Magnum Muzzleloading Rifles?

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Sound's to me like TC or somebody is getting mad because CVA is selling a lot of rifles, and some damn fine rifles on top of that. Ragging a hole at 100 yards is no big feat for a good inline and that's a fact. Might be a big feat for the shooter, but not for some of those inlines out there. Just go ahead and scope up with a good Shepherd's or Gold Ring Leopold and have at it....

 

[whosyrdaddy]

Mykeal, no apology necessary. I post info here with the full expectation that it will be poked, prodded, picked apart, and otherwise debunked. That's why I post it. I value and appreciate the opinions of everyone on this board, that's how I learn. While I do own several fine T/C products, I don't participate in their cult following. In fact, I believe that my CVA Optima could hold it's own against any of T/C's current offerings.

In the event that this post is read by any T/C officials, please know that reputations cannot be bought, they must be earned. As far as I'm concerned,
your great reputation left with the previous owners and you are starting back at square 1 with me. Good luck.

 

[DuncanSA]

To sum things up, I get the impression that within limits an overloaded ML will simply blow the excess charge out of the muzzle, to either ignite beyond it or fall to the ground. On the other hand, a really heavily charged weapon (in which the speed of ignition exceeds the rate of expulsion) can result in unfortunate consequences.

At the far end of the scale, I would not want to be around when for instance a 36" barrel, fully stuffed with BP, even without a ball, is fired!

Common sense is surely the guideline here.

 

[Timthinker]

I am glad this thread took a detour into the realms of safety. Yes, a muzzleloader can be overcharged with dangerous-and sometimes tragic-results. This point can not be overstressed. That said, I tend to agree with those who see the term magnum as more of a marketing ploy.

If memory serves me correctly, early Walker Colts suffered from this problem. That is why Colt reduced both the cylinder length and barrel length on the subsequent Dragoon models to avoid such problems. I thought this historical footnote would be appropriate here.


Timthinker

 

[Griz Adams]

Was doing some internet research and this thread popped up.

I want to mention the differences of real black powder, pyrodex, and triple7.

First, they ALL need to be measured by volume. They are "volume equivalent"

Second, Pellets are NOT the same as loose powder. Loose powder has more energy and produces higher pressure then the same grs of pellets.

Third, Triple7 is hotter then bp or pyrodex so you need to cut your load about 10%.

"Magnum" muzzle loaders suggest 150gr of pyrodex pellets (3 50gr pellets)
DO NOT load 150gr loose pyrodex, too much pressure.
DO NOT, and I will repeat, DO NOT NEVER DON'T EVEN THINK of loading 150gr loose triple7.

about 3 years ago I was the shop manager at a "Warehouse" catering to "Sportsman" and was called out to help a customer with some muzzle loader questions. He had in his hand a good quality U.S. made 50 cal "magnum" and he wanted to load a 405gr powerpoint with 150 gr loose triple7. I spent 45min explaining that 3 pyrodex pellets were not the same as 150gr loose triple7.:banghead: He walked off mad at me and complained to my manager. Then he and his buddy bought their stuff and drove up the highway about 10 miles to the range.

2 hours later his buddy came back into the store with blood on his shirt. He stopped by to let me know his friend was at the hospital about a mile away with a breach plug through his upper cheek and bone shards in his brain and then he just walked away dazed. That was the last I every heard about it. I never saw either of them again.

Know what you are putting in your gun. Always start at the suggested low amount. There are not any real "high pressure signs" like flat primers, hard extraction, primers falling out in a muzzle loader. And an inline you don't even get the hammer that could blow back to half cock with a hot load. Start low and work up for accuracy and then stay their. 100 more fps is not worth it.

Griz Adams
Gunsmith; AAS YCC

 

[Wildfire]

Thank You.

hey there:
Thank you to Griz......
This is what I was trying to get said. Some of the new guns have 90 Degree in and out breach plugs. What if one was on the edge of not all the way in and 150 grain load sends it back through the frame.?????
I do not know any one that has been hurt yet. But I do know that this can happen with BP. The "Myth" that one can not over load BP. Is just that/ A Myth. The heavier the bullet the higher the PSI....
777 is an alternative, and not a direct replacement. It is hotter.
But any over charge is an over charge. Burning powder falling on the ground is one thing. And who knows how many times you will get away with it.
Best to read and follow the loading rules. Magnums ????? .300 Win. Mag. ?
Yep , made to do what it does... The Modern ML ???? Selling point only and sooner or latter this will prove it self. Thanks for sharing the story Griz.

 

[whosyrdaddy]

helpful hints

Griz, It would be very helpful to some of our inquiring minds if you would drop a few hints about which

good quality U.S. made 50 cal

was involved. With a few good clues we may even be able to locate some more details about the incident as firearm related injuries tend to be well tracked by the powers that be.

 

[scrat]

I dont think the Brand really matters as some 50 cal muzzleloaders are actually put together with parts made in Spain. With that said the MORAL of the story is not on who the maker was but on the cautions of loading a BP muzzleloader to 150 grains of 777.

 

[whosyrdaddy]

It matters to me. It may matter to others that read this thread. But thank you for designating yourself as the moral compass of THR. Next time I inquire about something, I'll be sure to put in a note about how Scrat might not want to know the answer, so we best keep it a secret.

 

[scrat]

Well that being said i guess its important to know that not all 50 cal inline muzzle loaders are made here in the U.S. Some manufactures use parts that were made in foreign countries such as spain.

 

[whistler]

wrong button

 

[whistler]

griz adams

First, they ALL need to be measured by volume.They are "volume equivalent".

just what do you think "volume equivalent" means and why do all the bp subs list volume and wieght measures

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

CVA HunterBolt. My normal load is 84 grains of Triple Seven [3fff]..(.45)
Have fired a 110 grain load of same powder 6 times..
CVA Kodiak..same powder type and load..(.45)
Have fired a 110 grain load 9 times, maybe 10 times..
Traditions Evolution..same powder type and load..(.45)
Have fired a 110 grain load 22 times....
All sabot rounds, mostly 180's but a fair amount of 250's....
ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS....
As far as accuracy goes, well, I may be retired and getting older and have a bad foot that discourage's me from walking back and forth to the target any more than I have to, but that Shepherd's Sniper Scope don't lie. My rifles shoot good and they carry on out there, at least from the prone position.
I'vd owned a couple of Knight inlines to, .50 caliber, years and years ago. They were fine rifles but I don't care for the .50 so I got rid of them....

 

[alsaqr]

All kinds of stuff has ben written about CVA guns. Yep, the Apollo had a distracting habit of blowing up.

Despite extensive research, I have not been able to find a photo of a newer CVA inline rifle that has blown up using black powder or a blackpowder substitute. One photo that I have found is of a Savage muzzleloader that was apparently blown intentionally. There is a well known "expert" who has claimed that CVA guns blow up all over the place. He has thrown in with a Tulsa, OK ambulance chaser in some lawsuits against CVA.

IMO most blown up blackpowder guns are blown up with smokeless powder by folks who do not read and by others who are chasing the dragon. One photo in my possession is of a conventional muzzleloader that blew under the influence of IMR 3031. "Blown up" is probably a wrong term for what happened with that gun: The barrel blew out in the tenon dovetail. About a one-quarter inch hole.

 

[Rachen]

Good comment about the front stuffers burning powder 30 yards downrange. This effect is even more dramatic at night.

When you have a "magnum" muzzleloader and every time you fire it it is like Chinese New Years on Wahai Road, Shanghai, there is definitely a problem with the gun being able to handle said powder load.

To me, "magnum" is nothing more than a marketing term, much less a technical term. I have seen flashlights being called magnums, pistol and rifle cartridges being called magnums, even a Dodge automobile being called a magnum. On Cabelas, they have many nautical outboard motors referred to as "magnum".

What is the similarity here? There is one, the one being the bigger, badder, and meaner machine. That is a trend with all folks. Don't everybody love the thing that is the biggest, baddest, and meanest? Yes we do.

Now look at Buffalo Bore Ammunition. Their .44 Magnum cartridge produces app. 866 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. Their .45 LC produces app. 1000 ft. lb. of muzzle energy! Of course, their .45 LC loads are super charged and meant for use in only certain firearms, such as Rugers, but still, see the difference here? What is magnum might not seem so when compared to more conventional namings.

What is "magnum" or not, is only in the eye of the beholder. Nobody can say who is right and who is wrong when dealing with this particular terminology. It is everybody's own opinion regarding what is "magnum" or not.

 

[Pancho]

I bought a Harrington-Richardson Springfield Stalker in 58 cal. Mainly to hear the comments from the rest of the guys. Everyone wanted to shoot it. The charge was 100gr.BP and a R.E.A.L maxie ball about 455 gr. The gun is light and it will hurt you. I did get two does that day and everyone knew who shot.

 

[Misfire99]

I haven't read every post on this thread but I think it should be kept in mind that a Magnum is a large bottle of Champagne. To use it other wise has always been a marketing ploy. I mean does anybody really believe that there is such a thing as a 22 magnum? It's just a large 22. 357 magnum? It's just a large 38. 44 magnum? Just a large 44 special. But hey it works so well to sell guns lets use it when ever we can. You know those gun nut will buy anything that has magnum it the name.

One time in my past I was in a Pharmacy buying "Protection." I asked the young lady behind the counter "where is the extra large." She then came over to help me look for the extra large. Now that's a magnum.

 

[mykeal]

Ok, I get it about magnum and 'extra large'. Does misfire come from the same area?

 

[Misfire99]

MyKeal wrote:
Ok, I get it about magnum and 'extra large'. Does misfire come from the same area?

I'm not clear on this. Are you trying to insult me or just jealous?

 

[mykeal]

Just wondering if you were exercising a sense of humor or braggadocio.

 

[azwizard]

Magnum may just be another name for more power

My take on the whole Magnum thing is, that it is a more powerful loading than is available in a standard issue weapon.. The .357 and .44 Magnums were intentionally loaded into longer cases to prevent them from being fired in older guns that may not have had the metalugical strenght to withstand the higher pressure within the chambers whether that be caused by newer/hotter powders or just increased volumes of the same old powder.

In the case of ML firearms there are definate differences between powders/ignition systems and type of locks.

Case in point I have shot my T/C Hawken .50 cal for over 30 years with just plain old Black powder.
.490 RB over 100 Gr. Black
Buffalo Bullets over 80 Gr. Of Black.

I wanted to try and extend my range a little more, so I purchaced a Green Mountain BBL withthe faster rate twist rifling so I could shoot saboted bullets. Started with 90 Gr. of black and a 300 Gr. Nosler partion bullet with good results. Still searching for more umphf, I switched to 777 powder with the same bullet and the new Remington caps.

That proved to be the ticket for my gun, great accuracy beyond 100 yards and seeminly more deceisive knock down power on Deer.

Also, dabbled with a 12 Ga BP shotgun that I finally ironed out a load for turkeys that seemed to work just fine. I may go back and try and refine that loading a little with one of the more modern powders like 777 or Buckhorn 209.

What was prevalent thru all of these Loads and Guns was that they exibited a like power level of recoil. I.E. a slower less sharp power curve, More of a slow building whoosh?

Alas I was still searching for a more powerful solution should I be lucky enough to draw an Elk tag. Enter the Knight Disc Extreme in .52 with the power stem.. Most all research led to the Elk/Moose loading of 150 Gr. of FF 777 loose powder with the barnes .475 cal 375 gr. saboted bullet. Accuracy has been outstanding out to and beyond 200 yards with Oh my God power. Touched off the first round and all I could say was WOW!!!!! Wow continued for about 10 minutes as I waited for feeling to return to my shoulder.

The recoil and bark of this new weapon in my book certainly would qualifiy it as having moved into the Magnum territory as far as ML firearms are concerened. I love it, but will continue to shoot it conservativly or invest in a new pact recoil vest! Lol.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, I know one thing. I know that for a good inline loaded up with Triple Seven [3fff] and a good sabot, ragging a hole consistently at 100 yards and well beyond ain't s***. I have definitely proven that to myself even if I don't have the mean's to prove it to other people. (I can't do it with every single shot. I'm getting older and I have smoked all of my life and I drink a lot of coffee, but when I miss by maybe half an inch or so it's me and not the rifle) Not that I'd probably do it anyway. They shoot their guns, I shoot my guns.
I love CVA, but my very favorite rifle is the Traditions Evolution. Partially fluted barrel, Magna Ported, perfect balance, and just like the HunterBolt and the Kodiak it has tack driving accuracy way on down the line. Those inline's give me the best of both worlds.
Just like my signature said when I was on THR as ".44WalkerSabot" before Mr. Shawnee was kind and generous enough to supply me with my present name::: "If the ball is not hitting the target then perhaps someone need's to check the shooter instead of the gun, hmmm"?....

 

[Wildfire]

You got it.

Hey There:
Gent of coal, You got the point on this one. Most guns will shoot just fine.
My son used a Traditions "Evil" rifle for a few years and it was a hole ragger.
The only reason we don't still have it is, I gave a young boy (14) my old T/C side lock (Cause his Dad is in Missions work and could not afford a gun). well My son got a big heart and could not stand the idea of his Dad not being able to hunt with him and have a gun too. So! He gave up his Traditions rifle.
Felt good. Next thing ya know , he has no gun . I broke down and bought him a New Encore. Back to the point.... There are many rifles out there that shoot well or could. The right load and the right finger on the trigger and most will do rather well. You made a good point ...

 

[Misfire99]

mykeal wrote: Just wondering if you were exercising a sense of humor or braggadocio.

Don't you know that "protection" doesn't come in extra large. It only has one size. And the term magnum means an extra large bottle of Champagne like the ones they use in the winners circle after a race. I thought it evident that it was a joke.

But then again I guess you also don't know that every condom has a serial number because you haven't had to roll them down that far.

That's also a joke.

But then again those things are awfully tight. Will not use them because of that.