Having had no luck locating a firing pin for my shotgun (including checking with the original manufacturer in Spain), I may try my hand at making one. Since it is for a double, I have a good one to take the measurements from. I have a lathe, files, micrometer, and spare time. If it takes me all day to slowly file a piece of steel to the proper dimensions, that's fine with me. My questions come as to what type of steel to use, whether it has to be hardened/tempered, etc. The steel my current firing pins was made of doesn't seem that hard. The back of both pins has been peened by the hammers. But one pin must have been a little brittle since it broke off at the tip. Any advice??
Making a firing pin
- Thread starter Oldnamvet
- Start date
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Try 01 tool steel machines pretty good. machine the part in the lathe, leaving a small bit of the stock to hold it. Heat to cherry red or critical, that is when a magnet does not hold anymore. Quench in Transmission fluid. Polish and bake in the oven at 40 degrees for 1/2 hour, it will turn straw brown=yellow. Cut off stock piece polish it is ready.
It will never peen or break again.
It will never peen or break again.
Before copying the existing pin, take it out and make sure it fits in the other side, and/or compare the pins closely. Some double gun firing pins are not identical; if not, you will have to figure out what the difference is.
I think you will find it easy enough that you might want to make both pins while you are at it; if one broke, the other may follow.
Jim
I think you will find it easy enough that you might want to make both pins while you are at it; if one broke, the other may follow.
Jim
Would an old good quality screwdriver shaft be adequate steel to use?
As far as I can tell, both firing pins are identical. But that is a good suggestion to make two of them. Obviously, there was a flaw. In 50+ years of shooting, it is the first broken firing pin I have experienced.
As far as I can tell, both firing pins are identical. But that is a good suggestion to make two of them. Obviously, there was a flaw. In 50+ years of shooting, it is the first broken firing pin I have experienced.
mrmeval
Member
Without the ability to harden and test the screw driver it's not possible to say if it would work or not.
A long drill bit, one that has a small length of cutting edge and a lot of shaft, will work.
Heat to red hot and allow to air cool to anneal it, this will make the metal soft and easier to file or mill to shape. Then heat treat as mentioned earlier.
A long drill bit, one that has a small length of cutting edge and a lot of shaft, will work.
Heat to red hot and allow to air cool to anneal it, this will make the metal soft and easier to file or mill to shape. Then heat treat as mentioned earlier.
I always made them out of drill rod, which is pretty cheap and you know what the steel is. Plus, you know the quench and draw temperatures. Some of the better equipped hardware/home stores will sell it, as well as machine shops. Brownells has it for $3-$4 for 18 inches, which allows for plenty of mistakes, but of course you have to add S&H.
Jim
Jim
mrmeval
Member
:banghead:
I'll keep that in mind now as the steel is very useful for a lot of things. I looked for the right spec steel rod and didn't find it online in small quantities.
Thanks Jim
I'll keep that in mind now as the steel is very useful for a lot of things. I looked for the right spec steel rod and didn't find it online in small quantities.
Thanks Jim
Zeke/PA
Member
MOST small machine shops have a supply of drill rod in various diameters and most will sell you a small piece.
The most common is oil hardening stuff but occasionally water hardening can be found.
To oil harden:
Heat the part cherry red and drop it into oil.( old motor oil is fine)
The part then must be tempered (drawn if you prefer).
To do so:
Polish the part bright. (KEEP FINGER OIL OFF)
Clamp a flat piece of aluminum or copper in your vice.
Set part on flat piece. Heat underside of flat piece . Carefully observe color change in part. when it is about the color of light tea, quit.
You may want to stop the anneal (color change) at this point so drop the part in water.
Zeke
The most common is oil hardening stuff but occasionally water hardening can be found.
To oil harden:
Heat the part cherry red and drop it into oil.( old motor oil is fine)
The part then must be tempered (drawn if you prefer).
To do so:
Polish the part bright. (KEEP FINGER OIL OFF)
Clamp a flat piece of aluminum or copper in your vice.
Set part on flat piece. Heat underside of flat piece . Carefully observe color change in part. when it is about the color of light tea, quit.
You may want to stop the anneal (color change) at this point so drop the part in water.
Zeke
Alvin in AZ
Member
When heat treating something like O1 or W1 drill rod, the time at-temperature doesn't count for anything as long as it's all-the-way nonmagnetic in the heated area, it's ready to quench.
I call that the "magnet method".
I don't use that method for my knife blades or knife springs, I use what I call the "arrest point method". It's a little more precise and yields more consitant results but goes by the color and needs to be learned first hand with your equipment.
Drawing the temperature on O1 or W1 below 425F a guy needs to hold it for at least an hour, more won't really help but won't hurt.
The trick tho is for the part to not get hotter than you want or cool either as the oven cycles.
If drawing at 425F and higher (straw) the steel responds to those temperatures quick enough, 15 minutes is plenty. Making the part into a spring and drawing up there around 650F, 5 minutes is plenty there. I've found drawing a slip-joint knife spring to "watch spring blue" is best to do that twice since it usually only takes a minute or so each time.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/springtest.jpg
I draw my springs on the electric stove at night with the lights out so I can see the coil begin to glow... that's 750F! Turn off the stove turn on the light and watch the fresh sanded part's colors run.
I've got it figured out to set the stove to turn itself off just as the coil begins to glow so then there isn't all that turning the lights on and off sillyness I was doing the first night whenfiguring this method out.
Alvin in AZ (metallurgy as a hobby
ps- mrmeval, hope you weren't talkin'bout re-heat treating HSS drill-bits there!
I call that the "magnet method".
I don't use that method for my knife blades or knife springs, I use what I call the "arrest point method". It's a little more precise and yields more consitant results but goes by the color and needs to be learned first hand with your equipment.
Drawing the temperature on O1 or W1 below 425F a guy needs to hold it for at least an hour, more won't really help but won't hurt.
The trick tho is for the part to not get hotter than you want or cool either as the oven cycles.If drawing at 425F and higher (straw) the steel responds to those temperatures quick enough, 15 minutes is plenty. Making the part into a spring and drawing up there around 650F, 5 minutes is plenty there. I've found drawing a slip-joint knife spring to "watch spring blue" is best to do that twice since it usually only takes a minute or so each time.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/springtest.jpg
I draw my springs on the electric stove at night with the lights out so I can see the coil begin to glow... that's 750F!
Turn off the stove turn on the light and watch the fresh sanded part's colors run. I've got it figured out to set the stove to turn itself off just as the coil begins to glow so then there isn't all that turning the lights on and off sillyness I was doing the first night whenfiguring this method out.
Alvin in AZ (metallurgy as a hobby
ps- mrmeval, hope you weren't talkin'bout re-heat treating HSS drill-bits there!
mrmeval
Member
I don't have any HSS and the only experience I've had is with worn out standard wood/metal ones and that's been making my own sharp tools a few other parts and the like. I'd look for O1 or W1 based on other comments, what I've found online and from a friend who is a blacksmith. I'd now get the blacksmith to do anything complex as they can either heat treat it or send it to a professional heat treater at reduced cost if it's something odd.
What is HSS equivalent to and what is bad about it?
What is HSS equivalent to and what is bad about it?
Alvin, "time at temperature doesn't count " ?? You need a bit more work on you're hobby !! Curie temperature [nonmagnetic] is 1440, hardening temperature for O-1 is 1450-1500 F.I'd try to hold it at temperature for a minute or two [don't overheat] .1-2 hour temper is always better. From a metallurgists viewpoint !!
Alvin in AZ
Member
Mete. Yeah but. Time at temperature doesn't count because by the time they get done fiddling around with that dangged magnet, it'll be ready, see?
It's a practice vs theory kind of thing.
Depending one the heat treating setup, an extra 1 to 2 minutes heating time could bring it to forge welding temperatures and a course enough grain when quenched for it to shatter.
I use my "arrest point method" and watch for the shadow to appear in the steel after the thinner-sections and outer-edges of the knife blade have gone through the arrest point and then wait for the rest to do so too and as soon as the color evens-out it's ready to quench.
The steel tells you when its ready to be quenched.
No need for temperature numbers or to even know the exact alloy or carbon content. Spark testing will cover the missing information good enough.
I've had real bad luck re-heat treating factory made knives of 1095. :/
Seems they over heated the crap out of it.
No trouble re-heat treating my own heat treated 1095.
So equipment used in a production run doesn't gaurantee a quality heat treatment. A homemade firing pin might be better than the original if you don't go and over heat the crap out of it.
Alvin in AZ (not a "real" metallurgist but hoping to be a pimple on the ass of a "real" metallurgist someday
Time at temperature doesn't count because by the time they get done fiddling around with that dangged magnet, it'll be ready, see? It's a practice vs theory kind of thing.
Depending one the heat treating setup, an extra 1 to 2 minutes heating time could bring it to forge welding temperatures and a course enough grain when quenched for it to shatter.
I use my "arrest point method" and watch for the shadow to appear in the steel after the thinner-sections and outer-edges of the knife blade have gone through the arrest point and then wait for the rest to do so too and as soon as the color evens-out it's ready to quench.
The steel tells you when its ready to be quenched.
No need for temperature numbers or to even know the exact alloy or carbon content. Spark testing will cover the missing information good enough.
I've had real bad luck re-heat treating factory made knives of 1095. :/
Seems they over heated the crap out of it.
No trouble re-heat treating my own heat treated 1095.
So equipment used in a production run doesn't gaurantee a quality heat treatment. A homemade firing pin might be better than the original if you don't go and over heat the crap out of it.
Alvin in AZ (not a "real" metallurgist but hoping to be a pimple on the ass of a "real" metallurgist someday
Alvin in AZ
Member
Mete!
Oh yeah about the tempering time...
I've never found any scientific information speaking to tougness or hardness figures for quick'n'dirty "blacksmith" temper drawing.
All my information (like you spoke of) is from ASM etc and is always about one hour draws or two-one hour draws etc.
Got any idea where I can get information about the short-time drawing methods?
It'd be good information to know.
Like how the blue brittle stage is when the steel is -held- in that temperature range but from other sources seems that blue brittle stage doesn't effect a quick and dirty blacksmith type temper draw.
Otherwise everything drawn that way would break accross that temperature zone's line, right? In practice it isn't that way.
That is an area I know I'm lacking information.
Got any ideas for me?
Alvin in AZ
Oh yeah about the tempering time...
I've never found any scientific information speaking to tougness or hardness figures for quick'n'dirty "blacksmith" temper drawing.
All my information (like you spoke of) is from ASM etc and is always about one hour draws or two-one hour draws etc.
Got any idea where I can get information about the short-time drawing methods?
It'd be good information to know.
Like how the blue brittle stage is when the steel is -held- in that temperature range but from other sources seems that blue brittle stage doesn't effect a quick and dirty blacksmith type temper draw.
Otherwise everything drawn that way would break accross that temperature zone's line, right?
In practice it isn't that way.That is an area I know I'm lacking information.
Got any ideas for me?
Alvin in AZ
Finished
Thanks for all the advice. I used an old 1/4" drill bit, my drill press, several sizes of files, a vernier caliper, several hours, and loads of patience to make a new one. Installed and it works like a champ. I hope it doesn't happen again although if it lasts as long as the original, it will outlive me and be someone else's problem.
I did contact the manufacturer (Zabala) in Spain and they immediately sent me a new set of firing pins --free. Unfortunately, they were'nt the type I needed. They had screw-in bushings and were much shorter. No way they would have fit into my gun. But they were helpful, designs had just changed a lot over the timeframe and they no longer had the old types around. So if anyone needs these firing pins, PM me. Free for the postage.
Thanks for all the advice. I used an old 1/4" drill bit, my drill press, several sizes of files, a vernier caliper, several hours, and loads of patience to make a new one. Installed and it works like a champ. I hope it doesn't happen again although if it lasts as long as the original, it will outlive me and be someone else's problem.
I did contact the manufacturer (Zabala) in Spain and they immediately sent me a new set of firing pins --free. Unfortunately, they were'nt the type I needed. They had screw-in bushings and were much shorter. No way they would have fit into my gun. But they were helpful, designs had just changed a lot over the timeframe and they no longer had the old types around. So if anyone needs these firing pins, PM me. Free for the postage.
In the future if this happens, think tool post grinder for shaping the pins from high speed taps. Ground wet, they need no heat treating or re-heat treating. Spark tests are used to determine the type of steel! Certain light conditions must be present to conduct these tests. Heat treating and determining the draw temp only is needed when making flat type pins or pins to long to utilize known materials sizes. The easy source for this information is from "MACHINE SHOP PRACTICES" A vary good source for a shop that has vary accurate tool post grinders is a company that resharpens end mill cutters. Like many jobs that befall us, "there is more than one way to skin that cat".
kirbythegunsmith
Member
Details
When it comes to choice of tool steels, high speed is a normal fine choice. Taps for general use are carbon steel, and super duty taps are high cobalt high speed.
The high speed varieties can't go soft when heated by hard running (like milling cutters), but can't be tempered to a softer state of lesser brittleness to use for anything other than cutting or punching tools.
Every single factory-made firing pin that I have ever seen could be cut with a file, but no high speed tap will pass the file test. Some lesser metals are used to make firing pins, and the deformation mentioned earlier here is an obvious clue that the material was not able to withstand the deformity.
That does not mean that a non-deformable metal is better, just one that resists most deformity, but can give, just a little. Small peen deformity over time is to be expected, but large deformity is to be avoided. No deformity normally means hard to the point of brittle, just like a tap. A typical long firing pin can be bent somewhat into a deformed contour without breaking. No tap can be bent without cracking off, instead of deforming.
The drill shank is no proper metal for ensuring long life, since it can be much softer than the cutting area of the flutes, in many cases, and may not have been hardened at all, in the first place. Shanks can be capable of bending and sacrificing themselves rather than shattering, you know, injury reduction and all that. Not all bits have soft ends, the same as milling cutters or reamers, some soft shank, some hard to the end. In other words, scrap tool parts have too many variations to make any sure and valid choices that are far removed from the original metal's function.
I have reworked broken milling cutters and center drills into specialized one-off cutting tools or stub prick punches, as long as the bit I was using was hard. So, use hard left-overs to make hard newbies, not try to save a few nickels to make something else.
Heat treating mentions of hardening temps and so forth got me to wondering whether or not anyone here understands how a particular temperature got chosen. Do you think that the 1475 degree line (in one instance) could be the lowest temp. before any possibility of hardening is possible? There is a built-in fudge factor for the matter of maneuvering the parts from the oven to the quench line, variations in part thickness, etc. The temp. is supposed to be above the min. temp., but not so high that any danger of burning the steel (to the point of excess grain growth) destroys the strength potential.
Proper lab heat treat and temper, or double temper, are the best way to go, but sometimes practicality gets in the way by tripping over affordability.
If I was to give somebody a quick substitute material choice for a firing pin, and expect it to have workable results and decent lifespan, I'd say to use the shank of a high quality (preferably a grade 8) bolt. Something pretty hard, but machinable, but not brittle.
Remember to check my previous posts for a good overview from a gunsmith perspective.
[email protected]
When it comes to choice of tool steels, high speed is a normal fine choice. Taps for general use are carbon steel, and super duty taps are high cobalt high speed.
The high speed varieties can't go soft when heated by hard running (like milling cutters), but can't be tempered to a softer state of lesser brittleness to use for anything other than cutting or punching tools.
Every single factory-made firing pin that I have ever seen could be cut with a file, but no high speed tap will pass the file test. Some lesser metals are used to make firing pins, and the deformation mentioned earlier here is an obvious clue that the material was not able to withstand the deformity.
That does not mean that a non-deformable metal is better, just one that resists most deformity, but can give, just a little. Small peen deformity over time is to be expected, but large deformity is to be avoided. No deformity normally means hard to the point of brittle, just like a tap. A typical long firing pin can be bent somewhat into a deformed contour without breaking. No tap can be bent without cracking off, instead of deforming.
The drill shank is no proper metal for ensuring long life, since it can be much softer than the cutting area of the flutes, in many cases, and may not have been hardened at all, in the first place. Shanks can be capable of bending and sacrificing themselves rather than shattering, you know, injury reduction and all that. Not all bits have soft ends, the same as milling cutters or reamers, some soft shank, some hard to the end. In other words, scrap tool parts have too many variations to make any sure and valid choices that are far removed from the original metal's function.
I have reworked broken milling cutters and center drills into specialized one-off cutting tools or stub prick punches, as long as the bit I was using was hard. So, use hard left-overs to make hard newbies, not try to save a few nickels to make something else.
Heat treating mentions of hardening temps and so forth got me to wondering whether or not anyone here understands how a particular temperature got chosen. Do you think that the 1475 degree line (in one instance) could be the lowest temp. before any possibility of hardening is possible? There is a built-in fudge factor for the matter of maneuvering the parts from the oven to the quench line, variations in part thickness, etc. The temp. is supposed to be above the min. temp., but not so high that any danger of burning the steel (to the point of excess grain growth) destroys the strength potential.
Proper lab heat treat and temper, or double temper, are the best way to go, but sometimes practicality gets in the way by tripping over affordability.
If I was to give somebody a quick substitute material choice for a firing pin, and expect it to have workable results and decent lifespan, I'd say to use the shank of a high quality (preferably a grade 8) bolt. Something pretty hard, but machinable, but not brittle.
Remember to check my previous posts for a good overview from a gunsmith perspective.
[email protected]
Sir: High speed taps are not carbon tool steel, pity they are not. Carbon taps are several points harder than high speed. This is a major advantage in tapping hardened receivers, not because they last longer, but because they are brittle compared to high speed taps. I say(with all due respect) Sir, you check the information I offer out further, with say Brownells. I do not wish to get into a pissing contest with anyone anywhere any time, This is why I normally avoid these type of forums.
kirbythegunsmith
Member
Clarification?
If you look at my prior post, there is not any mention of me saying that high-speed is the same as carbon steel. I was actually referring to the fact that the economy taps that people generally get in economy kits are carbon steel, not high-speed. That is also why I also mentioned that high cobalt is super duty high speed. You will notice that I said high speed varieties- not singular. These categories are typically called- carbon, high-speed, cobalt, without noting that cobalt is a special version of high-speed, like chromium-vanadium is sometimes referenced.
I am not getting on your case for pointing out my lack of clarity. Sometimes late night posts can leave a few details in the yawns.
I could have made the deliniation more clear, for more complete understanding about that small point, but will also reiterate that a firing pin should not be made from a tap, or other unknown quality and hardness/brittleness piece of scrap.
We did get the lesson in gunsmithing school about using and even re-heat treating carbon taps to super-hard, barely tempered condition for the super-hard metals, but for the real challenge that you are probably better off avoiding or trying by another practical approach, try the super-expensive CARBIDE taps.
One other tip: trying to tap a super-hard receiver is a real problem, that fortunately can be ameliorated by the application of a tiny torch flame on the spot to a point of barely glowing dark red, and then testing with your file tip in a before and after test. Spot tempering, not annealing. This can also possibly be done with the piece of steel rod heated to red and laid against the spot you wish was machinable. Expect to see some dark blue beyond the edge of the area that you wish to attack, or else you don't have enough area tempered. The center spot should be heated beyond the dark blue of spring stock. Springs are hard to file and drill, and you are trying to make life easier, so go for the best you can get with the minimum over-shoot, as it were.
If the case hard or other surface is not fairly scratching, spot grind with the dremel. Trying to force the point that you can somehow tap this bloody-hard piece is a trip down ego lane, not the pursuit of practicality. If you were to break a tap only one gun in 20, that is still too much trouble, and you should be telling the customer about such possibilities prior to getting backed into that corner.
Figure that the heat and grind marks are going to be underneath the base, and not visible, otherwise.
Read my prior posts for more glimpses into a gunsmith's perspective.
[email protected]
If you look at my prior post, there is not any mention of me saying that high-speed is the same as carbon steel. I was actually referring to the fact that the economy taps that people generally get in economy kits are carbon steel, not high-speed. That is also why I also mentioned that high cobalt is super duty high speed. You will notice that I said high speed varieties- not singular. These categories are typically called- carbon, high-speed, cobalt, without noting that cobalt is a special version of high-speed, like chromium-vanadium is sometimes referenced.
I am not getting on your case for pointing out my lack of clarity. Sometimes late night posts can leave a few details in the yawns.
I could have made the deliniation more clear, for more complete understanding about that small point, but will also reiterate that a firing pin should not be made from a tap, or other unknown quality and hardness/brittleness piece of scrap.
We did get the lesson in gunsmithing school about using and even re-heat treating carbon taps to super-hard, barely tempered condition for the super-hard metals, but for the real challenge that you are probably better off avoiding or trying by another practical approach, try the super-expensive CARBIDE taps.
One other tip: trying to tap a super-hard receiver is a real problem, that fortunately can be ameliorated by the application of a tiny torch flame on the spot to a point of barely glowing dark red, and then testing with your file tip in a before and after test. Spot tempering, not annealing. This can also possibly be done with the piece of steel rod heated to red and laid against the spot you wish was machinable. Expect to see some dark blue beyond the edge of the area that you wish to attack, or else you don't have enough area tempered. The center spot should be heated beyond the dark blue of spring stock. Springs are hard to file and drill, and you are trying to make life easier, so go for the best you can get with the minimum over-shoot, as it were.
If the case hard or other surface is not fairly scratching, spot grind with the dremel. Trying to force the point that you can somehow tap this bloody-hard piece is a trip down ego lane, not the pursuit of practicality. If you were to break a tap only one gun in 20, that is still too much trouble, and you should be telling the customer about such possibilities prior to getting backed into that corner.
Figure that the heat and grind marks are going to be underneath the base, and not visible, otherwise.
Read my prior posts for more glimpses into a gunsmith's perspective.
[email protected]
Clark
Member
I was given a Savage 20 ga break action rusty piece of junk with broken firing pin 25 years ago.
I made a firing pin out of a nail by spinning it in a 1/4" electric drill and rubbing a hand file on it.
That gun always worked well after that, it was just too ugly to keep.
I made a firing pin out of a nail by spinning it in a 1/4" electric drill and rubbing a hand file on it.
That gun always worked well after that, it was just too ugly to keep.
Banshee
Member
I have made a lot of pins from 17-4 heat treated to H900. I even made one for a MG-42 Machinegun and it is running just fine after 10 years..
Yes I meant 400 degrees for the temper. Sorry for the typo. So many jump on what is written on a string.
Here’s what I do as a gunsmith of over 30 years, I make the pin from 01 tool steel on the lathe leaving the pin connected to the rest of the stock by a tiny piece. I then use my Ox/Ac torch to heat it to bright red, holding it for 30 seconds or so and then quench in t-fluid. Then I polish the pin to bright using the same torch I heat it till it turns straw colored then quench again in the T-fluid again.
It might not be perfect but I have never made another one for the same gun. Several now have 20-30K through then since the crappy Spanish pins were replaced.
The firing pins on the 60-70 era Spanish SXS's, along with the sears were the reason for the bad reputation. Replacing the pins and Case hardening the sears with Kasenite solved the problems.
Here’s what I do as a gunsmith of over 30 years, I make the pin from 01 tool steel on the lathe leaving the pin connected to the rest of the stock by a tiny piece. I then use my Ox/Ac torch to heat it to bright red, holding it for 30 seconds or so and then quench in t-fluid. Then I polish the pin to bright using the same torch I heat it till it turns straw colored then quench again in the T-fluid again.
It might not be perfect but I have never made another one for the same gun. Several now have 20-30K through then since the crappy Spanish pins were replaced.
The firing pins on the 60-70 era Spanish SXS's, along with the sears were the reason for the bad reputation. Replacing the pins and Case hardening the sears with Kasenite solved the problems.
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