DENALI
member
Military Small Arms of the twentieth century, Vol 7 would be a good place to start reading followed by Jane's small arms review. P.S. Northbender Happy new Year!
Makarov IJ70-17AH
- Thread starter Cron
- Start date
- Status
North Bender
Member
Denali - as I wrote earlier:
"Some say they are based on PPs, some say they aren't. Not worth arguing about."
However, if the 1911 is based on the Colt SAA because the SAA came earlier and shoots a center-fire bullet, and the M16 is based on the M14 ... you Win!!
At what point do you say a pistol with 27 moving parts is based on a pistol with over 50 moving parts with loaded springs that needs a mechanics manual to dissasamble? What does "based on" mean? My .22 has a wood stock that may be "based on" a .58-caliber Springfield.
Well honestly Denali, no harm - I think you take the conversation in the same vein.
But I do take exception to you saying the Mak is not worth more than $200.
"Some say they are based on PPs, some say they aren't. Not worth arguing about."
However, if the 1911 is based on the Colt SAA because the SAA came earlier and shoots a center-fire bullet, and the M16 is based on the M14 ... you Win!!
At what point do you say a pistol with 27 moving parts is based on a pistol with over 50 moving parts with loaded springs that needs a mechanics manual to dissasamble? What does "based on" mean? My .22 has a wood stock that may be "based on" a .58-caliber Springfield.
Well honestly Denali, no harm - I think you take the conversation in the same vein.
But I do take exception to you saying the Mak is not worth more than $200.
DENALI
member
We shall agree to disagree..........................
North Bender
Member
... !
!Hey North
I own a Hicap IJ70-18AH. It shoots no differently than other IJ70's I have owned or borrowed to fire. The grip is obviously wider than a standard model, but actually fit my hand better than the standard. Finish is usually substandard to a Bulgarian or Russian military or East German. Wear is quite common, particularly around the muzzle. If you find one without wear, this should be considered a bonus.
I use Pro Mag magazines, which aren't recommended by most purists, but they have never failed me yet and can be had for much lower costs than original high cap magazines, which, as someone mentioned already, can run up to $75 per mag for the 12 rounders. One issue with Pro Mag magazines is that you are basically limited to either full metal jacket ammo, or 95gr hollow point ammo. 115 grain ammo always jams in a Promag from my experience.
As to the costs, it depends. For someone contemplating a fresh start with a Makarov, I'd probably direct them to get another gun...although being chambered in .380 makes this more appealing in many ways than 9x18, and less appealing in other ways. Ammo availability is almost guaranteed considering all the .380 in the US, but it is a weaker round. New parts are no longer being made for Makarovs anywhere in the world if I understand correctly and eventually this will translate into higher parts prices. 9x18 ammo is rising, and in these economically uncertain times will probably continue to rise, especially so given that many of the ammo offerings have to wing or swim their way all the way from Russia or eastern European surplus warehouses. For you though North I'd say go ahead and get it. You're a Mak guy and probably have enough parts, ammo and accessories to cover any problem or shooting issue that arises for a few years. For someone just starting out, I believe there would be better economic choices out there.
I think that I would agree with some others who've said that Makarovs are a bit overvalued if in 9x18. For a .380 I'd say that you've got a nicely valued firearm in a package you are familiar with. Probably worth having.
I own a Hicap IJ70-18AH. It shoots no differently than other IJ70's I have owned or borrowed to fire. The grip is obviously wider than a standard model, but actually fit my hand better than the standard. Finish is usually substandard to a Bulgarian or Russian military or East German. Wear is quite common, particularly around the muzzle. If you find one without wear, this should be considered a bonus.
I use Pro Mag magazines, which aren't recommended by most purists, but they have never failed me yet and can be had for much lower costs than original high cap magazines, which, as someone mentioned already, can run up to $75 per mag for the 12 rounders. One issue with Pro Mag magazines is that you are basically limited to either full metal jacket ammo, or 95gr hollow point ammo. 115 grain ammo always jams in a Promag from my experience.
As to the costs, it depends. For someone contemplating a fresh start with a Makarov, I'd probably direct them to get another gun...although being chambered in .380 makes this more appealing in many ways than 9x18, and less appealing in other ways. Ammo availability is almost guaranteed considering all the .380 in the US, but it is a weaker round. New parts are no longer being made for Makarovs anywhere in the world if I understand correctly and eventually this will translate into higher parts prices. 9x18 ammo is rising, and in these economically uncertain times will probably continue to rise, especially so given that many of the ammo offerings have to wing or swim their way all the way from Russia or eastern European surplus warehouses. For you though North I'd say go ahead and get it. You're a Mak guy and probably have enough parts, ammo and accessories to cover any problem or shooting issue that arises for a few years. For someone just starting out, I believe there would be better economic choices out there.
I think that I would agree with some others who've said that Makarovs are a bit overvalued if in 9x18. For a .380 I'd say that you've got a nicely valued firearm in a package you are familiar with. Probably worth having.
I don't know if Maks or Mak parts are still being made anywhere in the world. That is a good question. I know both the Bulgarians and Russians were making commercial Maks in the 90's before the import ban. Maks are not prone to breakage, so I wouldn't be too concerned about parts availibility, but I agree, it could be an issue down the road. I have five Maks and I really only shoot two, so I'm not too worried. You can also reload for 9x18 as new boxer primed brass and bullets are being made.
ACORN
Member
To the OP, the nice thing is that even though it's a hi-cap you can also use the original single stack mags in them. They just rattle a bit.
If I found one in nice shape and I had ther money, I'd buy it.
If I found one in nice shape and I had ther money, I'd buy it.
ACORN
Member
Numrich has parts listed. http://www.e-gunparts.com/products.asp?chrMasterModel=2410zPISTOL&MC=
The Makarovs are an incredibly reliable weapon. They are also accurate and really nice shooters. There is much stouter ammo available in 9x18 than the .380. Ammo is still available and easy to find. Several manufacturers are even loading new loadings for it. In either caliber is is well worth 200-300 dollars. I cant' think of another comparable firearm in that price range so I question why someone would way they are "over" valued. They are more expensive than they used to e but they are still quite reasonable.
DENALI
member
Peace friend, When they first came in country I was buying them for as little as 120,00 and that was the little Ruskie military job! I'm sure they've gone up in price as there availability has gone down. So with that said I can say that to my MIND they will never be worth more than that amount of money. P.S. Did I mention I own six of them!
HA HA. I'm not trying to be hostilie towards you Denali. I missed the boat when it came to the really cheap ones. I bought my Bulgarian for about 200 bucks. I haven't seen anything else out there for that price that impresses me nearly as much as that Bulgy. I also missed the boat on the Star BMs. I won two of them and I paid about 220 for each. They were also going for about 130 a few years back. I would really like to send my Bulgy out for a refinish and some modern sights. Its a really cool shooter.
ACORN
Member
Yup, IIRC Russians were $89 and EGs were $99.
The thing is, the value is what the market, will pay, not in what one individual will pay. I won't pay $1200 for a Python but somebody else will.
The question should be, if you were going to sell yours, what would you want for it?. The $100 you paid? I'd bet NOT!
The thing is, the value is what the market, will pay, not in what one individual will pay. I won't pay $1200 for a Python but somebody else will.
The question should be, if you were going to sell yours, what would you want for it?. The $100 you paid? I'd bet NOT!
alamo
Member
I bought an N.I.B. IZH-70 .380 Baikal Mak a few months ago for $125. And I do mean absolutely N.I.B. I stopped by a small gunshop and there were two of them on consignment. Some fella was weeding out his collection who obviously hadn't kept up with Makarov prices.
When it comes to advice on Makarovs, I would always listen to North Bender.
When it comes to advice on Makarovs, I would always listen to North Bender.
Last edited:
You suck. Congrats on the good deal. I paid 199 for mine and I wouldn't quite describe it as nice as yours.
note: When I bought mine it was still caked in cosmoline. I bought a box of ammo and took it to the indoor range at the store where I bought it. It fired perfectly and didn't jam even once. I also fire a 25 group offhand I could cover up with my palm. I really think the design of the MAK is pure genius. It has something like 35 parts while the Glock or 1911 have around 52. While its not a powerhouse it is a really good weapon for its intended purpose and I personally think it is a winner as a CCW piece with JHPs in either 9x18 or .380.
note: When I bought mine it was still caked in cosmoline. I bought a box of ammo and took it to the indoor range at the store where I bought it. It fired perfectly and didn't jam even once. I also fire a 25 group offhand I could cover up with my palm. I really think the design of the MAK is pure genius. It has something like 35 parts while the Glock or 1911 have around 52. While its not a powerhouse it is a really good weapon for its intended purpose and I personally think it is a winner as a CCW piece with JHPs in either 9x18 or .380.
North Bender
Member
Hello Nietzsche my old friend, and thanks for the compliment Alamo!
I'll only dispute the value of a $200 - $300 9x18 Makarov in comparison to another pistol. Nietzsche or Denali (my other old friend), for the sake of argument only, what pistol did you have in mind in that price range that compares? I have to say that the ease of disassembly of a Makarov is a huge reason for this old Vet to appreciate the gun. Man I love a gun that I can thouroughly understand. So if you have a pistol to compare to, I'd like to see it strip down as straight forward as a Makarov. And be as notably reliable.
To go a bit off topic: Unlike the other 9x18 pistols, e.g. the P 64 and PA-63, this country is awash in Makarov parts. I've seen benches at gun shows full of Mak parts. The PA-63 does use a lot of PP parts, but that knowledge of substitution is probably not for beginners.
I posted earlier that a .380 may turn out in the long run to be more versatile because of the ammo. But 9x18 could be considered to be .380 in +P and that's my preference right now.
I'll only dispute the value of a $200 - $300 9x18 Makarov in comparison to another pistol. Nietzsche or Denali (my other old friend), for the sake of argument only, what pistol did you have in mind in that price range that compares? I have to say that the ease of disassembly of a Makarov is a huge reason for this old Vet to appreciate the gun. Man I love a gun that I can thouroughly understand. So if you have a pistol to compare to, I'd like to see it strip down as straight forward as a Makarov. And be as notably reliable.
To go a bit off topic: Unlike the other 9x18 pistols, e.g. the P 64 and PA-63, this country is awash in Makarov parts. I've seen benches at gun shows full of Mak parts. The PA-63 does use a lot of PP parts, but that knowledge of substitution is probably not for beginners.
I posted earlier that a .380 may turn out in the long run to be more versatile because of the ammo. But 9x18 could be considered to be .380 in +P and that's my preference right now.
North Bender
Member
Well, I'll add: if Russia, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and to a lesser extent Italy (Poland, Slovakia (Ps Grand) and Serbia (Prvi Partisan) are also sometime suppliers of 9x18) decide not to export cheaper 9x18 ammo and we get stuck with the price of American 9x18 we're screwed. The caliber is certainly not worth paying over $20 a box for. If you buy the pistol in 9x18 you're pretty much commited to internet sales if you want to shoot a lot.
denfoote
Member
Here's my IJ70-17A.
I bought it new in the early nineties for $89.
I just keeps on going bang, what can I say!!
Some have berated the adjustible sights, but I set mine some 17 years ago and they have not moved!!
North Bender
Member
$89 - now That trancends whether Makarovs are a good deal or not!
(I'll give you $90 for it)
(I'll give you $90 for it)
woad_yurt
Member
Speak of the devil....
Today, at about 2:45, I got the same gun in 9X18 for $173 (out the door price) in a pawn shop. I am pretty happy right now.
Today, at about 2:45, I got the same gun in 9X18 for $173 (out the door price) in a pawn shop. I am pretty happy right now.
North Bender wrote:
I don't have a list of guns that I'd recommend off the top of my head. A search on Gunbroker for guns of comparable price would probably be easily done. I suppose the ones I have experience with would be the Bersa .380, used S&W .38 revolvers. Used .357 revolvers. Many of these can be found for 200 to 300 dollars. Buying used isn't a problem for me. After all, Makarovs are typically used!
Your experience with Makarov parts availability is very different from mine. I never find any Makarov spare parts here. True, I live in the economically backward state of Mississippi, but we are as a group proud supporters of guns as hunting implements, self defense tools, and as marriage companions. So it always strikes me odd that I don't find more parts and accessories available here in my state. I come across the occasional Makarov pistol for sale, and procuring magazines is fairly easy, but parts are not to be found. I myself have got a parts kit with a slide for sale on this site right now...but doing a search I notice I'm the only one. That seems to suggest that a huge surplus isn't universal...otherwise I'd see more parts being posted for sale.
It wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea for some Makarovnik to canvass Numrich and other parts suppliers to find out just how many Mak parts they have in inventory, if these companies were willing to part with such information. I do believe that I heard that new parts for Makarov are no longer being made, and that Bulgaria was the last country to produce these parts. If true, this means that eventually...at some point...parts will become an issue. Both availability, and price, which are not always the same. Sometimes things can't be had at any price, cause they're gone. Which is why I don't enjoy my favorite delicacy...passenger pigeon...on a more frequent basis.
My other issue is with 9x18mm. In .380, a Makarov can be reasonably assured of always having some type of ammo to shoot. .380 is a popular caliber, and companies will continue to make and sell it at outrageous prices...but available even if expensive. 9x18mm is a far, far less popular caliber and only 6 or 7 guns in this country use it. Versus the 100's of guns that use .380. With economic problems potentially on the horizon, companies are going to need to decide what they produce, and choose not to produce. Likewise customers have to decide what they will purchase and not purchase. Purchasing 9mm Parabellum for use in their Berreta, Ruger, Hi Point carbine, Colt, Llama, Taurus et al 9mm's makes economic sense, because the round is widely used across manufacturers. I just don't think 9x18 is going to stand much chance, eventually, in that environment.
Makarovs are fine guns. I love mine. But I'd probably not recommend them to a beginner unless it was chambered in .380, and at a price at or below what a good Bersa or comparable .380 could be had for, given the question over parts availability.
I don't have a list of guns that I'd recommend off the top of my head. A search on Gunbroker for guns of comparable price would probably be easily done. I suppose the ones I have experience with would be the Bersa .380, used S&W .38 revolvers. Used .357 revolvers. Many of these can be found for 200 to 300 dollars. Buying used isn't a problem for me. After all, Makarovs are typically used!
Your experience with Makarov parts availability is very different from mine. I never find any Makarov spare parts here. True, I live in the economically backward state of Mississippi, but we are as a group proud supporters of guns as hunting implements, self defense tools, and as marriage companions.
So it always strikes me odd that I don't find more parts and accessories available here in my state. I come across the occasional Makarov pistol for sale, and procuring magazines is fairly easy, but parts are not to be found. I myself have got a parts kit with a slide for sale on this site right now...but doing a search I notice I'm the only one. That seems to suggest that a huge surplus isn't universal...otherwise I'd see more parts being posted for sale. It wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea for some Makarovnik to canvass Numrich and other parts suppliers to find out just how many Mak parts they have in inventory, if these companies were willing to part with such information. I do believe that I heard that new parts for Makarov are no longer being made, and that Bulgaria was the last country to produce these parts. If true, this means that eventually...at some point...parts will become an issue. Both availability, and price, which are not always the same. Sometimes things can't be had at any price, cause they're gone. Which is why I don't enjoy my favorite delicacy...passenger pigeon
...on a more frequent basis.My other issue is with 9x18mm. In .380, a Makarov can be reasonably assured of always having some type of ammo to shoot. .380 is a popular caliber, and companies will continue to make and sell it at outrageous prices...but available even if expensive. 9x18mm is a far, far less popular caliber and only 6 or 7 guns in this country use it. Versus the 100's of guns that use .380. With economic problems potentially on the horizon, companies are going to need to decide what they produce, and choose not to produce. Likewise customers have to decide what they will purchase and not purchase. Purchasing 9mm Parabellum for use in their Berreta, Ruger, Hi Point carbine, Colt, Llama, Taurus et al 9mm's makes economic sense, because the round is widely used across manufacturers. I just don't think 9x18 is going to stand much chance, eventually, in that environment.
Makarovs are fine guns. I love mine. But I'd probably not recommend them to a beginner unless it was chambered in .380, and at a price at or below what a good Bersa or comparable .380 could be had for, given the question over parts availability.
North Bender
Member
Nietzsche, there are at least 3 full-time internet sites that I know of selling parts for the Makarov. Gunbroker always has Makarov parts. There is no question about parts availability. Maybe that's why your parts kit won't sell.
I won't go into comparing a Makarov to a Bersa. That's been done a lot before and it's a pretty tired subject. I think the Makarov is a way better value. And I think that Makarov parts are more easily available than Bersa parts.
I won't go into comparing a Makarov to a Bersa. That's been done a lot before and it's a pretty tired subject. I think the Makarov is a way better value. And I think that Makarov parts are more easily available than Bersa parts.
Last edited:
nwilliams
Member
I picked up two IJ70's in 2007 both were in excellent condition and one cost me $175 and the other $185. I sold one of them to a friend and the other I kept as my summer ccw. Both were 9x18 caliber but I prefer that over the .380 anyway as defense load.
The gun is a great shooter, I only have about 500 rounds through mine but its gone bang every time and I can't get over how accurate they are! I also like the fact that they fit my hand well, I'm not usually a fan of small grips, but the grip on my Makarov is fine.
Here's mine.....
The gun is a great shooter, I only have about 500 rounds through mine but its gone bang every time and I can't get over how accurate they are! I also like the fact that they fit my hand well, I'm not usually a fan of small grips, but the grip on my Makarov is fine.
Here's mine.....
- Status
