Making a gun vault room, have some questions

[HK_USP_45]

I'm about to start building my gun room, but have a couple issues I need to address. Really just one issue, but I wanted to see if I could get some input on the general plan I have.

I live in Wisconsin, so keeping in mind the temperature/humidity considerations. It's going to be in my basement, which doesn't have too bad of a temp change from winter to summer (I'm going to start tracking this, to see how much it actually does change). It's a partially finished basement, and is pretty dry in general. The area I live in is very low crime, in a suburb. So I don't have much worry about break-in.

I have an area that is an offshoot to my basement, and is 10'x18', it's got cinderblock walls on 3 sides, and nothing but dirt on the other side of the walls. There is about 12" of the basement wall that is exposed above ground, and one window that is made of clear block. So there's no serious worry about anyone gaining access with a sledgehammer through the wall. I just have to put up some sort of moisture barrier along those three walls.

Probably the biggest issue I have is in the one corner is my sump-pump. So that moisture will have to be dealt with. My intent is to partition off the last 2 feet of the room. I'm going to put my reloading/gunsmith bench in that little partitioned off sliver of room (that the sump pump is located in, with large folding doors, so when the doors are shut, the main room looks nice, with no visible bench clutter. I would like to make some sort of access panel around the sump pump, with as much moisture-barrier qualities as I can fashion.

--my first question: any ideas on how to deal with the sump pump situation? I will be adding redundant dehumidifiers to the room.

--my second question: I'm not a fire expert, but with those cinderblock walls, do I need to worry about any type of fireproofing (sheetrock)? I can't picture that being an issue, since it's underground on the other side of the wall.

For the ceiling, I'm going to look at some sort of reinforcement for bearing weight above it (in case of fire and house collapse. There's just a single story above it -- my home office). Then I was thinking about taking some sort of sheet metal and fixing it to the ceiling for theft prevention (except then how would I access pipes/electricity?). Once it's secured, I would fix a moisture barrier and two layers of sheetrock.

--any ideas on how to reinforce the ceiling for theft and weight?

The final part will be building the fourth wall, and putting in a door. I'm going to do cinder block, which will also blend in with the other walls in this part of the basement, so it will camouflage in. I'm not sure how to add a cinderblock wall in a basement, so if anyone knows of any resources, let me know. Otherwise I might have to contract that part out. I've read that I should put rebar down the cavities, and fill it with cement. I'll need to put up some sheet rock on this wall for fire retardation. I thought about some steel sheets between the sheet rock and cinderblock, for sledgehammer entrance prevention.

-- any ideas/thoughts on climate in the room? keeping it dry, and at a consistent temp (warm)?

I appreciate any input on this. Let me know if there's any other factors I haven't considered.

 

[Chuck R.]

I went through a slightly different process; since we were doing new construction we incorporated the vault/safe room into the design. We had the area under the 3 car garage turned into a safe room with reinforced concrete and an engineered reinforced roof (garage floor), it’s roughly 700 square feet of space. For the ceiling support we used steel I-Beams that are built into the foundation. The hard part was finding a suitable door, much to our surprise many of the offerings either couldn’t be secured from the inside, or required an electronic lock to do so. We finally went with a fireproof door from the Sturdy Safe Co. that has a mechanical S&G lock, and a mechanical “panic” lock allowing the door to be secured from the inside. I kept on of my larger gun safes (RSC) and it's also in the room, sort of a safe within a safe for the expensive stuff.

The original concept was to keep the walls bare, but we ended up framing, insulating, and dry walling it in. That was all of a couple weekeds project, so you might want to consider it. We had the room set up as a separate zone on the Geothermal system, which eliminates the humidity issues as long as the system is running. Our room is below grade on 3 sides, and I have to run a dehumidifier in the summer because the room temperature remains below the “average” temperature that we cool with the Geo unit. In the spring it was a non-issue because I heated the room to bring it up to 67, and the humidity was low with the system on. When we designed the room we added a drain in the room specifically for the dehumidifier, so it doesn’t need to be drained. Luckily our builder had done this sort of project before. In your case, I’d take advantage of the sump well as the dehumidifier drain.

IF you can run some of your duct work into your room, it may alleviate some of your heat concerns, or I’d just get a small electric heater.

One issue we had was a not choosing a door in time, before the foundation was poured, so I had to get a custom built door to the dimensions of the opening. Just be sure to choose a suitable door prior to starting your work. It can make a difference in your structural requirements to support it.

I'd keep in mind that you need a layered defense, there's nothing that a good detremined thief can't get into given enough time. What I tried to do was buy enough time for the alarm system to have it's effect, and also discourage your average run of the mill knucklehead theif.

Chuck

 

[HK_USP_45]

Thanks for the info. That's a nice looking room you have. That's a good idea about the sump pump being used as a drain.

What is a good temperature to aim for in a gun vault room? I've read that warm is best. I'm thinking a space heater that I can set to a specific temperature will be the most cost effective way of going. Especially since it's a relatively small space compared with standard rooms in a house. Right now I have two heating/cooling units in my house, one for the first floor and one for the second. The basement is heated using the first floor furnace, but most of that is piped into the finished area, and not much gets back to this area. I'm going to set a thermometer down there and find out what the average temp is, but I'm going to guess and say that it pretty much sticks around 60-65 most of the year.

I think I'm going to have to figure out a way to secure the ceiling, while still allowing for ceiling access for electrical and pipes if need be.

 

[BSA1]

I will respond question by question.

I'm about to start building my gun room, but have a couple issues I need to address.

--my first question: any ideas on how to deal with the sump pump situation? I will be adding redundant dehumidifiers to the room.

Your biggest enemy with a sump pump is it overflowing in the event of a power failure. I would install a battery back-up or water flow back-up system. Trust me flooded basement from when the sump pump quits working is a pita to clean up.

You can also control the moisture by putting some type of lid over the top of the hole.

--my second question: I'm not a fire expert, but with those cinderblock walls, do I need to worry about any type of fireproofing (sheetrock).

I would use concrete block and not worry about additional fireproofing.

For the ceiling, I'm going to look at some sort of reinforcement for bearing weight above it (in case of fire and house collapse. There's just a single story above it -- my home office). Then I was thinking about taking some sort of sheet metal and fixing it to the ceiling for theft prevention (except then how would I access pipes/electricity?). Once it's secured, I would fix a moisture barrier and two layers of sheetrock.

--any ideas on how to reinforce the ceiling for theft and weight?

Not any cheap ones as my vault has a 12” thick concrete ceiling. As the house burns down all of the weight for the burning debris and water is going to collapse the wood floor/ceiling.

For theft protection you could use hog panels. Hog panels are available from Farm and Ranch stores and are made of heavy gauge wire that is hard to cutting with a hack saw. Much tougher to cut through than sheet metal.

Add ceiling jacks for additional weight support but that would seem unneeded if you use hog panels.

The final part will be building the fourth wall, and putting in a door. I'm going to do cinder block, which will also blend in with the other walls in this part of the basement, so it will camouflage in.

I would use concrete block as it is much stronger.

I'm not sure how to add a cinderblock wall in a basement, so if anyone knows of any resources, let me know. Otherwise I might have to contract that part out. I've read that I should put rebar down the cavities, and fill it with cement. I'll need to put up some sheet rock on this wall for fire retardation. I thought about some steel sheets between the sheet rock and cinderblock, for sledgehammer entrance prevention.

You need to add a foundation to support the weight of a cinder block/concrete wall. Since your weakest points of attack are the door and the ceiling I would forgo adding cement and rebar inside the blocks. Remember the weight issue.

I'll need to put up some sheet rock on this wall for fire retardation. I thought about some steel sheets between the sheet rock and cinderblock, for sledgehammer entrance prevention.

Neither are needed. Your easiest and weakest areas of entry is through the door and cutting through the wood first story floor.

-- any ideas/thoughts on climate in the room? keeping it dry, and at a consistent temp (warm)?

What are the extremes? A electric baseboard room heater might be sufficient. (No open flames around gunpowder).

I appreciate any input on this. Let me know if there's any other factors I haven't considered.

Use a exterior grade entry door for your vault preferably a steel clad one. Install it with the door hinges on the inside of the room. Use long screws and anchors to secure the door frame to the wall and long door bolt key locks

 

[HK_USP_45]

Thanks BSA1, I appreciate the feedback. I'll follow suit and respond by question:


--my first question: any ideas on how to deal with the sump pump situation? I will be adding redundant dehumidifiers to the room.

Your biggest enemy with a sump pump is it overflowing in the event of a power failure. I would install a battery back-up or water flow back-up system. Trust me flooded basement from when the sump pump quits working is a pita to clean up.

You can also control the moisture by putting some type of lid over the top of the hole.

I do have a lid over the sump now. In my old house, I've had my basement flood twice, with 3 inches of water. Both times were due to electricity going out during a storm, and the sump pump going out. (in both instances my freezer door lost suction and opened up, causing me to loose the 1/4 side of beef and deer. Whew, did that smell). The first time it happened, I was out of town for 3 months, but thank fully had someone house sitting. You're right, it's a mess. Do you have any internet sources on battery back up systems, if not I can google it.

--my second question: I'm not a fire expert, but with those cinderblock walls, do I need to worry about any type of fireproofing (sheetrock).

I would use concrete block and not worry about additional fireproofing.

The walls are already in place, and I believe it's cinder block (though it could be concrete block, do they look similar from the side?). I'll probably put up sheet rock just so I can make it look nice. in the inside. I want it to have a finished look to it.

For the ceiling, I'm going to look at some sort of reinforcement for bearing weight above it (in case of fire and house collapse. There's just a single story above it -- my home office). Then I was thinking about taking some sort of sheet metal and fixing it to the ceiling for theft prevention (except then how would I access pipes/electricity?). Once it's secured, I would fix a moisture barrier and two layers of sheetrock.

--any ideas on how to reinforce the ceiling for theft and weight?

Not any cheap ones as my vault has a 12” thick concrete ceiling. As the house burns down all of the weight for the burning debris and water is going to collapse the wood floor/ceiling.

For theft protection you could use hog panels. Hog panels are available from Farm and Ranch stores and are made of heavy gauge wire that is hard to cutting with a hack saw. Much tougher to cut through than sheet metal.

Add ceiling jacks for additional weight support but that would seem unneeded if you use hog panels.

Since I don't have a concrete ceiling, will the hog panels suffice? I've never heard of hog panels, but I'll look into it. Is it plausible to set metal beams so that the run adjacent to the wood joists that run across it now? (as a way to prevent the wood ceiling from collapsing). It's 10' across, and the metal beams could rest on the top of the walls, just like the wood does.

The final part will be building the fourth wall, and putting in a door. I'm going to do cinder block, which will also blend in with the other walls in this part of the basement, so it will camouflage in.

I would use concrete block as it is much stronger.

I'm not sure how to add a cinderblock wall in a basement, so if anyone knows of any resources, let me know. Otherwise I might have to contract that part out. I've read that I should put rebar down the cavities, and fill it with cement. I'll need to put up some sheet rock on this wall for fire retardation. I thought about some steel sheets between the sheet rock and cinderblock, for sledgehammer entrance prevention.

You need to add a foundation to support the weight of a cinder block/concrete wall. Since your weakest points of attack are the door and the ceiling I would forgo adding cement and rebar inside the blocks. Remember the weight issue.

Isn't the concrete floor of a basement the foundation? (I'm slightly ignorant of the building process. I know a little, but am not an expert). If that's not the foundation, how do you "add a foundation" and is it expensive?

I'll need to put up some sheet rock on this wall for fire retardation. I thought about some steel sheets between the sheet rock and cinderblock, for sledgehammer entrance prevention.

Neither are needed. Your easiest and weakest areas of entry is through the door and cutting through the wood first story floor.

I would add the sheetrock anyway, just so it looks like a nice, finished room.

-- any ideas/thoughts on climate in the room? keeping it dry, and at a consistent temp (warm)?

What are the extremes? A electric baseboard room heater might be sufficient. (No open flames around gunpowder).

It actually stays pretty consistent temp wise, since it's underground it stays cool in the summer and relatively warm during the winter. I think around 60-65 degrees. My wife has a simple plug-in heater that is ceramic, not open flame. It can be set to a specific temperature. I would probably get something like that. Humidity has the biggest fluctuation, it's very dry during the winter months, and humid during the summer months. But running a dehumidifier rectifies that.

 

[kostyanj]

Bookmarked for future reference

 

[Oxidation]

Bookmarked as well. Great info.

 

[BSA1]

Thanks BSA1, I appreciate the feedback. I'll follow suit and respond by question:


--my first question: any ideas on how to deal with the sump pump situation? I will be adding redundant dehumidifiers to the room

Do you have any internet sources on battery back up systems, if not I can google it.

Any home improvement store, i.e. Lowes, Home Depot) sell them. Pay them a visit to best determine what meets your needs.


The walls are already in place, and I believe it's cinder block (though it could be concrete block, do they look similar from the side?). I'll probably put up sheet rock just so I can make it look nice. in the inside. I want it to have a finished look to it.

Concrete blocks are much smoother in appearance and stronger than cinder block.

Since I don't have a concrete ceiling, will the hog panels suffice? I've never heard of hog panels, but I'll look into it. Is it plausible to set metal beams so that the run adjacent to the wood joists that run across it now? (as a way to prevent the wood ceiling from collapsing). It's 10' across, and the metal beams could rest on the top of the walls, just like the wood does.

I don’t have any ideas on how to fireproof the ceiling and support the weight of the house collapsing on it.

Like I said hog panels are made of very heavy gauge wire and are very hard to cut through with a hack saw. And the thieves will have to cut through a bunch of them to make a hole large enough to fit through.

Isn't the concrete floor of a basement the foundation? (I'm slightly ignorant of the building process. I know a little, but am not an expert). If that's not the foundation, how do you "add a foundation" and is it expensive?

The basement floor is merely a slab and is not weight bearing. Generally you have to cut through the floor with a concrete saw, dig a trench probably at least a couple of feet deep (check your local building codes) and pour cement. Big back breaking job.

I would add the sheetrock anyway, just so it looks like a nice, finished room.

You will need to frame the inside of the room with 2x4’s and then attach the sheetrock to the wood studs.

 

[HK_USP_45]

Messing with the floor to add a foundation sounds expensive. Do you think there would be an alternative method? Such as making the wall using the metal 2x4s used in commercial construction, then maybe lining it with that hog panel you're talking about? I would think that a lot lighter than concrete. Or do you think the weight of that plus the vault door would still be too heavy?

 

[Outlaw Man]

Just remember, you can use the best fireproofing materials in the world, but as soon as you penetrate that wall/ceiling with something that isn't fire retardant, you've pretty much wasted your money. I'm not saying you can't penetrate it, but be smart about how and how often.

Sheetrock is probably your best bet to fireproof the ceiling. It's relatively lightweight and doesn't burn. You can also get impact resistant sheetrock, but I'm not sure how much more expensive it is.

Ultimately, a determined thief could kick down the sheetrock or whatever you use, but if you invest in an alarm system, they're not going to have nearly enough time to go through the floor, anyway.

 

[horsemen61]

for my needs in the future

 

[BSA1]

Metal studs and two layers of 5/8" Sheetrock is rated for 45 minutes of fire protection in Commercial Building Codes.

Hog wire panels inside the wall would certainly stop all but the most determined thief.

You could look at building a wall using steel panels, maybe 1/4" thick. I recall seeing steel safe rooms from tornados advertised that are assembled in basements. (Google tornado shelters).

The problem with Sheetrock is it gets soft when wet and isn't very strong even when dry. Water and falling debris will quickly collapse a Sheetrock ceiling. They do make water and mold resistant Sheetrock but remember it is not waterproof. Maybe a couple of layers of 5/8" water resistant Sheetrock and hog wire panels would give you a reasonably secure ceiling. I will warn you that 5/8" Sheetrock is heavy. I just finished a room with 1/2" sheet and it was enough of a pita that I am doing my last room with suspended ceiling tiles.

 

[HK_USP_45]

BSA1, the sheetrock is for fireproofing, but it's also to make it look good. I'm not intending it for keeping anyone out. But I want the gun room to have a nice finished look to it. I'm going to paint the walls, and have some nice gun artwork.

 

[leprechaun50]

The hog panels are a very good idea, but be aware that a good bolt cutter will easily cut through them. It will take time though.
Excellent ideas for a secure room.

 

[medalguy]

Don't forget a water level alarm for the sump. That will tell you when the water level gets to a specified point. The problem is the sump pump can quit on you even when you have power so a back-up power system won't help. My experience with a basement.

 

[BSA1]

Actually a very big and good pair of bolt cutters. And arms the size of tree trunks. Ask me how I know.

 

[ngnrd]

You're talking about making major structural changes to your house in order to protect your firearms.

Please, in order to protect your family, and whatever family you eventually sell your home to, hire a Professional Engineer to help you make these decisions.

 

[HK_USP_45]

You're talking about making major structural changes to your house in order to protect your firearms.

Please, in order to protect your family, and whatever family you eventually sell your home to, hire a Professional Engineer to help you make these decisions.

ngnrd -- By structural changes, if you're referring to adding foundation, I'm not planning on doing that. As for the other changes I've discussed, I don't think any of those actually affect the structure. I'm not really comfortable with making changes to the structure, so I wouldn't.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Actually a very big and good pair of bolt cutters. And arms the size of tree trunks. Ask me how I know.

How do you know?

 

[FuzzyBunny]

I have not read the replies so here are the point off the top on my head.

1.Sump pump. Have a deep cell battery alsways on trickle charge and an inverter to back it up. Best case piy onother sump oump and be sure both are alarmed for failure. It would be nice if the dehumidifiers drained into the sump puml someway.

2 Sheet rock. They make a firerock that meets fire code standards.
Ceiling protection. Get a good civil engineer to design the overhead to beyond min standards. No one wants a buring house falling into a basement and crushine everything.

Have emergency lighting installed. I say a guys room and his backup lighting was made of 12v christmas lights. Cheap after christmass.

3 Again get a civil engineer to design one. I like concrete with a stone veneer over it.

Doors Look the CSCO or is it CECO line of security doors and get a wood cover on over over it. Also ALARM it! Have it call you and many private security companies do it so no alarm fees every month. Have it call you if the heat or motion or dampness triggers it.

Tell not one about it! the less that know then the less will talk. og, put cams in there with one visible and one hidden. I have a friend who had a nice safe room for his guns and the cam caught his best buddy in the act on hard drive!

Speaking of HDs have a computer with a backup power supply run the alarms and the computer for days in case of power failure. Also do not make it look like a secure room from the outside! Look at floor pressure detectors to set off the alarm in case the measures fail.

Think of building a safe room for the family right next to it. You can replace items but not people.

 

[BSA1]

Keeping horses, hogs, goats and cattle penned up.

 

[we are not amused]

Keeping horses, hogs, goats and cattle penned up.

I do too, and hog or cattle panels aren't that tough, still it would deter most thieves which is about the best one can do. Nothing is theft proof, if the thief is determined enough and has time to work.
I am some what amused by the OP's original post where he states he lives in a low crime area and isn't worried about a break-in, and then expends so much effort to defeat one.

Still, who am I to make fun of some one else's paranoia, when I have such a list of my own!

While I tend to agree with the thought of worrying about fire, the theft proofing seems overdone. Invest in a good home security system instead, and simply make it difficult and time consuming for thieves to break in, giving the police time to show up.

Unless, what you are really thinking about is a bunker or "Safe Room", in which case you should really get professional advice.

 

[HK_USP_45]

I am some what amused by the OP's original post where he states he lives in a low crime area and isn't worried about a break-in, and then expends so much effort to defeat one.

Still, who am I to make fun of some one else's paranoia, when I have such a list of my own!

While I tend to agree with the thought of worrying about fire, the theft proofing seems overdone. Invest in a good home security system instead, and simply make it difficult and time consuming for thieves to break in, giving the police time to show up.

Unless, what you are really thinking about is a bunker or "Safe Room", in which case you should really get professional advice.

That makes no sense, why would you drop by a thread about making a gun vault, then roll your eyes about someone discussing theft? Isn't the reasons we have gun safes to prevent fire damage and theft? Whether I live in a low crime area or not, I think it warrants discussion, on a thread that is for discussing a gun vault. That's not paranoia it's just common sense.

 

[X-Rap]

In an existing home that you don't wish to spend a great deal of money on or change/add a lot of structural features to. I would opt for two layers of 5/8 sheetrock with 16 ga. flat expanded metal sandwiched between on the ceiling and new wall. Just frame up the wall with 2x6 and anchor well into the floor. Check out some construction salvage stores and look for a good 3' wide fire rated commercial pre hung door in metal or wood composite.
Dehumidifier and sump have been well covered and with that I wouldn't worry to much about covering the exterior block walls.
IMO you are in the same fix as many of us home owners in that we didn't built what we wanted from the ground up. There isn't much you can do to to support and keep your flammable floor from collapsing in a sever fire without some very extensive remodeling.
You could probably use some of the foam form blocks to build the partition wall and with rebar and support from existing foundation get a pretty solid self supporting cast in place wall but I would want to see it the layout first.
Almost anything you do will be better than what you have but it sure won't be a solid cast bank vault without a lot of money.

 

[HK_USP_45]

In an existing home that you don't wish to spend a great deal of money on or change/add a lot of structural features to. I would opt for two layers of 5/8 sheetrock with 16 ga. flat expanded metal sandwiched between on the ceiling and new wall. Just frame up the wall with 2x6 and anchor well into the floor. Check out some construction salvage stores and look for a good 3' wide fire rated commercial pre hung door in metal or wood composite.
Dehumidifier and sump have been well covered and with that I wouldn't worry to much about covering the exterior block walls.
IMO you are in the same fix as many of us home owners in that we didn't built what we wanted from the ground up. There isn't much you can do to to support and keep your flammable floor from collapsing in a sever fire without some very extensive remodeling.
You could probably use some of the foam form blocks to build the partition wall and with rebar and support from existing foundation get a pretty solid self supporting cast in place wall but I would want to see it the layout first.
Almost anything you do will be better than what you have but it sure won't be a solid cast bank vault without a lot of money.

Those are really great points.