Combat-wombat
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Yeah, but the mags are made by Magpul. See http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=247242&highlight=magpul
Magpul Rifle
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Nightcrawler
Member
I understand that.
You'd just think that Magpul's new polymer mag would have a Magpul floorplate, is all.
You'd just think that Magpul's new polymer mag would have a Magpul floorplate, is all.
Wes Janson
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Handled the Masada today. Wasn't particularly impressed...largely because the salesman was acting rather protective towards it, and asked that it not be cycled or dry-fired. Considering that of all the firearms handled at the entire show, not a single other vendor ever said "This model isn't safe to cycle at the moment", that kinda stuck out at me. Yeah, maybe if it winds up doing everything they claim, and can group a quarter of an inch at two thousand yards. Overall I couldn't get past the feel that I was just simply handling a gas-piston AR with funky plastic stuck all over, with grip tape plastered onto the plastic. Time will tell, maybe this thing will be revolutionary and wind up as the new service rifle..but I'm not holding my breath.
Stiletto Null
Member
I am all over the SPR configuration.
But it would need a better grip.
But it would need a better grip.
BrennanKG
Member
I look forward to seeing and hearing more about the Masada.
Magpul makes good kit, I imagine their foray into firearms manufacture will bear this out.
B.
Magpul makes good kit, I imagine their foray into firearms manufacture will bear this out.
B.
Cthulhu
Member
If the final rifle actually follows the design of the cutaway they've published, it should be an excellent rifle. There is simply no way to configure an AR with the combination of features offered at a comparable price. (BTW, the reps said the price should be $1600, not $1400.)
Gas Piston Operation, Quick Change Barrel, and the folding collapsible stock with constant cheek weld are the really "big deal" features. As an gas piston AR owner, the is no way I'd go back to a DI AR for anything other than a plinker/target rifle.
It doesn't eliminate all of the ARs problems though. Using AR barrels means it uses the AR 8 Lug bolt, which is prone to chipping/fouling. The AR Bolt likely means means AR ejector and extractor. The AR trigger system has a lot of springs, is sensitive to spring weight, and prone to pin wear. These are not really insurmountable, and should at the very least be no more of a problem than with current ARs.
If Magpul can get this thing built before FN gets the SCAR to market, it could be very big indeed.
Gas Piston Operation, Quick Change Barrel, and the folding collapsible stock with constant cheek weld are the really "big deal" features. As an gas piston AR owner, the is no way I'd go back to a DI AR for anything other than a plinker/target rifle.
It doesn't eliminate all of the ARs problems though. Using AR barrels means it uses the AR 8 Lug bolt, which is prone to chipping/fouling. The AR Bolt likely means means AR ejector and extractor. The AR trigger system has a lot of springs, is sensitive to spring weight, and prone to pin wear. These are not really insurmountable, and should at the very least be no more of a problem than with current ARs.
If Magpul can get this thing built before FN gets the SCAR to market, it could be very big indeed.
So, I wonder why Magpul stuck with the AR-specific features that it did? Was it for parts commonality. ease of design/manufacture, or because of the advantages inherent in that system (tight lock up, good accuracy)?
Not being a BTDT kind of guy (I watch the war- any war- from Camp Couch with Col. Sanders), I confess to being startled that they kept the bolt design, but I'm not sure how much of a "problem" that is in real-world use. Since my AR has never had a problem in the grueling, arid, sandy environment that is my gun range (note to the humor impaired, I live in Ohio), I think the Masada would be fine for my use. But, if they really are trying to build a better mouse gun, I wonder if that was the way to go?
Mike
Not being a BTDT kind of guy (I watch the war- any war- from Camp Couch with Col. Sanders), I confess to being startled that they kept the bolt design, but I'm not sure how much of a "problem" that is in real-world use. Since my AR has never had a problem in the grueling, arid, sandy environment that is my gun range (note to the humor impaired, I live in Ohio), I think the Masada would be fine for my use. But, if they really are trying to build a better mouse gun, I wonder if that was the way to go?
Mike
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
The breakage problem is only partially a design of the bolt. The square corners where the lugs meet the bolt body is bad from an engineering standpoint. Also the undercut lugs to either side of the extractor weaken the design as well. However it seems to me like the real problem is that when you shorten the gas system, you dramatically increase the forces working on the bolt. A bolt in a 14.5" M4 has 50% higher operating pressures than a bolt in a 20" M16A2. If you take a part designed for one operating pressure and then increase the amount of stress by half, you should expect to see some issues.
However, one consistent thing about a gas piston system is that the stress on the bolt remains about the same regardless of the barrel length. There is also less fouling with a gas piston system. So as long as the stress on the bolt in the Masada is about the same as the stress on a 20" M16 bolt, I don't think you'll see the same issues as you see with the M4 (even in the shorty versions of the rifle).
As for why use AR parts, I know that I am a lot more likely to buy a new $1600 rifle when I know that most of my current supply of parts will work in it. All my spare bolts and barrels can be put to use.
Zak Smith
Member
My guess would be that those lengths match the ones currently in use by US forces (besides the 20" M16)-- SPR, M4, Mk18/CQBR.
Langenator
Member
I don't think it uses the same bolt, just the same bolt head to properly mate with the locking recesses of the AR barrel.
If you look at the cutaway in #46, the back end of the bolt is quite different.
As far as comparison with the XCR, I see fodder for many a gunrag article in a couple of years. And by that time we'll also hopefully have some Two Way Range feedback on the SCAR as well.
I do like the adjustable stock on the Masada and SCAR better than the fixed on the XCR, personally, simply because I'm 6'2" and my wife is a foot shorter. With an adjustable stock, we can shoot the same rifle.
If you look at the cutaway in #46, the back end of the bolt is quite different.
As far as comparison with the XCR, I see fodder for many a gunrag article in a couple of years. And by that time we'll also hopefully have some Two Way Range feedback on the SCAR as well.
I do like the adjustable stock on the Masada and SCAR better than the fixed on the XCR, personally, simply because I'm 6'2" and my wife is a foot shorter. With an adjustable stock, we can shoot the same rifle.
I spent a long time in the Magpull booth.
Wes, the one they didn't want you cycling was one of the ones where some of the plastic on it was prototyping stuff, and not the hard stuff. The others you could beat on pretty well.
Okay, here are my initial impressions. I like it so far. It feels good. Looks good. And has some neat features.
The trigger parts are basically AR parts, except for the auto sear. It will be proprietary.
The barrel is a standard AR barrel. Any AR barrel will work. The piston system attaches where the gas block would normally attach. So far they have pistons in mid length and rifle length versions (as far as where they would attach at the ports). They will be working on a carbine, and super shorty version.
The quick detach barrel is the best idea I've seen. You pull the handguard off (one captive pin) then you pull down a small handle which allows you to ratchet an interuppted thread locking collar to one side. This releases the barrel. Slap new one one, torque it back, fold back the handle, slap the handguard back on.
The charging handle is reversible, left or right side. It can be set for reciprocating, or non. It will work as a forward assist.
The firing pin is proprietary. The bolt carrier is like the AR18. I did not pull a bolt out of a carrier to look at it, so I'm not sure how exactly it cams, if it is a seperate piece, or if it is a machined part like on the XCR.
The front handguard can take modular rails, or they have a fully railed version. The regular version is pretty light.
I really like the stock. Adjustable for height, length, and foldable.
There will probably be a dustcover on the final gun. They haven't decided yet. However there will still be a good sized opening on the sides for the charging handle.
Basically when you hold this rifle in your hands, it just feels really good. I'm excited to get one and beat the hell out of it to see what happens.
-Larry
Wes, the one they didn't want you cycling was one of the ones where some of the plastic on it was prototyping stuff, and not the hard stuff. The others you could beat on pretty well.
Okay, here are my initial impressions. I like it so far. It feels good. Looks good. And has some neat features.
The trigger parts are basically AR parts, except for the auto sear. It will be proprietary.
The barrel is a standard AR barrel. Any AR barrel will work. The piston system attaches where the gas block would normally attach. So far they have pistons in mid length and rifle length versions (as far as where they would attach at the ports). They will be working on a carbine, and super shorty version.
The quick detach barrel is the best idea I've seen. You pull the handguard off (one captive pin) then you pull down a small handle which allows you to ratchet an interuppted thread locking collar to one side. This releases the barrel. Slap new one one, torque it back, fold back the handle, slap the handguard back on.
The charging handle is reversible, left or right side. It can be set for reciprocating, or non. It will work as a forward assist.
The firing pin is proprietary. The bolt carrier is like the AR18. I did not pull a bolt out of a carrier to look at it, so I'm not sure how exactly it cams, if it is a seperate piece, or if it is a machined part like on the XCR.
The front handguard can take modular rails, or they have a fully railed version. The regular version is pretty light.
I really like the stock. Adjustable for height, length, and foldable.
There will probably be a dustcover on the final gun. They haven't decided yet. However there will still be a good sized opening on the sides for the charging handle.
Asked about that. ATF has not made a ruling yet.
Basically when you hold this rifle in your hands, it just feels really good. I'm excited to get one and beat the hell out of it to see what happens.
-Larry
That seems to be really well thought out. Here's hoping it works as advertised.
Larry, you may be one of the few who has practical experience with the XCR and has fiddled with the Masada. What do you think of the Masada vis a vis the XCR?
Mike
Larry, you may be one of the few who has practical experience with the XCR and has fiddled with the Masada. What do you think of the Masada vis a vis the XCR?
Mike
I still think the XCR has a lot of really good things going for it, and like I said in my review, with a few little tweaks, it could be the best thing ever.
But the little tweaks that I nitpicked were addressed on the Massada. (check weld, good folder, the bolt parts are captive, and it opens up further for cleaning). Interestingly enough, the guys I was talking with at Magpull had read my review.
The XCR does take down easier, like an FAL, wheras the Massada requires you to punch it open like an AR.
Hard to say. The XCR actually shoots really well. I can't wait to shoot one of these too.
But the little tweaks that I nitpicked were addressed on the Massada. (check weld, good folder, the bolt parts are captive, and it opens up further for cleaning). Interestingly enough, the guys I was talking with at Magpull had read my review.
The XCR does take down easier, like an FAL, wheras the Massada requires you to punch it open like an AR.
Hard to say. The XCR actually shoots really well. I can't wait to shoot one of these too.
Wes Janson
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Correia: It was the only one in the booth I spotted (was on a limited time budget) and was able to get close to, so I suppose that was just my bad luck. I suppose I'm just having trouble getting excited over something that is fundamentally just a comprehensive collection of specific upgrades to the AR-15 (or so is my understanding). Maybe it'll grow on me in time.
Zak Smith
Member
The AR-15 is a mature weapons system... but comparing the new wave of assault rifles (SCAR, Masada, G36, XCR) to it is like comparing an M14's design to the AR15's design. In each case the next wave is taking advantage of better manufacturing techniques and things we have collectively learned to make a rifle that works better.
Plus, it is very exciting that an American company could bring this from concept to prototype in just a few months. Imagine what a year of additional R&D will do to it...
Plus, it is very exciting that an American company could bring this from concept to prototype in just a few months. Imagine what a year of additional R&D will do to it...
Harry Tuttle
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Chen Lee has some good masada tear down pictures here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=310630
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=310630
Don't Tread On Me
Member
Some very neat stuff.
I'll stick with the AR though. I'm not against progress, but the AR has 40 years worth of combat service behind it. It also has 40 years of heavy scrutiny. Then add many years of law enforcement and civilian use.
The AR has flaws, and when I look at new rifles like these...I look for solutions to these flaws, not just add-ons and goodies.
There isn't a thing that hasn't been rung out of the AR yet. Not a thing. No new problem will emerge from that platform that hasn't already been discovered. No other rifle in history has received so much attention and analysis.
That has value to me. I know up front what I'm getting. I know what to expect and how to deal with it. No surprises with the AR.
With mechanical devices, you'd be surprised at how many seemingly "invisible" things or aspects there are to a design that can effect performance. Even the best engineers cannot predict some problems that arise down the road. It is often rare or unpredictable circumstances that exposes a flaw. No rifle in history has been immune from problems, and no rifle ever will be.
The Masada, Sig, XCR and the many others and various hybrids have not shown us anything yet. Similarity is not the same as real-world use. People should keep that in mind. The hype was huge over a few other experimental rifles in the past....no one even talks about those anymore.
The real excitement will come when these various new rifles start getting some serious non-manufacturer testing. I can't wait to see which ones choke, and which steam ahead.
I'll stick with the AR though. I'm not against progress, but the AR has 40 years worth of combat service behind it. It also has 40 years of heavy scrutiny. Then add many years of law enforcement and civilian use.
The AR has flaws, and when I look at new rifles like these...I look for solutions to these flaws, not just add-ons and goodies.
There isn't a thing that hasn't been rung out of the AR yet. Not a thing. No new problem will emerge from that platform that hasn't already been discovered. No other rifle in history has received so much attention and analysis.
That has value to me. I know up front what I'm getting. I know what to expect and how to deal with it. No surprises with the AR.
With mechanical devices, you'd be surprised at how many seemingly "invisible" things or aspects there are to a design that can effect performance. Even the best engineers cannot predict some problems that arise down the road. It is often rare or unpredictable circumstances that exposes a flaw. No rifle in history has been immune from problems, and no rifle ever will be.
The Masada, Sig, XCR and the many others and various hybrids have not shown us anything yet. Similarity is not the same as real-world use. People should keep that in mind. The hype was huge over a few other experimental rifles in the past....no one even talks about those anymore.
The real excitement will come when these various new rifles start getting some serious non-manufacturer testing. I can't wait to see which ones choke, and which steam ahead.
Chris Rhines
Member
I also spent a fair amount of time at the Magpul booth. I'm very impressed with the Masada, and I don't impress easily with the new stuff.
The barrel is similar to an AR-15, but not quite interchangeable - you have to install a small collar between the barrel shoulder and the barrel extension. It's not so much that the Masada barrel can use AR barrels, so much as that anyone set up to manufacture AR barrels can easily make Masada barrels too.
The ergonomics of the Masada are through the roof - better than any rifle made to date. The 11.5" gun is light and responsive, but the barrel tracks like a 20" A2. All the plastic parts of the rifle have a slightly gritty texture that makes for a very secure grip. The bolt can be locked back one-handed, magazine changes are fast and positive (the magwell opening is huge.) This rifle was made to shoot. Apparently Magpul solicited design imput from some local 3-gun and practical rifle shooters, and it really shows.
If Magpul can hit their intended price point ($1200-1500), and if the Masada is reliable, then Magpul has a real hit on their hands.
- Chris
The barrel is similar to an AR-15, but not quite interchangeable - you have to install a small collar between the barrel shoulder and the barrel extension. It's not so much that the Masada barrel can use AR barrels, so much as that anyone set up to manufacture AR barrels can easily make Masada barrels too.
The ergonomics of the Masada are through the roof - better than any rifle made to date. The 11.5" gun is light and responsive, but the barrel tracks like a 20" A2. All the plastic parts of the rifle have a slightly gritty texture that makes for a very secure grip. The bolt can be locked back one-handed, magazine changes are fast and positive (the magwell opening is huge.) This rifle was made to shoot. Apparently Magpul solicited design imput from some local 3-gun and practical rifle shooters, and it really shows.
If Magpul can hit their intended price point ($1200-1500), and if the Masada is reliable, then Magpul has a real hit on their hands.
- Chris
outofbattery
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I kind of like to have my rifle named after an event that was ,hmm-how to put it,a little more won and a little less suicidy maybe? I mean, I wouldn't want to carry a Jonestown .40 either...
carebear
Member
Insert "Kool-Aid Drinker" joke here. 
Feanaro
Member
I was looking at buying an AR but now I'm not so sure. This thing seems to have everything but the kitchen sink and I bet there is a rail attachment for that in the works. It's kind of ugly but you can't have everything all once.
If they weren't dead, I imagine the Jews from Masada would take great offense at being compared to Jonestown. They were fighting a hostile enemy force who had them surrounded. Suicide was a last act of defiance, preventing the Romans from having a more satisfying and tangible death.
I too would rather the rifle was named after a battle where the good guys won but last stands are popular. We certainly use the Battle of Thermopylae a lot on these forums, if only indirectly.
If they weren't dead, I imagine the Jews from Masada would take great offense at being compared to Jonestown. They were fighting a hostile enemy force who had them surrounded. Suicide was a last act of defiance, preventing the Romans from having a more satisfying and tangible death.
I too would rather the rifle was named after a battle where the good guys won but last stands are popular. We certainly use the Battle of Thermopylae a lot on these forums, if only indirectly.
outofbattery
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They didn't go down swinging,they quit.
Spartan,STI has that one already.Leonidas,not too catchy.I could only imagine how bad Thermopylae would get mangled in gun shop speak.Thermie?Not quite.
Spartan,STI has that one already.Leonidas,not too catchy.I could only imagine how bad Thermopylae would get mangled in gun shop speak.Thermie?Not quite.
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