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Making 7.65 Argentine out of 30-06 case, what step did I miss ?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by sandy4570, Jun 9, 2012.

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  1. sandy4570

    sandy4570 Member

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    I have trouble with this conversion . I annealed the 30-06 cases, then trim the case to 54 mm using Lee cutter and lock stud then full lenght sizing the case with Lee die and remeasure , trim and chamfer the cases. The problem is that after all this the new converted case would not chamber in my Argentine M1909 Mauser .I had to remove the striker assembly off the bolt and use rubber hammer to beat the bolt handle down on this case. It was time consuming and such a pain and it hurt me everytime I hit my prestine Argentine bolt handle with rubber hammer. Once it fire the first time the brass work just fine. The question is what extra step I can do to make the case chamber easily ? I am thinking about fireform the case but then I still need to trim the case and run it through the full lenght sizing die. This never happen with 7.7 Jap converted from 30-06.
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Maybe adjust the sizing die down more until you get press "cam-over" or a definite "bump" at full stoke with no case in the shell holder.

    That takes all the flex and linkage slop out when the press is actually under a good deal of pressure pushing the shoulder back where it has to be.

    If the die isn't adjusted like that, the press flexes enough when sizing it cannot push the shoulder back far enough.

    rc
     
  3. nambu1

    nambu1 Member

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    You need to ream or outside trim the brass.
     
  4. wrench

    wrench Member

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    My 1909 has a very tight chamber, I need to cam over my press hard to size the brass enough to chamber.
     
  5. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    I was visiting one of the manufactures of reloading equipment, one of the conversations we got involved in was about forming 30/06 to 7.65 BM/Argentine, he started with, “All you have to do is etc., etc..” After a while I interrupted him and said “You have never formed 7.65 BM cases from 30/06 chase, have you?'” and he answered with “No”.

    I do not know what press you are using, you said you are using Lee dies, I have Lee dies, I do not use Lee dies.

    I use forming dies, and, I use the feeler gage. My chambers are not adjustable, the length of a case, when forming , is adjustable.

    Again, if I had one forming die it would be a 308 Winchester forming/trim die. I do not have a 7.7 Japanese forming die, so? I use the 308 W forming die.

    When forming a 7.65 BN Mauser case using the 308 W forming die I adjust the die off the shell holder .200 thousandths + a few thousandths to off set the length of the chamber when full length sizing to minimum length.

    When forming 7.7 Japanese I adjust the 308 W forming die off the shell holder .208 thousandths + the usual for full length sizing, when using a forming die the case must be full length sized to restore the case to minimum length, but, when shortening the length of a case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case a reloader can off set excessive chamber length if they know the length of the chamber, again, from the bolt face to the shoulder length.

    7.65 Argentine/BM Mauser have large diameter necks, often called generous, I have never had to ream a neck for a 7.65 Argentine case or a 7mm57. It is possible to ream a 7mm57 chamber to 280 Remington, problem, a small part of the chamber neck will not be cleaned up with the 280 Remington reamer, meaning when fired the 280 case will be extracted with two different neck diameters.

    I have a 7.65 BM forming die, after forming 100 cases the forming die was paid for. Initial trimming is done with a hack saw, each case must be trimmed .384 thousandths, when forming 100 cases that is 38.4 inches, or over a yard of trimming, or 3’ 2.4”.

    F. Guffey
     
  6. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    I have cam over presses, the Rock Chucker is not one of them, meaning I have Rock Chuckers, none of them cam over, they jam up, lock up or go into a bind. Not going into cam over is a good thing.

    F. Guffey
     
  7. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    “The question is what extra step I can do to make the case chamber easily?”

    I do not know what press you are using, I have presses, I have presses that I will not use when forming cases or sizing cases that have resistance to sizing, seems not all of my presses have the same ability to overcome case resistance to be sized. In the perfect world I would be using new or once fired cases, or cases I have annealed that have been annealed down to the point of case body/shoulder juncture below the new shoulder.

    Understanding the press and measuring results before lowering the ram. Again, in the perfect world when sizing and forming the die contacts the shell holder when the press cams over??? Before lowering the ram, check the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die, Of the case won and had more resistance to sizing then the press, die and shell holder could overcome, the amount of case protruding between the die and shell holder will inform the reloader ‘by how much’.

    Some reloaders, acting in an advisory capacity will recommend getting up from the reloading bench to get a flash light, around here when I need a flash light I am forced to find one, anyhow, I can not measure light width beams (or the width of a beam of light) in thousandths so I use a feeler gage, the companion tool to the press, about $11.00 for that gets down to .001 thousandths, if I can measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder I know the case is holding the die off the shell holder by that much in thousandths, and I can remove the shell holder before lowering the ram, then remove the die with the case protruding from the the bottom, then measure the case head protrusion, in the perfect world case head protrusion would be .125 thousandths.

    if the case will not chamber, or allow the bolt to close, never, never, never force the bolt to close, it is never necessary and that technique is nothing but a bad habit, instead increase the ability of the press to overcome resistance by adding shims, spacers or leafs from a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head, an additional .012 thousandths can be added when using RCBS shell holders. Again, properly annealed cases, new or once fired cases should not be a problem when using a good lube and forming dies, again, I am the fan of forming dies, not often a reloader has the opportunity to use the ‘man tool’, the hack saw and finish with a file.

    As I said there is 3’ = to 36 inches + to be trimmed when forming 100 30/06 cases to 7.65mm Argentine/BM Mauser, the hack saw makes short work of that task and the file makes it look like the reloader knows what they are doing. After forming and trimming the top of the case with a file the reloader/case former can lower the ram 1/4 inch then raise the ram again, then finish with the file again, could be roll over, could be caused by the case being compressed and relaxing when the die is lowered, who knows? I do not care, the length of my cases after forming are more consistent in length when I use this method.

    The question was about “What can I do?” or “What must I do?” I have little to no use for a press than can not overcome the case’s ability to resist sizing, for those presses that have ability I have methods and or techniques to increase the presses ability, I have ways to determine if the press is winning or if the case is winning, again, this stuff does not lock me up, some of my methods could cause the weak to pass out and the strong to to get dizzy, and that makes it unsuitable for discussion on the WWW or Internet, as it pertains to forcing the bolt closed with a hammer.

    F. Guffey
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  8. ranger335v

    ranger335v Member

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    "Making 7.65 Argentine out of 30-06 case, what step did I miss ?"

    That's about as easy as case reforming gets, probably what you "missed" is failure to completly insert the case into the FL die. That's what causes probably 98% of difficulty chambering anything. Most of that failure comes from trying to adjust sizers according to 'instructions' of so much of a turn after shell holder contact which can't possibly assure anything because presses - and dies and shell holders - differ; we MUST adjust our dies by results, not by some hopeful guide line or some ambigious 'cam over', etc. (Actually, camover is about the rotation of the lever/toggle block and occurs even if there's no die in the press when the ram is pushed up and passed it's highest point of travel.)

    Lube a case and reinsert into the die, then look between the die mouth and shell holder to see if there's daylight shinning between the die and shell holder while the press is under stress; there probably is. Lower the case and turn the die down just a tad and try again, repeat until the gap is closed.

    I may be wrong but I don't think anyone has made/marketed "file trim" dies for ten years -- or more.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  9. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    Again:


    " the case will not chamber, or allow the bolt to close, never, never, never force the bolt to close, it is never necessary and that technique is nothing but a bad habit, instead increase the ability of the press to overcome resistance by adding shims, spacers or leafs from a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head, an additional .012 thousandths can be added when using RCBS shell holders. Again, properly annealed cases, new or once fired cases should not be a problem when using a good lube and forming dies, again, I am the fan of forming dies, not often a reloader has the opportunity to use the ‘man tool’, the hack saw and finish with a file.

    As I said there is 3’ = to 36 inches + to be trimmed when forming 100 30/06 cases to 7.65mm Argentine/BM Mauser, the hack saw makes short work of that task and the file makes it look like the reloader knows what they are doing. After forming and trimming the top of the case with a file the reloader/case former can lower the ram 1/4 inch then raise the ram again, then finish with the file again, could be roll over, could be caused by the case being compressed and relaxing when the die is lowered, who knows? I do not care, the length of my cases after forming are more consistent in length when I use this method?"

    RCBS list the trim die as having a number, the same number is shared with the forming die, that makes the die with the same number a trim/form die. First form, then trim, first option when trimming 36 " (inches) per 100 cases is the man tool, the hack saw, then finish with the file.

    I have file trim dies, hammer in/knock out with no threads on the outside of the die, some were included in Lee kits, but when forming 100 + cases the file trim die is not even a consideration. And I have seen the file trim die listed for sale and listed under ‘gotta have’ for precision, or it could have been listed for ‘benchresters’, again, for me the file trim die is less than ‘nice to have’.

    F. Guffey
     
  10. sandy4570

    sandy4570 Member

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    Sirs, thank everyone kindly for the information. I will try all the advices and shall return if I have more question . Btw ,Can I use .308 Winchester /Nato brass for this conversion also ? how about 8 MM Mauser , I assume there is no trimming involve with .308 'cause the case is 2 mm shorter?
     
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