Major QC Problem with Remington Barrel - Again!

[deuce20]

A cautionary warning for anyone considering new Remington barrels.

Several years ago I ordered a new Remington 11-87 rifle-sighted smoothbore barrel and the quality was horrible. The brazed front rifle sight was cocked to the right 10-15 degrees, and the bore was extremely rough with machining marks which would be unacceptable in a high school shop class. I returned the barrel to the supplier, who in turn returned it to Remington. After a long wait, to Remington's credit, an acceptable replacement was received.

Recently I ordered a new 20" Wingmaster rifled-sighted deer barrel with IC and rifle Rem Choke tubes. Darn it, I received another lemon. The barrel arrived two days ago and after thorough cleaning I have discovered a major problem - the barrel tapping and threading for the Rem Chokes is not concentric with the barrel bore. Below are pictures which clearly show this problem. The red star (*) in the first picture at the three o'clock position marks a significant step between the barrel bore and the IC choke, and the red star (*) at the eleven o'clock position marks the nearly non-existent step in that portion of the bore circumference. To quantify the off-centered tapping & threading, I measured a barrel thickness of 0.050" at the eleven o'clock position and a thickness of 0.020" at the five o'clock position. The canted choke in the bore will perhaps negatively affect accuracy, reliability, and safety with the thin 0.020" barrel wall. With threading also into that 0.020" barrel wall, there's not much material left in spots, so I'm concerned a magnum slug just may rip the choke tube from the barrel, or at minimum, deform it.

I'm talking to my mail-order supplier currently about a return and replacement/credit. Wonder if it would be most expeditious if I return it directly to Remington?

Is Remington's quality that bad these days, or am I just unlucky with my two orders?

 

[Striker]

duece,

I'd give the Remington customer service guys a call and insist that they send a call tag. If they refuse, e-mail them and include the pics in your post. (great job with those pics, you can really see how off centered the choke is)

I'm confident that the Remmie folks will make it right, based on my experience with them.

BTW, while I think you were plain unlucky and got two lemons, some of Kirby's post here recently has caused me to pay attention to screw in choked barrels!

 

[Tezcatlipoca]

I've never really been impressed with Remington shotguns.

 

[Steve H]

I would go straight to Remington. Leave the middle man out of it, Remington needs to hear things like this from the end users.

 

[Fred Fuller]

First, ask Remington customer service what their specs are for barrel wall thickness at the muzzle for RemChoke barrels. Then you can tell if you really have a problem that's more than cosmetic.

If the barrel is within stated specifications, try shooting it and see if it zeros without the sights being way out of alignment. It may be the barrel tube was 'off' and the bore is as it should be, no matter how it looks.

lpl/nc

 

[PJR]

Is Remington's quality that bad these days

Yes it is. However I would shoot this barrel first before sending it back. I have an 870 Wingmaster made in 2002 with a tube that is slightly off center but it patterns properly.

 

[Gordon]

Send it back! Unfortunately thru out the industry , and across the board on alot of US made products, the quality is going down the toilet. The lesser trained factory workers are pushed to a point they don't care and the QC people are on their break time or at meetings trying to cut the last corner and time and don't want mangement to know about the batch screw ups as it makes them look bad. CNC machines only work accurately IF the carosels are constantly kept zero'd and suddenly you have a BUNCH of off center stuff if they aren't. I been looking at the new 1100s and 870s and: PU! They look shoddy!
OK I'll stop the curmudgeon rant and watch the whole pile slide down the tubes like the final days of Rome or the British Empire ect. :banghead:

 

[kirbythegunsmith]

Some details

Barrel manufacture involves drilling, turning to contour, and other procedures that are usually done the same for all the barrels of that gauge, for instance. The longest barrel available will determine that all the barrel blanks will be longer than that, and the shorter barrels will be cut off AFTER the bore, turn, polish, and probably everything but the rib, bead, and choke hole is already done.

The point is that barrels that are initially blanks larger in diameter than the chamber outside, then drilled/reamed, and then turned to a contour of livable weight, are not likely to have the hole absolutely centered in the remaining material for the full length of the barrel. Expect SOME wall thickness variance to be present in all barrels, in any point away from the original muzzle end.

As you cut a barrel to a progressively shorter length, you will run across the point where the hole and the outside have the greatest variant deviation.

For barrels of modern steel, the wall minimum can be a bit less than .020", but I should note that the thread on the Remington is actually of a smaller diameter than the body of the tube, so at the thread section, Remington and a few others (Browning 10 ga., for instance) have more barrel strength, but slightly less tube strength, where the threads are located.

See the group of barrels with the cut ends facing. Most are a definite proof of the wall variance, and the other picture shows them to be of varying length from the muzzle end. One barrel cut only about 6 inches has the one side about half as thick as the other. Not a candidate to have a factory choke installed, but still possible to have one of my custom chokes inserted, in almost all instances.

Each one of these barrels has a story to tell, about what brought them to such a situation that a hacksaw was the only cure. The split muzzle of the camo one showing is mute testimony to the indecent treatment suffered.

[email protected]

 

[Scoupe]

Good info Kiby! I take it those aren't all Remington barrels either...

 

[Master Blaster]

After reading all of these threads about off center choke tube threads, I took out my AL391 Urika Gold 12 Gauge and checked it last night and was relieved to see its perfectly centered, So apparently 5 years ago when this gun was made the folks at Beretta did have some good QC.. I have been using this gun which I bought used in October, LNIB, to shoot trap. Last round I hit 21 out of 25, which is good because I only stated shooting trap in November and have been about 5 times. After reading this thread I started worriing that the reason the gun was sold basically unfired was because the first owner knew it had a problem, thankfuly that was not the case.

I am curious though, if you get a Citori or other double barrel gun with off center choke holes, and then you cut the barrel and redrill them doesn't that effect the POI, since they would have regulated the barrels to the same poi at the factory with the off center choke holes??? So when you staighten them, then the barrels need to be reregulated? Do you unsolder /braze the rib to do this???

 

[PJR]

I am curious though, if you get a Citori or other double barrel gun with off center choke holes, and then you cut the barrel and redrill them doesn't that effect the POI, since they would have regulated the barrels to the same poi at the factory with the off center choke holes???

Don't always assume that factories check the POI on their guns.

I don't think we should make too much about off center chokes. In the last 20 years I've owned a couple dozen shotguns and/or shotgun barrels with choke tubes. With one exception all have had centered chokes and on the exception, noted in a previous post, the pattern is right where it is should be.

 

[mswestfall]

I shoot with a man that recently toured the Kreigoff (sp?) factory.

He watched the man that tunes (bends) the bbls. The man puts them in a "press" and bends them till three points line up as he looks down the bbl. My friend was allowed to tune a couple too.

This tells me that bbls are made then "corrected". This is different than cutting the end to fit chokes but it does imply that each bbl is different.

 

[Gordon]

Still it IS a quality control issue! I looked at the 15 tubed barrels I have and none were visually off center and I can see down to about .003". On the 37 non tubed guns I own only a 30 year old Baikal and a couple more clunkers had slight varing thickness. NOTHING like that new Remmie barrel. Even if it is acceptable to Remington today, it's your money and you should spend it on one that pleases YOU!

 

[kirbythegunsmith]

Observations and details

There is plenty of information being bandied about concerning the need (or not) for accurate choke installation, and the checking of the pattern, point of impact, and visual cues to try to make some determination.

I will tell you here and now that those methods are not able to definitely prove that a choke is straight in the line of the bore of the barrel, which SHOULD be the goal. Anyone that says that a straight choke is unnecessary is only letting you know that they are satisfied with something less than perfect, but by how much are they willing to compromise? How much error are YOU willing to accept?

You may look at the interior of the barrel where the choke seats inside the barrel, but that look will not tell you that the choke is straight, and is only useful to prove that a choke is CROOKED or off-center.

Bonus points go to all those people who privately post to me why that statement is correct. Why can you look at a choke and most likely prove it is crooked, but never prove that it is straight?

If someone tells me that they have had many cars over the years, and never had to have a front-end alignment, and their cars all drove OK, then would you really think that they NEVER had a car with a mis-aligned front end, or that maybe they couldn't tell the difference? It is possible for a front end to be mis-aligned and still not drive with a "pull" to one side, for instance. Tell any mechanic that you can FEEL if a front end is out of alignment or not, and see the look on their face, and then think about whether they actually believe you. Without using the measuring and testing gear, you cannot detect if an alignment condition is present, and be able to measure the error amount.

If someone tells you that a front end alignment won't really make much difference in the quality of your driving, and your performance doesn't suffer due to the alignment being off, and other statements to diminish the importance of proper vehicular maintenance, should that person be looked upon as a mechanical expert? Would you listen to a mechanic that tells you that person is mis-informed?

Gordon tells you that he can see down to .003, and that is pretty good for close vision. If you need reading glasses or are far-sighted, you may not be able to clearly see the choke seat in the barrel. I hope that you weren't too concerned when referring to the muzzle end having the varied thickness, Gordon. Some barrels have one side more rounded over in the (sometimes manual) process of polishing, so you see less apparent muzzle wall at the crown on one side. The thickness variance would not extend back more than 1/4" or so. My apologies if you have actually used measuring calipers to determine, but the muzzle wall variance is not critical, even if unattractive, but I don't say it is totally inconsequential. The alignment of the choke IS consequential, with the matter of degree being the question.

Master Blaster, you might want to know about the pair of Citori shotguns that I had in from an experienced shooter. He was unsatisfied with the shooting performance since the two barrels wouldn't hit together, and that makes for problems when trying to attain shooting precision. I wonder how many shooters think that they can't do any better by switching from a shotgun that shoots off to one that shoots where they point? I have actually had someone tell me that he didn't think it would make any difference for him to have a straight choke. This guy won't ask for directions when he is lost in the woods, either.

I tested the .410 and 28 gauge guns with the chokes from the factory, and the .410 had one barrel hit to the right, and the other one was just a bit high, like you would expect most shotguns to be, but the 2 barrels aren't to the same point of aim. The 28 had one barrel hit to the right, and one to the left, and would be almost a foot apart at 40 yards. Maybe if you could remember which barrel has the built-in lead for birds in that direction, but what about straight-aways?

I cut off and crowned both sets of barrels, and shot them as cyl. bores for POI, and they both shot straight on, just a little high. Then I knew with confidence that when I installed my chokes straight, the POI would be straight, with a very happy owner being the goal.

Shotgun barrels are sometimes bent to be curved, for attachment purposes and regulation, and some are bent to be straightened from the warpage of stresses induced during boring and turning, or actually alteration of stresses, due to the removal of most of the initial mass of material, and the residual stress is free to act, once the main influence is removed. You could call that being "corrected". Rifle barrel bending, though, is only for straightening.

The effectiveness of your shooting should be important to you, and the influences that affect your accurate usage of your guns should all be taken into consideration. If fit of the gun to the shooter is so important, then shouldn't the fit of the parts to each other rate at least as much consideration?

Has this been enlightening?

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