Retention distance

[Deaf Smith]

While we had a interesting thread on I guess videos of point shooting the question came up as to what was the distance of a disarming threat? That is the distance from you a person can disarm you and thus you must hold the gun near your body so it cannot be snatched.

Well I opined it was 3 yards. Yes 9 feet.

Why? Usually a disarm can be utilized in about 1 and 1/2 steps from your opponent. And because some people have long legs and long arms that makes the possible distance about 3 yards (to me anyway.) Not only the attackers long legs and arms but the defenders arms cause the longer they are the farther the weapon can be trusted forward toward the target.

And if you use a form of retention or hip shooting (there IS a bit of difference between the two) you should be able to engage easily out to 9 feet and still keep your gun away from them.

So what are your views on this? What is the distance you should keep your gun near you to thwart an disarm attack?

Deaf

 

[Al Thompson]

Good question. IIRC, Tom Givens makes it a minimum of 6 feet and (at least) a bit more. My sleeve length is 36 inches and someone similar could easily make 8 feet "danger close".

 

[9mmepiphany]

Well I opined it was 3 yards. Yes 9 feet.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but consider this.

Most bedrooms aren't larger than 12' x 14'. That means if you entered a room, encountered someone, and that person weren't standing against an opposite wall, you'd challenged that person with your gun held at Retention

 

[CA Raider]

I train disarms quite a bit. I wouldn't dare try that move if I couldn't get my hand on my opponent's gun super-fast. it's gotta be within reaching distance ... really most likely just within arms length and actually a bit closer because the disarm move requires that you move your hand in a sweeping arc.

disarms are a dangerous thing to try. there's a good chance of that gun going off ... no matter what. if the person doing the disarm does not control the direction of the barrel immediately - they can still get shot quite easily.

CA R

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Retention or hip shooting (there IS a bit of difference between the two)
Yes--that is the problem with calling retention shooting viable out to 9 feet.
To me retention shooting is with the gun very close to your body, as in the #2
IMHO it is meant for 0-2 feet.
Hip shooting can be done out to about 9 feet or so, but anyone can be good at it out to 6 feet or so.
It is very simple to go from hip shooting into retention shooting--and unarmed combat can be incorporated as well--should the bad guy suddenlyclose in.

 

[WNTFW]

Keeping weapons at retention is a good practice. How do you know who is aside/behind you that may become involved as your opponent. Not every situation can be clear cut about who is who.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Keeping weapons at retention is a good practice.
That all depends upon the distance.
Not a very good practice if you have to shoot a bad guy at any distance beyond point blank.
Then again, I should first ask how do you define "retention"??

 

[AOK]

If I'm within arms reach of the assailant I'm fighting from retention. Can it expand beyond that range? Of course, slightly. It depends on the dynamics of the fight. Are there other threats nearby if I am shooting from the #3 position my gun could be grabbed by them from the side ot behind? Is the threat charging me and just a couple steps away from being into contact distance?

Again generally I look at contact distances for shooting from retention. However, the circumstances of the fight will dictate what I need to do to effectively service the threat and maintain rentention firearm.

 

[Ankeny]

I am thinking this distance is about optimal for a disarm:

 

[CA Raider]

"If I'm within arms reach of the assailant I'm fighting from retention"

that's a very good policy.
it will serve you well.
if your retention skills are good and you drill them regularly, there will be very few people who can disarm you, if you "go to retention" straight away. only the very best disarm specialists would have a chance, and that includes extremely few people.

CA R

 

[RBid]

Background: like many here, I have a martial arts background. Primarily Tae Kwon Do, with a bit of grappling work. A byproduct of spending years developing feet as weapons is to define contact distance according to the kick reach. Even if the other person is not likely or able to properly kick, it's reflex for me to treat that space as part of his/her range.

My concept of 'retention' is shooting from count 2.

I would instinctively shoot from around count 2 within kick range, and have moved to create space then transitioned to full extension when confronted within 3 yards.

 

[brownie0486]

Retention distance to me means the firearm has a potential to be grabbed. The event may start at those distances or it may end at those distances.

If it can be grabbed for, it's retention distance.

 

[RBid]

Retention distance to me means the firearm has a potential to be grabbed. The event may start at those distances or it may end at those distances.



If it can be grabbed for, it's retention distance.

I would think, given statements that you've made in various threads, that you would extend retention needs to any loss of weapon security/control, whether grabbed or struck.

 

[Fred Fuller]

"Extension" (Count four if you use a four count draw stroke) is a variable condition, as appropriate. Use whatever the threat dictates...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OZfgutNufU&list=PL206E31448B56F0BA&index=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftC6MXFGxCg&list=PL206E31448B56F0BA&index=23

 

[brownie0486]

If it can be potentially touched, it's a retention situation, whether that's grabbed for or struck, close enough for either.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

My concept of 'retention' is shooting from count 2.

Bingo.

 

[7677]

"Extension" Count four if you use a four count draw stroke and "Retention" is the act of compressing or bringing the weapon close to the body to avoid it from being deflected or grabbed. This should be done with both active and passive threats. Passive threats are doorways and/or objects that you cannot see around and in these type of situations a compressed position should also be utilized. I'm reluctant to set a distance because there are other counter measures in dealing with someone attempting to close the distance attempt a disarm. However, in situations where movement and/or options are limited I agree that 9 feet is would be the distance I would start to compress.

With that said, a person in a fight has no business attempting to draw their weapon in a fight until they have their opponent in a position of disadvantage. At this point, I have found it more effective to draw the weapon to the number two position in the draw stroke and shoot.

 

[Deaf Smith]

With that said, a person in a fight has no business attempting to draw their weapon in a fight until they have their opponent in a position of disadvantage. At this point, I have found it more effective to draw the weapon to the number two position in the draw stroke and shoot.

Uh... Kemosabe,

And if they have their gun leveled at you and indicated they are going to kill you?

See there may be times you don't have the luxury of waiting for a 'position of disadvantage'.

Deaf

 

[7677]

Def...
I can guarantee you if you opponent has covered the distance and the fight has started and your immediate response is to try and draw to your pistol to the retention position a trained person will jam your draw, take your gun from you, and beat you silly with it if your are lucky. The position of advantage means that you have struck attacker, deflected the attack, and are able to draw your weapon with minimal threat of it being jammed.

And if they have their gun leveled at you and indicated they are going to kill you? Then you better hope your opponent has not read the above advice and you're able to close the gap and take his weapon from him, use DAAD, or a distraction combined with movement to reset the OODA loop.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

And if they have their gun leveled at you and indicated they are going to kill you?
Then you are having a bad day--and your options are very limited.
Probably the best thing you can do--if this is an attempted robbery--is to give it up.
A disarming attempt is also possible if he is within arms reach.
If he is not within arms reach he would have to be enticed/tricked so as to get him in close.
Then you better hope your opponent has not read the above advice and you're able to close the gap and take his weapon from him, use DAAD, or a distraction combined with movement to reset the OODA loop.
Exactly.
Of course having a knowledge of self defense has it's virtues.
Only once did I have to disarm a "gunman."
I was a uniformed court officer and he was wearing what appeared to be a federal police type uniform in the court house.
The fact that he had been there all day without anyone asking who he was shows just how complacent we all can become.
His gun was tucked in his waist band and he had no patches which aroused my suspicions.
When I challenged him--with my gun still holstered (big mistake, but I assumed that he was a good guy) ) it was obvious that he was an nut case and I was calling for back up on my radio when he went for his gun.
I was able to close the gap and disarm him of his gun before he could get if fully out of his waistband.
My buddies later asked why I did not shoot him.
The fact was that is was faster--and safer for me--to close the gap and use unarmed combat.
As it turned out his gun was a non firing replica, so all worked out for the best.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Well Matt, if they have indicated they are gonna kill you I doubt it's an attempted robbery.

Reminds me of what Skeeter Skelton wrote. He talked about the possibility of being robber. He said he would resist unless the robber had the drop on him, and even then if the robber indicated he was going to kill him he would go ahead and try to draw (after all, what could he loose.)

Oh, and if any of the readers wonder who this guy Skeeter is (or was), he as the Sheriff of Deaf Smith County, Texas (among alot of other things.)

Now about retention distance. Folks, while I said 9 feet, that was for ME. Due to the fact people have different reflex times, different size, training, etc.. for both the defender and attacker, the distance will be somewhat elastic.

If you are very fast, good reflexes, taller with longer arms and legs, it might be a shorter distance you will allow before pulling your gun back to your hip level. But if you are slow, not much training, short legged, can't retreat, etc.. might want to make that distance needed much longer.

And then about retention .vs. hip shooting. Yes, bringing the gun back to the ribs is the hardest way to get accuracy due to the very poor indexing ability from that position.

Thus unless I'm dancing with the bad guy I prefer hip shooting either with the gun right over the holster or just beyond. Bit better index and less chance of a jam due to the slide of a semi-auto striking cloths or a coat.

True a bit more chance of a grab (just a bit unless you are in the middle of a tango with the BG) but as long as you keep them back just a bit it works.

Deaf

 

[9mmepiphany]

Oh, and if any of the readers wonder who this guy Skeeter is (or was), he as the Sheriff of Deaf Smith County, Texas (among alot of other things.)

I loved reading Skeeter when I was growing up. Much easier read than Jordan, Askins or Cooper

And then about retention .vs. hip shooting. Yes, bringing the gun back to the ribs is the hardest way to get accuracy due to the very poor indexing ability from that position.

Thus unless I'm dancing with the bad guy I prefer hip shooting either with the gun right over the holster or just beyond. Bit better index and less chance of a jam due to the slide of a semi-auto striking cloths or a coat.

True a bit more chance of a grab (just a bit unless you are in the middle of a tango with the BG) but as long as you keep them back just a bit it works.

This is one of the reasons, I've adopted Michael Janich's "Defensive Fence" posture. It offers much faster access to your gun than from "hands at side", appears submissive (non-threatening), and allows a fast transition to a protective/ward off position with the off-hand

 

[Mike1234567]

Good question. IIRC, Tom Givens makes it a minimum of 6 feet and (at least) a bit more. My sleeve length is 36 inches and someone similar could easily make 8 feet "danger close".

Don't forget leaping, or even just leaning forward. For me that means 12+ feet. Arm's length or double-arms-length (his plus mine)... no way!! And that's a good 8 feet!! This doesn't even consider "reaction time".

 

[Matthew Temkin]

And then about retention .vs. hip shooting. Yes, bringing the gun back to the ribs is the hardest way to get accuracy due to the very poor indexing ability from that position.
Thus unless I'm dancing with the bad guy I prefer hip shooting either with the gun right over the holster or just beyond. Bit better index and less chance of a jam due to the slide of a semi-auto striking cloths or a coat.

I am in total agreement with this, which is a form of what has been called 1/2 hip by some.
I am glad to see that you agree that pure "shooting from retention" will not cut it beyond "dancing distance"
While we may disagree that point shooting may be necessary at 3/4 and full extension distances, we are eye to eye on what is needed out to 9 feet or so--which is where the vast majority of armed encounters will take place.

Reminds me of what Skeeter Skelton wrote. He talked about the possibility of being robber. He said he would resist unless the robber had the drop on him, and even then if the robber indicated he was going to kill him he would go ahead and try to draw (after all, what could he loose.)

Sounds like some sage advice to me.

This is one of the reasons, I've adopted Michael Janich's "Defensive Fence" posture. It offers much faster access to your gun than from "hands at side", appears submissive (non-threatening), and allows a fast transition to a protective/ward off position with the off-hand


What has been termed the "fence" position--and it has been preached by many instructors for decades--- is an excellent technique--be it for armed or unarmed situations.
It is also very important to feel very comfortable with one handed shooting-especially for up close--because a free hand is a handy thing to have in a fight.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Besides books I learned the retention position from SouthNarc. Most of my one and two handed shooting came from, again, books, as well as classes from Ray Chapman, Ayoob, Tom Givens, and a few other trainers as well as lots and lots of IPSC/IDPA.

And I use both an airsoft Glock turned into a laser pistol and a AACK unit for practice, so that helps for getting some kind of accuracy from the retention position.

But again, ones limit to different kinds of fire is based on both ones one skill and ability and what they perceive can be done in any given situation.

And yes I know of several default positions for grappling or handling unknown contacts (as SN would say.)

9mm,

I grew up on the writings of Skeeter, Jordan, Cooper, Askins, Cirillo, Elmer Keith, and yes Mas Ayoob. "Me and Joe' were my favorites of Skeeter's writings.

Been a MT fanatic, Ed Mcgivern fanatic, Bill Jordan man, and yea, even 'Shane' style shooting (got to where I could actually hit coke caps at 5 yards from the hip, but that took lots and ammo and time. Add a bit of Steve McQueen to that to!)

But tons of competition (no game guns or game holsters!) showed me that index and trigger control were the key. Many of the top competitors actually don't conscientiously see their sights all because they have their index down so well.

Index is hardest from the retention position due to total lack of any verification of where the muzzle is pointing except by feel and good grip on the gun (the grip and forearm is all that can be used as body position may be twisted.)

As the gun goes to belt level then the body index starts to add some definition so the mind gets some geometrical data.

Then as the arm is moved forward into peripheral vision more geometrical data is added giving better hits.

Full extension without sights (but using the slide as a crude sight) gives even more.

Once the sights come into vision the maximum amount of geometry feedback comes into play. This allows for quite precise hits.

The trick is to use the best feedback method and still do it quickly (which is what flash sight picture was all about with Jeff Cooper.) He used the Weaver stance as his index and insisted on that most defensive encounters.

Fairbran also used a form of body index in his methods (squaring the body to the threat.)

And for that matter go look at Ed McGiven's photos. He always squared up his body to shoot and do his amazing feats (alot of them without sights.)

Index and trigger control. How you achieve that is up to you.

Deaf