Made in China?

[AntiqueCollector]

Global economy my foot. My country comes first, along with true allies (and China ain't one of them). I don't and won't buy into globalism, the global economy, etc. It's destroying us, and by the time more wake up to the fact, it'll be too late to do anything about it.

As for the higher cost of U.S. made stuff, keep in mind the following reasons: inflation (the dollar is a lot less valuable than it used to be, so, while a price may seem "high", in reality, if you take into account the value of the dollar, it's not really), the Chinese currency is artificially low, and, the quality of Chinese stuff is generally low. I collect antiques (see my username) and just comparing older American tools, furniture, etc., to the new Chinese stuff, will show you a lot about what I'm saying here. The differences in quality are shocking, but, people think they have "more" these days than people used to, because the individual items are junk and cheaply made. I'd rather have fewer high quality items, be they firearms or tools or furniture, than a couple houses worth of trash. And like one other poster mentioned, enjoy your Chinese toothpaste...

 

[Vonderek]

I would not buy anything if possible from China. I will walk in battered athletic shoes until I can find the rare pair imported from anywhere besides China. Sure, all the cheap crap China floods us with has overall raised our standard of living (Where else on the planet but the U.S. can you find poverty-level folks with HD TVs in their living rooms?), but at what eventual cost? China is selling us the rope to hang ourselves.

 

[Prince Yamato]

the quality of Chinese stuff is generally low.

That's an old stereotype. Just like the quality of Korean products was low in the 1980s and now they're considered equal to their Japanese counterparts. Also, quality of Chinese firearms was never low. Also, what does "buying American" mean anyhow? Do you buy Ford? Those are made in Ontario, Canada. Chevrolet? Made in Mexico. Hyundai? Made in Alabama.

 

[RNB65]

It also drives me nuts how we have conveniently forgotten that they are still COMMUNIST CHINA.

I'm just curious how you think this differs from any other period in Chinese history? For most of the past 5000 years, China has had a repressive, centralized/dictatorship government with a society largely closed to outsiders. Regardless of which label you hang on it (dynastic, communist, socialist, marxist), Mao Zedong and company didn't bring anything to the table that hadn't already existed for several millennia.

 

[Princi]

A rant and I've been there.

As I write this, I'm in Bangalore, India on my 3rd trip this year. Last year I spent a considerable amount of time in Shanghai, and Xi'an China. There were also side trips to Beijing,...

One thing China will never export is humor. Years of living under Communist rule didn't give them much to smile about, and in spite of the booming economy of today, you still don't see much smiling.

What you will see is a lot of really hard working people. Ask one of your Chinese staff to do something and it will get done, and on time. Not so good here in India. If an Indian things the task is beneath them, they will try to get someone else to do it, or it just won't get done period.

The biggest problem I had in China was with English. Although I might have a word or two that I don't understand spoken in Indian English, Chinese English - well that is something else.

Another thing about the Chinese is: try to give them a tip. They will fight you like cats and dogs. I had the company driver take me to the airport a couple of times, which was overtime for him. I tried to give him money, and it was always a fight. The same thing was true with our cook.

Ever have a taxi-cab driver take you for a ride in New York, or any of our major cities? That won't happen in Shanghai.

There is also a lot of pride in workmanship by the Chinese worker. Our apartment there was flawless. You should see our apartment here in Bangalore. Light fixtures that are crooked. Wall plates that don't fit right... I could go on and on. This isn't a cheap apartment either: it is costing the company $6400/month, well that was when there were 44 rupees to a dollar, now there are only 40 so the cost of the apartment has gone up.

What I do like is the religious freedom in this part of India. You don't see that in China. They have a few established churches, but no real freedom of worship.

Communism is socialism +P+. If you take a look at the Democratic parties platform, you will see it going further and further to the left towards socialism, which eventually becomes communism.

If you look at how the "Communist Govenment" in China works with its industries you will see a big difference between doing business in China and trying to do business in the U.S. with all the government controls, cost of litigation, fear of product liability suits...

Yes China has its share of problems too - big problems. There were only a few days out of the year that I saw women walking around carrying umbrellas to shade them from the sun. There isn't much sunlight because of all the polution.

Would you buy something made in New York City? Why did everything in NYC always cost more? It was because of the necessary pay-backs to the mobs. Hopefully, most of that is gone, but I have my doubts.

Yes, I'd buy products made in China because the guy making it was just as human as the guy walking down the street in Dallas carrying the boom-box; if, and this is the big one, the quality/value was there.

My formula for making the United States a great country again: close the law schools.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

I avoid buying any products made in China. I will often select the high quality products imported from Taiwan. I hope if the moment arrives we won't fail our ally's trust and let them be swallowed whole by the monster.

I regard with special scorn any U.S. operation that moves production there when they were still turning a solid buck employing U.S. citizens. The little I've heard about the conditions of factory workers there is heart wrenching also. This is why I won't be buying any more Daisy airguns or Radio Flyer wagons for my kids.


The debt we have accrued will come due payable to China someday--just how will we be paying?

They are still communists regardless of the mask they wear.

 

[MikeH]

I avoid buying any products made in China. I will often select the high quality products imported from Taiwan. I hope if the moment arrives we won't fail our ally's trust and let them be swallowed whole by the monster.

I'm from Taiwan, and I appreciate your support for my homeland. However, Taiwan's manufacturing industry is moving westward into China as we speak. A significant amount of consumer goods exported in China are actually made by factories with Taiwanese and other foreign capital. Even in Taiwan, it is getting harder and harder to resist Chinese goods.

 

[jkingrph]

Global economy my foot. My country comes first, along with true allies (and China ain't one of them). I don't and won't buy into globalism, the global economy, etc. It's destroying us, and by the time more wake up to the fact, it'll be too late to do anything about it. As for the higher cost of U.S. made stuff, keep in mind the following reasons: inflation (the dollar is a lot less valuable than it used to be, so, while a price may seem "high", in reality, if you take into account the value of the dollar, it's not really), the Chinese currency is artificially low, and, the quality of Chinese stuff is generally low. I collect antiques (see my username) and just comparing older American tools, furniture, etc., to the new Chinese stuff, will show you a lot about what I'm saying here. The differences in quality are shocking, but, people think they have "more" these days than people used to, because the individual items are junk and cheaply made. I'd rather have fewer high quality items, be they firearms or tools or furniture, than a couple houses worth of trash. And like one other poster mentioned, enjoy your Chinese toothpaste...

__________________
I'm not a collectlor, but a user of fine tools( not enough, but enough to know what I'm doing) and will take an old Stanley or Greenlee or a new Sorby from England over the Chinese imports any day. Lee Neilson(sp) up in Maine is also making some fine chisels and hand planes, but be advised on the good antiques with a lot of life left in them, or new tools of quality, you shall pay probably 10 times the price of the chinese. You gets what you pay for though.

 

[salthouse]

There is a lot of hipocrisy in saying I won't buy this or that from x or y (I'm guilty of it too). We all buy our gas from companies that have made fortunes using imports from Iran and Venezuela. Chinese toothpaste can be just as much of a problem as chili made in Georgia. Like it or not, we are all part of global economy that is the result of the world being a much smaller place than it was 20, 30, 50 years ago. To me its a value question. If I can get the quality I need for a price that I want, I'm probably going to buy it. Buying a table made in China instead of NC because its cheap and my 3 yr old is only going to beat the crap out of it anyway, seems like a good deal to me. Just like paying 2X for a tool made in the US because its better and I don't want to have to buy another one also seems like a good deal.

 

[MikeH]

Recently, there has been talks about how the US stock market will take a long-term dive as baby boomers retire and cash in their investments. There is just no way that post-boomer generations like myself can buy enough to keep the prices up.

One possibility being looked into right now is to help the Chinese set up their version of 401k and open up US securities to them. This way, some of the money will come back, and boomers don't have to worry about a 30% drop or more in the value of their retirement funds. Of course, such a win-win solution will be impossible if isolationism is in effect.

 

[Cosmoline]

If a company in New York could manufacture their product much more cheaply in Nebraska, would you claim that they are showing lack of pride in New York to move their manufacturing to Nebraska?

If the New York company was a subsidiary of a brutal communist government that ensured lower prices through a system of forced labor, yes I would suggest such a move showed lack of pride. I would suggest such a move showed a complete lack of an moral fiber at all.

Chinese set up their version of 401k and open up US securities to them.

Why don't we just sell them some states while we're at it. The Chinese already own a huge chunk of the nation's debt. That means we're their you-know-what. Future generations will look back and wonder how we could have been so incredibly naive and stupid.

I'm just curious how you think this differs from any other period in Chinese history? For most of the past 5000 years, China has had a repressive, centralized/dictatorship government with a society largely closed to outsiders.

Oh, it doesn't. And if you'll read further in the history books, you'll see how Chinese governments in the modern era tend to end badly. We've bought into a great bubble. We're banking trillions of dollars on the notion that China will calmly evolve into a western style economy with rule of law and sound fundamentals. If instead the whole thing collapses in chaos and war as it always has in the past, our economy and that of the western world will face collapse along with it. The price of goods will shoot up as new factories have to be found. Investments will vanish along with all the money people have poured into them. Combine that with ripple effects setting off chaos in places such as Nigeria, Venezuela or SA (it only takes one of those) and you have gasoline at ten dollars a gallon.

just comparing older American tools, furniture, etc., to the new Chinese stuff, will show you a lot about what I'm saying here.

Yup. I have a Smith-Corona typewriter made in the USA back in the 30's sitting on my desk. It's so well made it qualifies as a work of art, with hundreds of perfectly engineered and fitted moving parts. The whole thing is encased in a glossy maroon steel surface. Each key is a carefully made ceramic. It's not just an old technology, it represents a commitment to quality we have completely lost. Like the remnants of the Roman empire entering the dark ages, we cannot make things we used to make. We literally don't know how.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

I would buy from whatever american gunmaker was left. Don't get me wrong I like HK's and sig's and other quality european firearms, but i try to buy from american companies whenever possible.

 

[Oleg Volk]

China is investing abroad when return on investment improves on domestic options. We should be happy that US attracts some of that investment. Likewise, we invest in China when ROI is better there.

If US can go from net creditor to debtor, China can also. Also, "owning" parts of US isn't always good for the owner. Witness the Japanese ownership of US real state which left them holding overvalued properties.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Yup. I have a Smith-Corona typewriter made in the USA back in the 30's sitting on my desk. It's so well made it qualifies as a work of art, with hundreds of perfectly engineered and fitted moving parts. The whole thing is encased in a glossy maroon steel surface. Each key is a carefully made ceramic. It's not just an old technology, it represents a commitment to quality we have completely lost

I honestly think everything went to hell in the 1960s. In the 1950s, you couldn't beat american automobiles. Best in the world, built like tanks. American guns, were well made also. Unfortunately, that is not the case today. I also think prices are over-inflated. No way in hell any AR is worth more than $500... half of the gun is plastic. I think the best example of a rip off is US made AK parts vs. foreign made ones. Tapco Pistol grip, $9.99. Chinese grip $0.99. how can you justify a 1000% increase in price? Answer: you can't. I love my country, but I'll be damned if I pay its citizens, when they're ripping me off. It's pretty sad when the "oppressive communist regime" can give me a better value than my own countrymen. Oh, and on top of that, the US gov't passes a law (the imported parts req.) that basically FORCES me to pay the higher prices for compliance! What happened to consumer choice? I shouldn't have to pay higher prices for the same good!

I would buy from whatever american gunmaker was left. Don't get me wrong I like HK's and sig's and other quality european firearms, but i try to buy from american companies whenever possible.

Like Springfield 1911s? Whose frames are made in Brazil. Or Springfield XDs? Which are Croatian guns? S&W? Half of their guns are made under license by Walther (P99 and PPK). Winchester? Which I think is now owned in part by a Chinese company anyway.

Sometimes, better products just come from foreign countries.

 

[Daemon688]

Heh, I would have to argue that the only reasons why American automobiles were top of the heap in the 50's and 60's was because the Germans and Japanese were still trying to rebuild after the war. The whole idea that foreign products will lead to the destruction of the country isn't unique to us. I recommend everyone here to read a book called "Seducing the French" written by Richard Kuisel. Seems the French held many of the same sentiments as people on this board do when American products and businesses "invaded" France.

In the mean time, I'll be eating my Chilean fruit in the winter, listening to my Chinese made mp3 player with Korean battery, shooting my German framed Sig with American slide, and driving my Polish powered, German transmissioned, assembled in Brazil Volkswagen.

Another little tidbit: I read recently in a NYT article that approx 50% of all the apple juice in the US comes from China.

 

[Oleg Volk]

That Smith-Corona typewriter also cost more, in proportion to salaries, than a laptop computer costs today.

 

[Cosmoline]

better products just come from foreign countries.

Actually, better products come from our grandparents. My carry piece is a Detective Special made a generation ago in the 50's. Snub nose and age, it can still thread needles at the range.

That Smith-Corona typewriter also cost more, in proportion to salaries, than a laptop computer costs today.

How many laptops will still be going strong SEVENTY years after being built? How many will still be going strong just five years from now? We live in an age of shoddy.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Cosmoline--May G-d bless and keep your manual typewriter. I have three--including my Dad's massive Underwood. I looked up what they sell for today--just a few bucks----the market is relatively flooded with over-built indestructable typewriters.

Mike H--I just got a sweet little pocket knife as a gift--a Carson Design M1612Z--made in Taiwan. The quality and tollerances on the thing are unbelievable. Regarding what you said about Taiwan moving manufacturing to China, it's the same cause and effect as here in the U.S. I'm sure.

My handle to the contrary, I'm not in favor of shouting to the sky that America should try to re-live the glory days of heavy industry---I just don't want to see the things we clearly do well run away in search ever-cheaper labor and non-regulated pollution. If it costs an extra buck or two so that I wouldn't be ashamed of myself for my tacit endorsement of the conditions the person who made it works under and lives in I'm OK with that.

 

[cracked butt]

I looked at coach guns at dunhams last week.
They had a Stoeger and a chinese model.

The chinese model was poorly fitted, had a crack in its plastic stock which looks like it was from being forced onto a receiver that didn't fit it well, and one of the muzzles was a sort of oblong 'D' shape.

It was $100 cheaper than the Stoeger, but not a $100 that I'd be willing to save.

Guns made by the chinese goobermint I would buy though.

 

[Gewehr98]

All these people who swear they'll never buy Chinese stuff...

would poop themselves if they ever looked inside the computer cases they're using to post such nonsense here at THR with.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Or look and see where the garlic powder in the kitchen came from (go ahead--look--surprise!).

 

[Hardtarget]

Don't kid yourself. China has NO respect for patent rights. They probably are already making them...just not exporting...yet.

Mark.

 

[illinoisdeerhunter]

History does repeat itself---read on

No country has ever been as great or pure as ours or richer in good citizens and deeds; none has been free for so long from the vices of avarice and luxury; nowhere have thrift and plain living been for so long held in such high esteem. Poverty with us went hand in hand with contentment. Lately wealth has made us greedy and self-indulgence has brought us through every form of sensual excess too be in love with death both individual and collective.
Titus Livius b. 59 b.c. (referring to the Roman empire)
IDH b. 1963 a.d. (referring to the U.S.A.)

It'll happen to Chiina too. It might take a generation or two but, it'll happen.

 

[illinoisdeerhunter]

history does repeat it self...

read my signature...

It'll happen to China too. It might take a generation or two but, it'll happen

 

[Prince Yamato]

better products just come from foreign countries.

You left out my qualifier...

Sometimes, better products just come from foreign countries.

Not always, but sometimes. And it's nice that you have a revolver from your grandfather, but I don't. I have to buy newer guns, which tend to cost more if they're American made. Again, I love my country, it just angers me that its citizens try to rip me off.