Making The Case For Distance Shooting

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How about in a Mall? 100yrds is not so dramatic in a big building. .

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I'm sure this witness would have tried even if he were at 100yrds instead of 30.

I did 100yrds with my 1911 just yesterday. The .45 drops about 10 inches at that distance and it didn't take very much to adjust to it.
 
How about in a Mall? 100yrds is not so dramatic in a big building.
Let's see....

A busy shopping mall, terrorist shooting in to the crowds of people, innocent people running for their lives in all directions....and you trying to make 100 yards shots at the terrorists?


Again, I just can't imagine any realistic scenario that would require the average armed citizen to try long distance shooting with a handgun.
 
If I am 100 yards away from a shooter in any building, I can't be too far away from an emergency exit.

I can think of three malls here in north Texas where you could be 100 yards distant from a shooter and not be near an emergency exit. They are all malls with large central atriums.

Of course, maybe you are only 50 yards distant, which is considered long distance by your average Joe CCW. Here in Texas, that would be more than 3 times the maximum distance for CHL qualification.
 
I can think of three malls here in north Texas where you could be 100 yards distant from a shooter and not be near an emergency exit. They are all malls with large central atriums.

Of course, maybe you are only 50 yards distant, which is considered long distance by your average Joe CCW. Here in Texas, that would be more than 3 times the maximum distance for CHL qualification.
There are other benefits to learning to shoot at longer than "normal" distances.
Before the day I introduced my young friend and his father and sister to 50 yard shooting they considered that 15 yard CHL qualification distance to be quite far to shoot a handgun.

After they had successfully shot a number of magazines at that foot square target at 52 yards we moved forward to 25, 15, 10 and 7 yards, firing several magazines at each distance.
Now shooting at 15, 10 and 7 yards gave them the imperssion that thay were standing on top of the target and their shooting reflected this. I don't recall but maybe a couple misses (of the foot square steel target) at 15 yards and no misses, even when fast firing, at 10 and 7 yards.

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Love the serious expression on that young chaps face!

Two incidents from the past come to mind, 1960s Liverpool, UK, the mud flats around Speak Airport (Now John Lennon Airport) one of the Pistol Clubs I belonged too, had a Colt .45 ACP American Army (MP?) pistol show up, with two magazines, and a white belt?

As it was not registered to anyone, it was kept by some one in the Club, highly illegal at the time, had some excuse or other if it was ever discovered (I left the UK in 1965, no idea what happened after that, many pistols where given up with no questions asked later) Of course this was B/4 guns where subject to demonetization.

We had access to all kinds of Ammo, two of us headed down to the mud flats one day, the River Mersey was a tidal river (Still is) 23' of height of water, huge area of mud flats, One of 45 gal drums floated to a spot, half submerged, we thought about 500 yards out from the sand we were at. Shinny shimmery mud!

Hold over, press, bang! That .45 lobbed those 230g Hardball rounds out, great big splash when the bullet landed, and after a while you could get close, even hit the drum a couple of times.

We had a deal with the Army Corp of Engineers, we supply fuel, they built us a range! On the edge of a worked out stone quarry, now being used to dump garbage, huge hole in the ground, on the weekends it was closed, but our range was open, separate gate.

The rats did not notice that the dark they where in, had light enough for us to see them, I had lots of amazing hits at 50 yd plus, from a Browning Hi Power, in 9mm, and a Chiefs Special in .38 Special Calibre, 1.5 " barrel.

Shift scene to Florida, Palm Bay, 100 yd range, steel gong, 3 shots Glock 17 prone, 3 hits. 127g +P+, BANG.... 2 or 3 seconds, clang. I think the gong was 18' wide, by 30" deep. They were torso hits. You need to know this stuff, to make you a well rounded marksman.
 
A busy shopping mall, terrorist shooting in to the crowds of people, innocent people running for their lives in all directions....and you trying to make 100 yards shots at the terrorists?

How many people do you think will be around him obscuring your shot after he starts shooting ?

Learning how to hit at distance is a valid skill worth pursuing. Way too many people think that 25 yds is the maximum range of any non-scoped handgun. This is total rubbish, but the first time you make a shot at extended range should NOT be in the mall when some terrorist is shooting up the folks.

Go out to the range and see how far away YOU can make center-of-mass hits on a man-size target.

I suspect that you'll be surprised how well you do, as most people are.

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100yds static target at a known distance from the standing position hitting is not a problem. What would be and is problematic is a dynamic/moving/oblique/partially concealed target which would pose a different problem. The nettlesome aspect is dynamics versus static. Most people practice in the static range condition.
 
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: ..................................................
............(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property
(1) If one were to shoot a fleeing prowler, and it turns out the guy didn't have stolen property on his person, it appears to me that one would have committed a serious crime, aside from the serious moral question.

(2) Even if he were trying to escape with property, the legal fees the above action would engender would cost more than the whole outbuilding, never mind the cost of the tools or the insurance deductible.
 
This was fun.
I just bought a SIG P238 .380. Tried it out at 50 yards a couple days ago.
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I have to work on the load (and my shooting), of 50 rounds I missed 10. The load was a slightly loaded down lead bullet.
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I'm real impressed with the little gun. It's replacing a Kel Tec .32, P3AT and Micro Desert Eagle for pocket carry.
It's not reloader friendly though. It throws brass all over and I lose a good bit in the weeds and grass.
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M2 Carbine:

I have a KT P32 for when I am "not packing." How does the SIG P238 compare to the KT and any alloy snubby .38spl/.357mag(0) you may have experience with?
Recoil
Mass
Size
Shootability
Packability (in pocket)​

Do you have a pocket holster lined up?

FTR, here are my "pocket" carry weapons, form smallest to largest:
KT P32 .32ACP
Taurus 651 Protector Titanium .357mag
AMT DAO Backup .45ACP
KT P40 .40S&W​

All can be "pocket" guns, depending on the pocket.





(0) Where I expect the P238 falls, size & capability-wise.
 
M2 Carbine:
I have a KT P32 for when I am "not packing." How does the SIG P238 compare to the KT and any alloy snubby .38spl/.357mag(0) you may have experience with?
Recoil
Mass
Size
Shootability
Packability (in pocket)
Do you have a pocket holster lined up?
Here's my semi auto picket pistols. I have the KT P11 9mm/40S&W but it's just a little big for my pocket carry, as is the S&W J Frames.

Recoil.
I'd say the SIG is the mildest recoiling and the MDE's recoil boarders on being uncomfortable. None are as bad as a small revolver with small grips shooting 38 full loads.

Size. Packability (in pocket)
The size and weight of these guns is no problem for pocket carry and all are a good bit smaller than a J Frame. I've carried them all with no problems at all.

Shootability.
They all are plenty accurate for close up shooting.
For shooting at a little distance the Kel Tec .32 and P3AT have very poor sights. I've never even bothered shooting them at 50 yards.
Personally I prefer the guns have decent sight so I can hit at any distance that the guns are effective. The MDE and SIG have good sights, especially the SIG.

I use and like De Santis pocket holsters and first chance I'll get one for the SIG. In the mean time I'm using the Beretta 21A De Santis holster for the SIG.
 
Shooting at a longer distance is exactly training for both sight and trigger control,however for defense/combat shooting close range practice is better and more practical for the real world.85% of all self defense shootings that occur with both police and civilians happen at less than 10 yards,not 25 or 50 yds.The shootings take less than 3 seconds with 2-4 shots fired.If you do not train for this real world type of defense you in all probability will not survive.
 
Gee, used to be that the FBI and a lot of the larger police departments trained at distances ruuning from 7 to 50 yards. Fifty yards is not a particularly long range, but today some folks consider 50 feet to be beyond anything they have to worry about. As for myself, the Old Fuff learned a long time ago that there is no requirement that one has to limit their skills to a certain (close) range or one way of doing things. If others want to limit what they can do... well I have no objection, but I sure wouldn't want to be in they're situation. :uhoh:
 
I have always shot my service sized handguns at 100yds. Sometimes, I will just pick out a feature on the backstop like a weed or a rock and see how close I can hit to it.
I have backpacked a bit in remote areas, and have always carried a handgun. It always seemed like a useful skill to be able to put rounds on target out to 100yds.
My current favorite backpack pistol is a tokarev 7,62x25. The flat trajectory of that round makes hitting at 100yds pretty easy, but I have also found the 9mm to be pretty easy to hit with at that range.
Nobody says you have to do it standing offhand. I practice using field positions like sitting or prone...positions you might use from cover.
A bad guy would be making a big mistake standing in the open shooting at a person who knows how to make hits at 100yds with a handgun.
 
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