Mauser case-forming question

[ProfessorX]

I will start by saying that I am relatively new at reloading, but understand the basics and have had some success. This is my first attempt at case-forming. I have a 7.65 Argentine Mauser and I am using an RCBS case-forming die to convert virgin .30-06 brass in 7.65 brass. I began by annealing the brass..... then running it thru the case forming die.... then rough-cutting it to length.... then trimming it to length.....then running it full a full-length sizing die.....then re-checking length and trimming if necessary.
After these steps, I would try to chamber the newly formed and sized empty case (not primed or charged, and without a bullet) in the rifle. With every case, it is difficult to close the bolt (but it does close with a little force).
Presently, the full-length sizing die touches the shell holder at the top of the stroke, so I can't see how I can adjust the die any more.....and finally, I do not yet have a case-length gauge but I am in the process of getting one. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am not an expert at case forming but until Friar Guffey or other comes along...

I would ink the case and see where it is tight in the gun. Maybe the shoulder is not back far enough, maybe the neck is thick.

If the shoulder, I would apply a Guffeygram and slide a feeler gauge, shim, or strip of beercan under a case to raise it in the shellholder. This would gain you a few thousandths which might be enough without modifying anything.

 

[ironworkerwill]

Jim steered you down the right path. If the neck and shoulder has been work hardened too much another annealing just before the final resize might do some good. That is if the shim does not work.

 

[Jim Watson]

My single stage was set up in .45 ACP, same shellholder as .30 or 7.65.
I cut some strips of Coke can and put them under a case to raise it in the shellholder cut.
I could get a case in over in three pieces easily and four with a push. Four thicknesses of can aluminum is .014" which ought to be a gracious plenty. Try one, two, three first.

 

[ironworkerwill]

You can also deck the shell holder down to what ever is needed if you find the shim to be helpfull. Mark that shell holder to never confuse it with regular shell holders. Reloaders often have several holders of that size.

 

[Savage99]

deleted

 

[ProfessorX]

Thanks for the input so far... I should also mention that I'm using a Hornady progressive press....and the shell holder is actually a shell "plate". The very bottom of the die (approx. 3/4 in in diameter) touches the shell plate in a circular recess just slightly larger than 3/4 inch. To relieve the shell plate, this recess would have to be machined...NOT the top surface of the shell plate. Of course, I could always get an economical single-stage press (don't have one, but could always use one) and machine the shell holder.....or (another thought here) I could machine the bottom of the DIE (although the "set-up" on the milling machine would be a bitch). I did anneal the shells again as suggested, and then cycled them thru the action of the rifle. It is slightly more easy to get the case into battery after the first time it has been cycled. It's not the proper solution, however....

 

[Jim Watson]

You could shave off the bottom of the die a bit.
You don't HAVE to run it all the way down on normal cases.

You don't have a single stage press? I won't preach about the usefulness of a single stage and the difficulty of doing anything but straightforward bulk loading on a progressive. ButI could.
Do you have a friend with a single stage press?

I think that a regular shellholder with a shim or shaved off the top a bit would let you size those formed cases to where they would chamber freely. You might not have to hit them that hard again once they were fireformed.

 

[ironworkerwill]

Progressive, what's that?

Of course, you'd never modify a shell plate. You can get a Lee aluminum press that is inexpensive and works quite well.

 

[Slamfire]

Presently, the full-length sizing die touches the shell holder at the top of the stroke, so I can't see how I can adjust the die any more.....and finally, I do not yet have a case-length gauge but I am in the process of getting one. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Your die is too long. Grind material off the bottom of the thing. I have done that for a number of Lee sizing dies. You need to be careful on this, just a couple of thousandth's of material removal, then test.

 

[ProfessorX]

I'm with you on this one Slamfire....my question is how best to do it?

 

[FROGO207]

If you have a grinder and a variable speed drill it is easy. Back the decapping stem out some, lock it and chuck the stem in the drill. Then touch the bottom of the die to the grinding wheel as it is rotating at a medium speed. This will remove material evenly if you hold the die square to the wheel. Go slowly and check often. This should not take long to do. I have modified several sizing dies in this way.

 

[ProfessorX]

It's interesting that Slamfire spoke of Lee dies being too long, and that happens to be the brand of dies that I am using. Also, if I DO make a mistake, I would rather ruin a die than the shell plate. (MUCH cheaper.) And as I think about this, it really won't make much of a difference if the die does not "size" the last few thousandths at the bottom of the case (that is where the die material will be ground away).
Presently, the die is locked in a "lock n' load" bushing.....I'm thinking that if I keep it secured in the bushing (and relieve the bottom of the die without changing the setting in the bushing)... then I can re-install the (now relieved) bushing and slowly adjust the setting downward , and keep checking how the bolt closes on the sized cases. Once the bolt closes properly I should be okay.

 

[morcey2]

Easiest method for case forming:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12652



Matt

 

[ProfessorX]

THE SOLUTION: Well, after some thought, I did take the die/quick bushing out of the press without disturbing the "relationship/setting" of the die and the bushing. I used the side face of an angle grinder to grind a few thousandths from the bottom of the die. I did do my best to do it squarely, but I really think it does not matter all that much....the main goal was to relieve the interference between the die bottom and the shell plate.
I re-installed the die/bushing (Lock n Load bushing) and marked the position of the die (I made a mark at 12 oclock) so that I could see how much I turned the die (clockwise) as I made adjustments. I then adjusted the die downward a little at a time....trying the case each time until the bolt would close without difficulty. As soon as the bolt closed with "normal" effort I locked the bushing in place. Mission accomplished.

 

[Swampman]

Even if you've got them chambering easily, I'd still urge you to check the outside neck diameter of a couple of cases AFTER you've seated the bullets you intend to use.

The chances are good that you'll need to neck turn or ream your cases in order to get the neck diameter small enough to safely release the bullet upon firing, since the 7.65 neck has been formed from the body of the 30-06 case.

Years ago, when I formed a lot of 7mm Mauser brass from 30-06 cases, I found that Winchester brass worked best since the case walls were thinner to begin with. If you use Lake City '06 brass they're almost certainly going to need reaming/turning.

 

[ProfessorX]

Thanks Swampman.....good ADVICE.

 

[clearcut]

Hey X I'm glad to see you got your 7.65 dies working I powder coated some .311 cast bullets and they are now .314 so they work in my 7.65 that slugs @ .313.Let know if you want to try some?
CC

 

[ProfessorX]

Clearcut.... sent you a PM. (Still haven't properly slugged my barrel so I don't know what I need yet)

 

[ProfessorX]

QUOTE: "Even if you've got them chambering easily, I'd still urge you to check the outside neck diameter of a couple of cases AFTER you've seated the bullets you intend to use.

The chances are good that you'll need to neck turn or ream your cases in order to get the neck diameter small enough to safely release the bullet upon firing, since the 7.65 neck has been formed from the body of the 30-06 case.

Years ago, when I formed a lot of 7mm Mauser brass from 30-06 cases, I found that Winchester brass worked best since the case walls were thinner to begin with. If you use Lake City '06 brass they're almost certainly going to need reaming/turning. " END QUOTE

...........................................................................................................................

The above is good advice from Swampman. As it turns out, I pulled a FMJ bullet from some Serbian factory ammo. (The bullet measured .312). I loaded it into an empty (formed from .30-06 brass) case and it chambered perfectly. Then, because I couldn't resist, I made a "charged" round and fired my first fabricated round. Felt pretty good. Of course, I know I need to slug the barrel to determine proper bullet diameter for best accuracy, but I just couldn't resist.

 

[fguffey]

Presently, the full-length sizing die touches the shell holder at the top of the stroke, so I can't see how I can adjust the die any more.....and finally, I do not yet have a case-length gauge but I am in the process of getting one. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

If a reloader has fired cases that were fired in his chamber he should know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the diameter of the neck in the chamber. I have formed 1,000s of 30/06 cases to 8mm57 and 7mm57 chambers, It has never been necessary to turn the outside of the neck or ream the inside diameter of the neck.

reloader have chambered 7mm57 chambers to 280 Remington chambers, THEN? They fire a case and discover the fired case neck has two diameters, the larger diameter is the part of the neck the 280 Remington reamer could not clean up and then the smaller diameter. The smaller diameter is the new neck cut by the 280 Remington reamer. The 308 W? Same thing, the 30/06 reamer will not clean up the case body/shoulder juncture of the 308 W chamber.

I can't see how I can adjust the die any more.....

True, it is latent or hidden, the deck height of the shell holder is .125", many reloaders are happy with that, because it is latent, not me, I use a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and bottom of the case head, I can gain an advantage of .012", not because I can but because I know when I need a case sized for a short chamber.

F. Guffey