so im a pretty new handloader, i reload .223. everything I have found on reloading match grade is questionable. Everyone seems to say "each gun is different, you need to find what works best with your gun." so my BIG QUESTION IS if you can buy factory match grade ammo witch is considered match grade and they ovbiously dont know what your shooting it out of, is still match grade ammo. So why is there not a recipe for handloaders to make match grade ammo. I have yet to find a single thing online that says use this bullet with this ammount of powder this primer and this brass. I know alot of thing such as case prep and such that attribute to a good round, but why cant anyone say... this is how you make match grade .223. you can respond with all things shuch as it depends on climate and humidity and this and that but what really what does a factory do to me able to put a "match grade" stamp on somthing. thanks for you help, i really hope i stir the pot a bit with this one.
making match grade ammo
- Thread starter herinsh1
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Telekinesis
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Match Grade to a factory and Match Grade to a loader can be two separate things. A factory has to use standard lengths and pressures that will reliably cycle semi-autos. Factory Match ammo IMHO means that it is made to tighter tolerances than your run of the mill ammo and will be better based solely on the that fact, not the round being matched to your specific gun. An experienced loader (or one that has just had enough time to play with different loads) can make ammo that will out shoot factory match ammo in his gun and be much cheaper than match ammo at the same time.
Even amongst factory match ammo, a gun will prefer a specific brand and or bullet weight. Its not a "one size fits all" kind of system. Every gun will be different. Even with hand loads, guns will be different. A friend's .300 Win Mag will shoot sub MOA groups with one load and I'd be lucky to get 2" out of my gun, but my chosen load doesn't work in his gun. Its all relative to what your specific gun likes. (Sorry, there's not really a better way to say it without getting into the physics of the ammo and barrel/breech)
Hand loaders can make much more specialized ammo than a factory can, even when including the match grade ammo. For example you can get better accuracy if you load to the lands (actually a bit set back, but you get the idea) and sometimes this length is longer than the gun's mag. This is great if you can single feed rounds into a bolt action while hunting or target shooting, but will not work with a semi auto or even a mag fed bolt gun.
Other examples are using a load book and a set of test rounds using one bullet but several different amounts of powder. I know that some of my hand loads have gone from a 2" group to just under a 1" group (at 100 yds) based on half a grain of powder. No factory is going to retool their production line to add a half grain of powder for the slight benefit that some might see from it.
Edit: Just saw your poll. You can try to split the difference and find one load that will work well in all your guns, but unless you're really lucky, I doubt that you will find one load that will be excellent in ALL your guns. (and of course it gets harder the more guns you're trying to load for. its easier to find a good load for 2 guns than it is to find one that will be great for 30 guns)
Even amongst factory match ammo, a gun will prefer a specific brand and or bullet weight. Its not a "one size fits all" kind of system. Every gun will be different. Even with hand loads, guns will be different. A friend's .300 Win Mag will shoot sub MOA groups with one load and I'd be lucky to get 2" out of my gun, but my chosen load doesn't work in his gun. Its all relative to what your specific gun likes. (Sorry, there's not really a better way to say it without getting into the physics of the ammo and barrel/breech)
Hand loaders can make much more specialized ammo than a factory can, even when including the match grade ammo. For example you can get better accuracy if you load to the lands (actually a bit set back, but you get the idea) and sometimes this length is longer than the gun's mag. This is great if you can single feed rounds into a bolt action while hunting or target shooting, but will not work with a semi auto or even a mag fed bolt gun.
Other examples are using a load book and a set of test rounds using one bullet but several different amounts of powder. I know that some of my hand loads have gone from a 2" group to just under a 1" group (at 100 yds) based on half a grain of powder. No factory is going to retool their production line to add a half grain of powder for the slight benefit that some might see from it.
Edit: Just saw your poll. You can try to split the difference and find one load that will work well in all your guns, but unless you're really lucky, I doubt that you will find one load that will be excellent in ALL your guns. (and of course it gets harder the more guns you're trying to load for. its easier to find a good load for 2 guns than it is to find one that will be great for 30 guns)
FlyinBryan
Member
when you buy match grade ammo, it has just been loaded with premium components (like varget and nosler custom competition 69g bthp, or similar,,,,, they have probably taken more care to ensure that each round is charged more consistently, seated to a more consistent o.a.l. etc, etc, etc.
so in that regard, yes, you can make match grade ammo that can be fired in any rifle, and most likely due to better consistencies, be more accurate than tula and wolf (who will have greater variances, much greater, lol)
so in that regard, yes, you can make match grade ammo that can be fired in any rifle, and most likely due to better consistencies, be more accurate than tula and wolf (who will have greater variances, much greater, lol)
FlyinBryan
Member
you might ask a mod to move this to the handloading forum where everyone is talking about stuff like this. it will get more interest there i 'magine
coloradokevin
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- 3,285
I guess it all depends on your definition of "match grade". You can probably load ammo that will perform well in a wide variety of guns, just as factory "match grade" ammo is built for.
But, for many of us in the rifle shooting world, true match grade ammo consists of the ammunition that is specifically tailored for the gun you intend to shoot it through. In other words, MY match grade ammunition for my .308 Win is a 175grain Sierra Matchking Bullet sitting on top of 44.4 grains of Varget powder, seated to a length of 2.810". In MY gun that load will easily and significantly out-shoot the factory loaded standard in match ammo, Fed. Gold Medal Match.
For me, match ammo is handloaded and tailored to the gun. But, you can certainly use the same components as factory match ammo, and attempt to build a "pretty darn good" load for a variety of rifles. Really, that's all factory match ammo is... pretty darn good for a variety of rifles.
But, for many of us in the rifle shooting world, true match grade ammo consists of the ammunition that is specifically tailored for the gun you intend to shoot it through. In other words, MY match grade ammunition for my .308 Win is a 175grain Sierra Matchking Bullet sitting on top of 44.4 grains of Varget powder, seated to a length of 2.810". In MY gun that load will easily and significantly out-shoot the factory loaded standard in match ammo, Fed. Gold Medal Match.
For me, match ammo is handloaded and tailored to the gun. But, you can certainly use the same components as factory match ammo, and attempt to build a "pretty darn good" load for a variety of rifles. Really, that's all factory match ammo is... pretty darn good for a variety of rifles.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
"Match Grade" merely means a higher degree of precision and uniformity with proven components. People have been working up match grade loads for as long as I can remember, particularly among the bench rest crowd. Heck, Google for Harry Pope and his shooting--and the times when he was active. 
Recommended reading for early efforts are found in FW Mann's "The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target". Another author worth reading for his pre-WW II efforts is Philip Sharpe.
If you want a thread for "how to", do as FlyinBryan suggested and start a thread there.
Recommended reading for early efforts are found in FW Mann's "The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target". Another author worth reading for his pre-WW II efforts is Philip Sharpe.If you want a thread for "how to", do as FlyinBryan suggested and start a thread there.
Herinsh1,
Here is my take. Yes and no. Each rifle is different. But there are some similarities that put most in a certain charge weight range with a specific bullet. Look up load for .223 for NMAR15. Many agree on a defacto standard load. But then most NMAR15's are very similar. So in that case you have a large sample size and are shooting from position. Pretty much they find a load and stick with it. Their game is measured in MOA or 1/2 MOA depending on how you see it.
Bench rest guys tune their loads constantly. They are always trying to optimize as they go. They are running knife edge setups. Their game is measured in thousandths.
What I find funny is one guy who says every rifle is different got offended when I used a different charge weight in my rifle. It is only .3 grains off or so and the guy got huffy. My 700 was mainly stock and the other guys was a GAP.
No one agrees on what match grade is entirely. Ever heard of mexican match? Look at .22lr and see how much ammo testing plays into the game.
What I have found is that my shooting wasn't up to wringing the best possible load out of several close choices. I picked the best as well as I could & kept the load constant. My groups began to shrink. I chose not to induce ammo variables.
So it depend on what kind of match to a degree.
Here is my take. Yes and no. Each rifle is different. But there are some similarities that put most in a certain charge weight range with a specific bullet. Look up load for .223 for NMAR15. Many agree on a defacto standard load. But then most NMAR15's are very similar. So in that case you have a large sample size and are shooting from position. Pretty much they find a load and stick with it. Their game is measured in MOA or 1/2 MOA depending on how you see it.
Bench rest guys tune their loads constantly. They are always trying to optimize as they go. They are running knife edge setups. Their game is measured in thousandths.
What I find funny is one guy who says every rifle is different got offended when I used a different charge weight in my rifle. It is only .3 grains off or so and the guy got huffy. My 700 was mainly stock and the other guys was a GAP.
No one agrees on what match grade is entirely. Ever heard of mexican match? Look at .22lr and see how much ammo testing plays into the game.
What I have found is that my shooting wasn't up to wringing the best possible load out of several close choices. I picked the best as well as I could & kept the load constant. My groups began to shrink. I chose not to induce ammo variables.
So it depend on what kind of match to a degree.
Smokey Joe
Member
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- Jan 2, 2003
- Messages
- 2,617
The answer is...
Herinsch 1--that "It all depends..."
I can make ammo for any centerfire rifle, using high-grade components, and skill and care in assembling them, which will be CAPABLE of greater accuracy than the run-of-the-mill Wall-Mart ammo.
Now, if I have the rifle in question to hand, I can tune that load so that the rifle "likes" it, that is, performs with it at optimum level, and that will be pretty much the best ammo for that rifle. Almost any handloader/target shooter will be able to do the same. As has been pointed out, each individual rifle is different: Even 2 brand-new rifles of the same model, from the same factory, with consecutive serial numbers, may very well have different "preferences" as to their ammo.
Beyond that, of course, it depends on the quality of the rifle in question, AND the skill of the shooter involved. I guaran-durn-tee you that old Uncle George, who shoots a deer once a year, and uses up a box of 20 rounds of Federal Blue Box every 5 years, and who has never cleaned a rifle in his life, will not benefit from the finest ammunition that I, or Hornady Competiton, could produce. He'll kill deer with it, but no more nor less well.
Uncle Virgil, on the other hand, whose rifle has been in the closet since he inherited it from his father, of course will do worse, IF we could persuade him to ever get it out and shoot it. Likewise Uncle Chet, who bought a $50 rifle from the pawn shop last year.
Accuracy in a firearm consists in more than just the grade of ammunition.
Herinsch 1--that "It all depends..."
I can make ammo for any centerfire rifle, using high-grade components, and skill and care in assembling them, which will be CAPABLE of greater accuracy than the run-of-the-mill Wall-Mart ammo.
Now, if I have the rifle in question to hand, I can tune that load so that the rifle "likes" it, that is, performs with it at optimum level, and that will be pretty much the best ammo for that rifle. Almost any handloader/target shooter will be able to do the same. As has been pointed out, each individual rifle is different: Even 2 brand-new rifles of the same model, from the same factory, with consecutive serial numbers, may very well have different "preferences" as to their ammo.
Beyond that, of course, it depends on the quality of the rifle in question, AND the skill of the shooter involved. I guaran-durn-tee you that old Uncle George, who shoots a deer once a year, and uses up a box of 20 rounds of Federal Blue Box every 5 years, and who has never cleaned a rifle in his life, will not benefit from the finest ammunition that I, or Hornady Competiton, could produce. He'll kill deer with it, but no more nor less well.
Uncle Virgil, on the other hand, whose rifle has been in the closet since he inherited it from his father, of course will do worse, IF we could persuade him to ever get it out and shoot it. Likewise Uncle Chet, who bought a $50 rifle from the pawn shop last year.
Accuracy in a firearm consists in more than just the grade of ammunition.
As a practical matter, it's going to depend a bit on what you are loading for. If you are loading for an AR, then you are going to be limited by the length of the magazine in terms of playing with seating depth, so you'll be limited to the amount of tuning that you can do.
Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it, especially if you are loading ammo for multiple firearms. From what I've seen, you get pretty good results by just using good equipment and components.
In every .223/5.56 that I've owned (assuming that the barrel twist was appropriate), I've gotten good results shooting any of the better bullets from Hornady and Sierra.
Like I said, just use good components and don't worry about it, unless you have a specific problem to address.
Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it, especially if you are loading ammo for multiple firearms. From what I've seen, you get pretty good results by just using good equipment and components.
In every .223/5.56 that I've owned (assuming that the barrel twist was appropriate), I've gotten good results shooting any of the better bullets from Hornady and Sierra.
Like I said, just use good components and don't worry about it, unless you have a specific problem to address.
Herinsch1,
Read this site:
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
I am not saying that the info there is "the way it is", but it does explain some of the theory behind what you are wanting to discuss. I like the method
& have gotten some good loads in short order. While I am certain I can develop a better load with a lot more effort OCW narrows down where to be easily. Basically I believe in the method but don't buy into every assertion. Mainly I don't think what is optimal for your rifle will be the same as mine, are all them uncles Smokey Joe mentioned. I also don't think they would be worlds apart either.
I also believe reading the material has some benefit even if you don't use the method.
Read this site:
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
I am not saying that the info there is "the way it is", but it does explain some of the theory behind what you are wanting to discuss. I like the method
& have gotten some good loads in short order. While I am certain I can develop a better load with a lot more effort OCW narrows down where to be easily. Basically I believe in the method but don't buy into every assertion. Mainly I don't think what is optimal for your rifle will be the same as mine, are all them uncles Smokey Joe mentioned. I also don't think they would be worlds apart either.
I also believe reading the material has some benefit even if you don't use the method.
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