Geronimo45
Member
"I could only imagine how bad Thermopylae would get mangled in gun shop speak." They could try 'Alamo'.
Magpul Rifle
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Feanaro
Member
You expect infants, children, and women (of the day) to have gone "down swinging"? The women would have been raped and everyone killed or enslaved. Mass suicide isn't a very palatable dish but it prevented that fate and denied the Romans the satisfaction of beating them. But this isn't really on topic, so I'll drop it.
Do you know if that is something the "end user" can do? And did they have the SPR type there or is that still in development? I'm not a fan of tiny barrels for a rifle and, for all the good things about it(gun-wise), the ol' Heart of Dixie doesn't kin to SBRs.
Chris Rhines
Member
No, the collar has to be installed when the barrel is manufactured. No one knows if this will make it into the final product - to my eye, it's not really necessary.
One of the demo models at the SHOT Show had an 18" Noveske barrel. Very nice.
- Chris
Langenator
Member
Well, by the time the Masada should make it onto the civvy market about the same time as FN is claiming the SCAR will...by which time the SCAR will have a couple years of use by SOCOM.
Feanaro
Member
For someone who goes through a LOT of ammo, it might be useful. Otherwise, meh.
Exxxxxxxxcellent.
The following info is my best recollection of what Rich told me at the booth:
The target price is $1300 in a basic configuration.
The barrel retaining collar must be pressed on, but is an easy enough process that there should be several people offering it. It does not have to be done during the manufacturing process. It can be done to any barrel.
There is no doubt that as far as Magpul is concerned, the rifle will be offered to peasants. Internally, they are referring to it as "The People's Rifle."
The fire control group is from an AR, but the future auto sear will be proprietary. They are trying to re-engineer the geometry of it.
Most other items have been covered. I have a video of one of the reps demonstrating the barrel change. It's a 5 second video, and he removes and reinstalls in during the 5 seconds, all while talking to me.
The target price is $1300 in a basic configuration.
The barrel retaining collar must be pressed on, but is an easy enough process that there should be several people offering it. It does not have to be done during the manufacturing process. It can be done to any barrel.
There is no doubt that as far as Magpul is concerned, the rifle will be offered to peasants. Internally, they are referring to it as "The People's Rifle."
The fire control group is from an AR, but the future auto sear will be proprietary. They are trying to re-engineer the geometry of it.
Most other items have been covered. I have a video of one of the reps demonstrating the barrel change. It's a 5 second video, and he removes and reinstalls in during the 5 seconds, all while talking to me.
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El Tejon
Member
Power to The People!
Flogger
Member
I don't think the entire Roman Legio X Fretensis was mobilized into a 2 year operation and massive seige works just to throw out squatters
If Masada was the last hold out of the Zealots then they had already killed enough Romans to cause 3 Roman governors to lose their jobs not to mention that they had to kill the 100 Roman soldiers who were stationed there originally.
The Romans are no more likely to have portrayed themselves as badguys after capturing a fort full of women,children and old men as the Imperial Mexicans were after the Alamo
If Masada was the last hold out of the Zealots then they had already killed enough Romans to cause 3 Roman governors to lose their jobs not to mention that they had to kill the 100 Roman soldiers who were stationed there originally.
The Romans are no more likely to have portrayed themselves as badguys after capturing a fort full of women,children and old men as the Imperial Mexicans were after the Alamo
DMK
Member
That would be unusual. Most of the time the SN is on the half that has the magwell.
It would also suck since you couldn't buy or trade uppers in different barrel configurations without going through an FFL. That's a major benefit for the AR.
No, the upper of the Masada is the one consistent piece. The lowers can be swapped between USGI mags and AK mags. The barrels can be changed in about 2 seconds. The handguards take about 2 seconds to change. I think having the serial number on the upper actually provides the most flexibility. Your concern is based on the AR upper having a barrel tourqued on to it and being a major flail to change. This does not apply to the Masada.
DMK
Member
Ah, I see. Then yes, that would be cool. Hopefully the ATF will go for it.
Zak Smith
Member
I apologize for the relatively poor picture quality, didn't have enough light.
[ link to LARGER image ]
[ link to LARGER image ]
[ link to LARGER image ]
[ link to LARGER image ]
[ link to LARGER image ]
[ link to LARGER image ]
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[ link to LARGER image ]Kaylee
Member
looks and sounds pretty darn cool.. and serializing the upper makes perfect sense in this context.
I still think I prefer the XCR so far.. mostly because of the way RobArm handled the bolt and ejector setup.
Now... an XCR pattern made by a company like MagPul.. that'd rock.
I still think I prefer the XCR so far.. mostly because of the way RobArm handled the bolt and ejector setup.
Now... an XCR pattern made by a company like MagPul.. that'd rock.
BrennanKG
Member
Zak,
Many thanks for the pictures!
B.
Many thanks for the pictures!
B.
Zak Smith
Member
More pictures will be coming shortly..
The Masada definitely has better controls and ergos than the XCR. Hopefully we'll see how they shoot side by side in not too long.
The Masada definitely has better controls and ergos than the XCR. Hopefully we'll see how they shoot side by side in not too long.
Zak Smith
Member
Zak Smith
Member
blackhawk2000
member
I think it's a bad idea to use the AR15 bolt, or AR18 bolt, or anything that is close to either of those bolts. I heard both, but I don't really care which of the 2 it actually is. The bolt does not have enough material in critical areas as far as I'm concerned. It is the biggest problem with the AR, even bigger than the DI. Everything else looks well thought out though. And it looks very cool.
Zak Smith
Member
The bolt is a modified AR180 bolt in a proprietary bolt carrier.
The lug area of the AR-15 bolt has been the subject of a LOT of study over the last 10-20 years, and the solutions to its original weaknesses are pretty well known. Armalite, LMT, and others have made changes to the bolt head design to aid reliability and longevity.
The Masada leverages AR-15 parts in some key areas-- specifically the trigger group (which allows use of almost any AR-15 FCG) and the barrel. The up-side to using AR-15 barrels (w/ barrel extension) is that it's easy to take the multitude variations of AR-15 barrels and use them on the Masada. The down-side is that the front of the bolt has to look more or less the same.
The lug area of the AR-15 bolt has been the subject of a LOT of study over the last 10-20 years, and the solutions to its original weaknesses are pretty well known. Armalite, LMT, and others have made changes to the bolt head design to aid reliability and longevity.
The Masada leverages AR-15 parts in some key areas-- specifically the trigger group (which allows use of almost any AR-15 FCG) and the barrel. The up-side to using AR-15 barrels (w/ barrel extension) is that it's easy to take the multitude variations of AR-15 barrels and use them on the Masada. The down-side is that the front of the bolt has to look more or less the same.
blackhawk2000
member
I've seen the improved bolts, and there is only so much you can do on the machining end and still make it fit an AR barrel. I would rather pay more for a barrel, and know the bolt is going to last. Peoples lives could depend on that. I just don't see the purpose of designing a completely new rifle and then using the worst part of it predecessor.
Can they use a different barrel extension, and then design a real bolt?
Can they use a different barrel extension, and then design a real bolt?
Zak Smith
Member
There was recently an interesting discussion on 10-8forums about bolt life. For the military, the summary was that the barrel will be worn out before the bolt reaches its service life end and starts into the failure regime. When the armorer replaced the barrel he would use a new bolt as well, thus avoiding the bolt failure issue (outside of infant mortality failures).
Firearms are machines and parts in machines will wear out. Given that a barrel will be toast by the time the bolt will wear out, and you should really examine and check (ie, headspace) the bolt at that time, I don't see this as a big issue.
Regarding designing a new bolt... Today anyone can replace the bolt design on the AR-15. "All" you need to do is design a new bolt and matching barrel extension, and make it fit in the AR-15 package.
Firearms are machines and parts in machines will wear out. Given that a barrel will be toast by the time the bolt will wear out, and you should really examine and check (ie, headspace) the bolt at that time, I don't see this as a big issue.
Regarding designing a new bolt... Today anyone can replace the bolt design on the AR-15. "All" you need to do is design a new bolt and matching barrel extension, and make it fit in the AR-15 package.
blackhawk2000
member
This thread http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=212676 has this link http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006smallarms/taylor.pdf in it, and this is pulled from the .mil link.
Zak Smith
Member
The design group is aware of AR-15 bolt weakness around the cam pin hole, and the new bolt design addresses that-- it is specifically why AR-15 bolts are not used as drop-in pieces.
For lug breakage, I have no information about if and/or how they are addressing that.
All I can say is that there are at least 3 or 4 bolt lug modifications present in AR-15 weapons currently to reduce lug failure all of which could be applied to the Masada bolt, such as: de-loading lug opposite the extractor to reduce failure rate on lugs adjacent to extractor; not undercutting the two lugs adjacent to the extractor; changing the lug shape to reduce stress risers and reduce breakage.
PS- here is the 10-8forums thread on bolt life
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=39798&an=0&page=0#39798
For lug breakage, I have no information about if and/or how they are addressing that.
All I can say is that there are at least 3 or 4 bolt lug modifications present in AR-15 weapons currently to reduce lug failure all of which could be applied to the Masada bolt, such as: de-loading lug opposite the extractor to reduce failure rate on lugs adjacent to extractor; not undercutting the two lugs adjacent to the extractor; changing the lug shape to reduce stress risers and reduce breakage.
PS- here is the 10-8forums thread on bolt life
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=39798&an=0&page=0#39798
blackhawk2000
member
Actually I just read the 10-8 post before coming back here. Good info. I truly hope they come up with a bolt that works. I'll be disapointed if they just use the old bolt.
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