost is an issue, or you just plain have your heart set on a pepper spray type device, as far as I know, the thing that determines heat intensity is schovill units, not pepper percentage. I don't have any experience with the differences between spray and gas, so hopefully someone else can fill you in about that.

 

[SRMohawk]

Will,
You've gotta remember that OC sprays come in at least several different concentrations, the ones that are widely available to the public at large being of the weakest. Law enforcement formulas, on the other hand, can be absolutely devastating! Police officers have frequently brought me suspects against whom they've used such chemical weapons (I'm a health care professional) because of the profoundly incapacitating effects thereof (e.g. prolonged blindness, severe optic nerve pain, nausea/vomiting, and even corneal burns).

As for your 'wonderful' CN sprays, they fell out of vogue in no small measure by virtue of the fact that they were potentially as dangerous to the user as they were to those on whom they would be used!

SRM

 

[tellner]

From the best research I've seen Mace is less effective than OC. And OC is a really, REALLY poor bet against someone who really wants to do a crime on you. I know I've been able to fight through the special police-only stuff. And that was an accident when I was taken by surprise.

 

[Coronach]

If you have the option of a Taser (the real deal, not some stun gun thing), I would go with it every time over CS/OC. A motivated perp can work through OC and/or CS. In order to work throught a Tasering, you need to be motivated and somewhat exceptional (or get hit with a poor shot)- the average Joe hit with a Taser seems to want to just curl up and die. The percentage of people who can deal with mace seems much higher.

The best "mace" offerings seem to be a blend of CS (not CN!) and OC, but straight OC is no slouch, either. Fox Labs is some of the most painful stuff on earth.

<---Literally.

Mike

 

[Willo]

cool

thanks for the 'fo (that's short for 'info') .. I'll check out tasers and taser law in CA. Just don't want to spend $100s on a taser when I could use that same money to buy a firearm you know?

I see there are some on the market that are both tear gas and OC.. best of both worlds?

 

[1911JMB]

Willo,

The problem is that you live in the PRK, and can't carry concealed. Thats why we reccomended a tazer.

 

[orangeninja]

Okay first things first.

1.) Don’t get a Tazer until you have been trained with it. Find out if there is anyone in the area that does so. Just like with a gun, you need to be comfortable with its use and limitations. Plus, with most Tazers you get 1 shot.
2.) You may be sued if using OC, CS or a Tazer, but OC and CS have a well documented track record…Tazer is still controversial. So beware the perp with a tax payer funded lawyer.
3.) OC spray (Peppers) is supposed to only affect those who have been hit directly with the spray. The “fumes” per se’ do not knock out the user like Tear Gas can. I strongly recommend the foam because you get a visual of what you hit and the more they try to rub it off the worse it gets and lastly, it sticks and does not blow back into your face.
4.) CS gas or tear gas is a man made irritant using micro “sticker” looking thing-a-majigs (gotta love the tech jargon here) that are designed to irritate the mucus membranes of the body. The problem is, it generally takes several seconds to become effective, usually sensitive collections of mucus membranes (or eyes) must be hit or inhalation must occur. Additionally CS gas can cause respiratory arrest and eventual death in some cases.



Peppers are almost instant, no death or permanent injury is likely to occur. Pepper took effect on me in about 3 seconds; I got hit with the foam 10% and swallowed some accidentally. I was blind, completely, I was nauseas and only water and about 20 minutes would clear it up. I could breathe but it was a little difficult not to panic, especially if you don’t expect it.

CS I could see, but snot and tears were coming out. I couldn’t breath and was very nauseas….a little while in fresh air and a little cool water cleared thing right up. CS took a minute to kick in though, as soon as it hit my lungs the coughing and choking happened.

The pepper was a bit more extreme because of loss of sight, completely.

I wouldn’t want to be hit with either again, but the pepper foam is certainly the better stopper and less likely to cause permanent injury.

 

[Willo]

thanks alduro, for the information. do you by any chance remember if the OC actually "hurt" per se or just caused you to panic because of its effects? Because what I remember most about the tear gas was the stinging pain involved with my eyes tearing and nose running and the fact that only a little squirt 6 feet away could cause that.

I looked into tasers and while CA is very lenient on them I just can't afford one they're like $500 and I bet training and reloads would double that price. Plus they're big mofos.

 

[orangeninja]

OC hurts like a B**ch.....in fact it hurts so bad one of our female officers said she felt like she had been "violated". Her words, not mine, but I find myself agreeing.

BTW...the pain is what causes the panic, that and the blindness.

 

[mec]

Ive been in a closed room with a military cn grenade. Even with a gas mask, I came out of there fast and pretty worthless. I've also been doused and misted with CS and capsicum without much debilitation either to me or to the intended (and often missed ) target. The hand held stun guns are barely irritating at 50,000 volts and just somewhat painful in the 250,000 volt range. The powerful ones will leave little snake bite burns on your skin.

 

[Coronach]

Stun guns are not Tasers. That's like comparing a Red Ryder with a Glock 17. Stun guns generally work on pain alone. Taser gives you pain and is designed to incapacitate major muscle groups. How effective that incapacitation will be depends upon the person and where they were hit, but as long as you solidly drill someone with a functional Taser, they will be doing next to nothing for a solid 5 seconds.

After that point, most people will be very slow to resume hostilities, and you should have used those 5 seconds to get a nice healthy head start. It is worth mentioning, however, that axe murderers and psychopaths and the chemically compromised might very well respond aggressively, so sticking around might not be the best. If the probes are still in, however, you can juice them for another 5 seconds. That might be tough to justify legally, but the capability is there.

OC spray also seems to mostly be a pain response- sure, there is tearing and swelling and breathing difficulties, but someone who is used to OC, tolerant of OC, or just plain PO'ed cn work through it. CS is kinda the same way, with seemingly less pain and a little more incapacitation. Neither one is anywhere close to a 100% stopper, and certainly not an immediate one.

To be fair, Tasers are not 100% either, but they are instantaneous- they either work or they don't, right away.

Mike

 

[Geno]

Worth Noting Medical Counters and Mental Will

Having had the benefit of many assorted medications prior to obtaining my electronic spinal stimulator, I can say that there are medicines that eradicate ANY physical pain without compromising cognition.

When I would practice Taekwondo and various pressure-points with my students, I felt literally NOTHING. Even when my police officer, brother-in-law was spraying his "Mace" and I accidentally walked right through it, I felt NOTHING. I question what effect a "Taser" would have had in such cases. Add to the medicinal equation the fact that I strongly believe in mind-over-matter and it becomes even more questionable its possible effectiveness.

As I see it, anyone who is determined to kill before dying, will likely do so. That is the mentality that most genuine martial arts instructors are trained up with, and the mentality that our CCW instructor insisted that anyone who carries a CCW must have.

Doc2005

 

[Kevlarman]

As I understand it, the advanced TASERs like the 26 watt version do not rely on pain to stop you. Rather, the electrical pulses interfere with the pulses your brain sends to your muscles, overriding them.

It does not matter if you have the "will of the warrior," because without muscle control, you're going down.

For instance, a dopehead on PCP may not feel the 12ga slug ripping through both his legs, but without the lower half of his body, he won't be able to advance on you, no matter how badly he wants to kill you.

Check out the airtaser website and watch the videos of trained police officers get hit with it. They know full well what to expect, and are braced for the impact, yet they can do nothing except scream, fall, and quiver on the ground.

Now how about some OC, then when the guy is blind, apply the TASER?

 

[Willo]

or...

or you could start by hitting him with a couple of 45 slugs, then tase him, then as he's lying there bleeding and quivering you could squirt some pepper spray on him.

wonder if there would be any legal implications regarding that?

 

[Coronach]

As I understand it, the advanced TASERs like the 26 watt version do not rely on pain to stop you. Rather, the electrical pulses interfere with the pulses your brain sends to your muscles, overriding them.

Exactly. It does not matter how inured you are to pain, how determined you are to attack, if your muscles are physically incapable of responding, you'll just stand there and twitch.*

Caveat: Once that 5 second ride is up, a really POed warrior is gonna try to rip out those electrodes, run over, and jam that Taser into a sensitive spot. So you better be ready to pull that trigger again, pronto, or be running away like a rabbit.

Caveat II: This assumes a clean hit. If you miss with one probe, if you're too close and the probes impact right next to one another, if the Taser doesn't function, all bets are off.

*I've heard of one individual who, in a training environment, was hit and decided afterwards that he might be able to draw a gun from a holster after being Tasered. He then proceeded to volunteer to be shot again to test his theory.

I'm not sure how many times he was shot before he did manage to clear leather, nor whether or not he could aim, but it is worth noting that such things are possible, and that Tasers are not replacements for lethal force. Due to the rarity of this occuring, the number of experiences the subject had with the taser, and the fact that it was a controlled environment, I have no idea if this proves anything besides 1. it could happen, however unlikely, on the street and 2. This guy has cojones.

Still, note that he was not running after anyone...he was, IIRC, standing and twitching and taking a good 5 seconds to make his arm and hand shakily pull out a gun. That's not perfect, and the Taser ain't magic, but it's pretty good.

Mike

 

[FilJos]

I use OC professionally (Detention Deputy, i.e. glorified jailor) and I have been sprayed several times for training and have sprayed many people as well. I have never observed the "devestating" effects that some here have posted about. I have never sent someone to the hospital because of horrible effects of the OC and I have never even heard of someone suffering corneal burns or prolonged blindness. It usually just temporarily incapacitates the inmate long enough for me to handcuff them and move them to a more secure part of the facility.

OC is an FDA approved FOOD PRODUCT. You could put it on your tacos or spaghetti if you wanted (and some of us do). It must get into a mucous membrane or other bodily opening, LIKE THE EYES, in order to be effective. Decontamination consists of flushing the eyes with water and then getting plenty of fresh air to further cleanse the eyes. There s littel or no respiratory effect. Some of my co-workers are slightly affected by the OC when it gets into the air, but that is usually after several ounces have been dispersed and the effects are ususally minimal.

CS and CN are the chemical products that will cause severe reactions of a respiratory nature. They also have longer decontamination times and have been known to cause longer lasting effects. These are the products that cause respiratory problems and nausea/vomiting and have the potential for the particulate matter to scratch retinas and cause other eye problems. In particular I believe that CN is rarely used anymore due to the possible dangers. CS is much more common and the most widely used and most effective chemical aerosols are those that combine CS/OC. About 15% of the population is not effected by OC and about 15% is not effected by CS, but by combining the two you can drop the number to maybe 2-3%. One Popular brand is called Freeze +P. It works pretty well too, but is impractical in a closed area due to the use of CS.

 

[JShirley]

Hit

Impact (no force)

Down

Up

Attacking again

I have high pain tolerance, but being taken down had nothing to do with pain.

John

 

[kmrcstintn]

pertaining to the original inquiry

I keep the following around the house:

Sabre brand; Police Magnum product # M-120L; Law Enforcement strength;
CS Military Tear Gas & Oleoresin Capsicum (Red Pepper) combination; concentrations not disclosed on packaging; made by: Security Equipment Corporation, Fenton, MO 63026

I bought it at Gander Mountain for @ $10.00 for a 110 gram size canister; it combines both Red Pepper extract and CS Tear Gas.

Addendum: I visited the company's website and they claim the concentration for the Sabre line is 1% OC and 1% CS and here are links about their Sabre (oc & cs) and Sabre Red (oc) lines of product:

http://www.sabre-sabrered.com/index.htm

http://www.sabre-sabrered.com/faq_index.htm

http://www.sabre-sabrered.com/htmlfol/big_press.htm

http://www.sabre-sabrered.com/htmlfol/big_hplclabs.htm\

http://www.sabre-sabrered.com/htmlfol/Most Potent Defense Spray.pdf

 

[orangeninja]

I have no idea what the track record for the OC/CS mix is. I haven't met anyone hit with it yet.

 

[Willo]

Thanks kmrcstintn, I was looking on ebay and saw some of the Sabre "triple action" stuff that has CS & OC & UV dye. Not a bad price either.

You know, it would be very helpful if somebody here could spray him or herself or a loved one with some of the triple action formula and let us know the results, compared to the results from either one alone.

 

[orangeninja]

I'll volunteer. Send me a check for $5,000 and I'll spray my wife when she isn't expecting it.

Seriously though, if anyone tries this, PLEASE make sure you understand how to properly decontaminate someone. OC is bad, but CS can be deadly.

 

[Car Knocker]

The problem is that you live in the PRK, and can't carry concealed.

Not true. From packing.com: "The most recent records released by the California Department of Justice (2003) indicate that there are a total of 45,120 current CCW permits within the state."

 

[Willo]

couldn't get a CCW anyway... DUI

However, the first time they catcha carrying concealed it's a misdemeanor (if the gun's yours and you're not a gang member), inc. small fine. After that it's a felony.

 

[eastwood44mag]

I carry a blend of both. Never used it yet. Hope to never need it.