Man with CCW arrested for carrying in CO theater

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coloradokevin

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http://www.9news.com/news/article/281079/339/Man-who-brought-gun-into-theater-defends-choice

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/man-arrested-gun-brought-theater-16887685#.UBw0HY73AzU

Note, here are some things to consider about Colorado law:

1) A CCW permit allows carrying into places even if they are signed against guns, just so long as there isn't an existing federal prohibition on that type of carry, or permanent weapons screening stations in place. Nevertheless, a property owner still has the right to exclude someone who wants to carry a gun.

2) The person in this incident holds a valid CCW permit.

3) Some jurisdictions have (thus far) been able to prevent open carry here in Colorado. Since this guy's gun was spotted, that might be the charge he's facing.

Regardless, it doesn't sound like this guy did anything wrong, and it bothers me to see that he was arrested for lawfully carrying a gun.
 
...he was arrested for lawfully carrying a gun.
[strike]Well... they are charging him with "possession of a deadly weapon", which obviously seems to conflict with any form of legal carry. I'm sitting here in Colorado, right now in possession of a deadly weapon. Am I committing the same violation? I'm not in Thornton though, but I find myself there often enough.
[/strike]
Troubling. I hope the legislature does nothing in reaction to this.

I hope he complete gets out of all the legal entanglements here and I'd really like to see the police department publicly state that, although the timing of this incident was the cause of their hasty actions, Mr. Mapes did absolutely nothing illegal.

ETA: I thought I read the weapons charge in this article, but I don't find it now: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/law...claims-he-has-valid-concealed-weapons-permit/
 
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I just jumped on here to see if this was brought up. I just don't see how he was legally arrested. According to the link above he was arrested on Section 38-237(b)(1).

As for the open carry, which he said he was doing, I don't see anything against that either, based on his location.

Sec. 38-241. - Prohibition on the open carrying of firearms.

The City of Thornton hereby prohibits the open carrying of a firearm, as defined in Section 38-237 of the Code, in any city building or in or upon any city property including but not limited to parks, open spaces or trails that exist within the City of Thornton and that have a sign posted at the entrance to any city building or city property informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in such building or area.


Sec. 38-237. - Dangerous weapons.

(a)
Definitions. The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this section and applicable to this chapter, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this subsection, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
Air gun means any instrument, toy or weapon commonly known as an air gun, air rifle, pellet gun, BB gun, paint pellet gun, mechanical gun, blowgun, or spring piston operated gun, which requires air to propel a BB, pellet, dart or other projectile, but excluding children's plastic toy guns which shoot or project plastic or rubber darts and excluding gas guns, as defined in subsection 38-239(a).

Artificial knuckles means an object held in the palm of the hand which is designed to increase the impact of a blow from the fist or hand in which it is held.

Bludgeon means any type of mace, club or cudgel made of any material which may have one end loaded and/or that is worn, altered or marked by "gang signs" in such a manner that it is evident the club or cudgel is not intended to be used for its original purpose. The term bludgeon includes, but is not limited to, a police style straight and side-handle batons and collapsible batons.

Bow means a flexible strip of wood or other material bent by a string or other material stretched between its ends for the purpose of launching or propelling an arrow or other projectiles.

Chemical agents means a chemical or partial chemical liquid propelled by means of aerosol or pump devices which by the composition of such liquid temporarily disables by irritation, inflammation or other discomfort. Chemical agents shall include, but are not limited to, "mace" or any "oleoresin capsicum" based compound.

Crossbow means a stocked fired bow that launches or propels an arrow or other projectiles via a trigger mechanism.

Dangerous weapon means any artificial knuckles, bow, crossbow, machine gun, short rifle, or shotgun, knife, nunchaku, spikes, throwing star, as defined in this subsection, or other weapon, device, instrument, material or substance, whether animate or inanimate, which, in the manner it is used, is intended to produce bodily injury.

Firearm means any handgun, automatic, revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, or other instrument or device capable of or intended to be capable of discharging bullets, cartridges or other explosive charges, excluding gas guns, as defined in Section 38-239(a).

Handgun means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged, the length of the barrel of which, not including any revolving, detachable, or magazine breech, does not exceed twelve inches.

Knife means any dagger, dirk, knife or stiletto with a blade, as measured from the hilt, over three and one-half inches in length, regardless of the manner in which it is used or intended to be used, or any other dangerous instrument capable of inflicting, cutting, stabbing, or tearing wounds and which, in the manner it is used, is intended to produce bodily injury.

Machine gun means any firearm, whatever its size and usual designation, that shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

Nunchaku means an instrument consisting of two or more sticks, clubs, bars or rods to be used as handles, connected by a rope, cord, wire or chain.

Short rifle means a rifle having a barrel less than 16 inches long or an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Short shotgun means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels less than 18 inches long or an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Slingshot means a hand held device manually drawn or held with a band which is attached to arms or attachment points for propelling stones or other projectiles.

Spikes means any device composed of leather or other material which has sharp metal points, regardless of length or width, protruding from the leather and is capable of being worn on or around any part of the human body; but does not include any item used in commonly recognized sporting activities, such as, but not limited to, golf shoes or cleated football or baseball shoes.

Throwing star means a metal disc having sharp radiating points or any disc-shaped bladed object which is designed to be thrown by hand.

(b)
Unlawful acts.
(1)
It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly possess on or about the person or within such person's immediate reach any dangerous weapon.

(2)
It shall be unlawful for an adult to knowingly possess an air gun, bludgeon, chemical agent, or slingshot if used in a manner intended to produce bodily injury. It shall also be unlawful for any juvenile to knowingly possess a chemical agent if used in an offensive manner intended to produce bodily injury.
(3)
It shall be unlawful for any juvenile to knowingly possess on or about said person or within said person's immediate reach any dangerous weapon or handgun. It is also unlawful for any juvenile to possess, on or about said person or within said person's immediate reach, any air gun, bludgeon or slingshot. Provided, however, it shall not be unlawful for a juvenile to possess an air gun, bludgeon or slingshot if the juvenile is under the immediate and continuous supervision of a parent or adult who has legal custody; or a grandparent who has been given control of any juvenile by such juvenile's parent or adult who has legal custody over such juvenile and such possession occurs on the property of such parent or adult who has legal custody of the juvenile.
(4)
It shall be unlawful for a parent of any juvenile to knowingly allow such juvenile to possess any dangerous weapon, as defined herein, or any air gun, bludgeon or slingshot, unless under the immediate and continuous supervision of a parent or adult who has legal custody; or an adult who has been given control of any juvenile by such juvenile's parent or adult who has legal custody over such juvenile.
(5)
It shall be unlawful for any person to display or flourish a dangerous weapon, firearm, air gun, bludgeon, chemical agent or slingshot in a manner calculated to alarm another person.
(6)
It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly supply, sell, loan or furnish any air gun, slingshot, firearm, prohibited weapon, or dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 38-239(a) and subsection (a) of this section to:
a.
Any person under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of a controlled substance, as defined in C.R.S. § 12-22-303(7); or
b.
A firearm other than a handgun, to any juvenile unless the juvenile is accompanied by a parent or an adult who has legal custody; over such juvenile.
(7)
It shall be unlawful for any person to possess a dangerous weapon, as defined in subsection (a) of this section, or a prohibited weapon, as defined in Section 38-239(a), or a firearm, while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or of a controlled substance as defined in C.R.S. § 12-22-303(7). Possession of a concealed handgun permit, issued pursuant to applicable provisions of state law, is not a defense to a violation of this section.
(c)
Affirmative defenses. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection (b)(1) of this section that:
(1)
A person is in a private automobile or other mode of vehicular transportation and is transporting a dangerous weapon to or from such person's business, or a place for use in lawful hunting activity or an authorized hunter's safety course, or a firearm safety course, or to or from lawful demonstrations or exhibitions or organized competitions for the use of such weapons at any lawful firing range, or is being transported for the purpose of sale or repair to or from a place of sale or repair, and such dangerous weapon is unloaded and in a closed carrying case or other such device. For purposes of this subsection, a weapon is loaded if there is a cartridge or ammunition in any part of the weapon. In the case of a juvenile, the affirmative defenses contained in this subparagraph (c)(1) shall only apply if the juvenile is accompanied by a parent or adult who has legal custody; or an adult who has been given control of any juvenile by such juvenile's parent or an adult who has legal custody over such juvenile, except a juvenile may possess an unconcealed baseball bat, hockey stick, or other like instrument or equipment for use in a commonly recognized sporting activity;
(2)
A manager or other designated owner's agent or employee is lawfully in control of a bona fide business establishment, as defined in Section 38-1, is actually on the premises of that establishment and is acting in the course and within the scope of such employee's assigned duties;
(3)
A person is employed by or under contract with the owner, owner's agent or a person in lawful control of a bona fide business establishment or public or private facility, as defined in Section 38-1, when the purpose of such employment or contract is to provide security or protection to that business or public or private facility and such person so employed or under contract is actually physically present on the premises at which such person is employed or to which such person is under contract;
(d)
Exceptions. The prohibitions contained in subsection (b)(1) of this section shall not apply to:
(1)
A person in such person's own dwelling or place of business or on real property owned and under such person's control.
(2)
A mobile guard or courier guard, as defined in Section 38-1, in uniform, employed or engaged in the business of making deliveries or pickups of goods, wares, currency or other items of value and who, in the course of such employment or business activity, walks, drives or rides from one location to another when such person is either in a private automobile, truck or other private means of conveyance or when such person is upon the property of another who has given authorization for the person so employed to be in possession of or to carry an openly displayed dangerous weapon. This subsection (d)(2) shall also constitute an exemption for Section 38-241 herein. This category will not provide an exemption when such person is not acting within such person's official employment capacity, or on the property of a person or entity who has not authorized the carrying of such openly displayed dangerous weapon.
(3)
A mobile guard or roving patrol guard, as defined in Section 38-1, in uniform, carrying an openly displayed dangerous weapon, when in uniform and when actually acting in the capacity of providing guard, security, watch or patrol services. Such person is only exempted from prohibitions in subsection (b)(1) of this section when such person is either in a private automobile, truck or other private means of conveyance or when such person is upon the property of another person or entity who has given authorization for the mobile guard or roving patrol guard to be in possession of or to carry an openly displayed dangerous weapon. This subsection (d)(2) shall also constitute an exemption for Section 38-241 herein. This category will not provide an exemption when such person is on publicly owned property, unless such person is acting within said person's scope of employment, or the exemption will not apply if such person is not acting within said person's scope of employment or is on property of a person or entity who has not authorized the carrying of such openly displayed dangerous weapon.
(4)
A person issued a written permit to carry a concealed handgun issued by any sheriff authorized to issue such permits within the state and the carrying of such weapon is within the terms of such permit.
(5)
A person carrying a knife or firearm as defined in Section 38-237 in a private automobile or other private means of conveyance for hunting or for lawful protection of such person's or another's person or property while traveling into, through, or within a municipal, county, or city and county jurisdiction, regardless of the number of times the person stops in a jurisdiction.
(6)
The prohibition contained in subsection (b)(3) of this section shall not apply to a juvenile who possess a firearm during attendance at a hunter's safety course, or a firearm safety course at an authorized firing range, engaged in hunting with a valid license or traveling with an unloaded handgun to or from such activities. For purposes of this subsection, unloaded means no cartridges in the chamber or cylinder and ammunition for the handgun is not in the possession of or in the immediate reach of the juvenile.
 
I think it is as much a test of the law as what the carrier did, even more since OC is legal.
The big city PD's and their mayors and chiefs will be pushing the envelope now. If there is a chance to elevate the norm into a high profile gun incident they will be doing it.
I don't have the story right at hand but did anybody see the story on the guy living in his car in San Fransisco? Had four guns and you'd think they busted some cartel or something. If you want attention with regards to a gun, the media and politicians will be happy to oblige.
 
Hopefully he sues the arresting officer and the department for violating his civil rights, and the theatre into bancruptcy. It's the only thing they understand...
 
That would be the best outcome but today might not be the best time to put gun issues in front of some knee jerk jury or judge. I know the press loves it.
 
Let's see, a gun in a theater in CO. What does that bring to mind? Hmm.

Is there a law against being stupid in public. If there is, he violated it. What did he think was going to happen?

John
 
Let's see, a gun in a theater in CO. What does that bring to mind? Hmm.

Is there a law against being stupid in public. If there is, he violated it. What did he think was going to happen?

John

Possibly he was concerned about a copycat killer, or he just normally carried and happened to got to a theater that day. Should he also not own certain guns for the same reason of it bringing something else to mind?
 
JohnBT:

Prior to this shooting I would carry in theaters (just like I do elsewhere). After this shooting I'm carrying in theaters, just like I did elsewhere. How is that looking for trouble?

Should I stop carrying just because someone decided to act stupid with a gun? Honestly, the actions of the theater shooting seem like a good reason to carry more often, rather than less often.
 
JohnBT: Have you looked at yahoo news lately? CLEARLY there is no law against being stupid!
That said, I don't believe this man was stupid. I originally thought so, but then it appears the inital reporting may have been less than fully factual and accurate (imagine that!). A bit injudicious, perhaps, but if he was indeed exercising a legal right (which it appears he will have to PROVE in court as an affirmative defense against 'brandishing'), he was NOT being stupid... As Judge BE Legg said very recently, the existence of the right is all the reason he needs.
 
His CHP has nothing to do with it. One does not need a CHP to open carry. The recent tragic shooting has heightened awareness, therefore this guy walks in by himself - alone - with an exposed firearm. Real bright. The excuse that he has pushed this envelope previously has no value. This was an extremely dumb action. It was a slap in the face to those of us who use our CHP lawfully - ie 'concealed'. That is the kind of person who undermines - perhaps intentionally - the rights of all of us.
 
I disagree. This guy's actions were not stupid...the woman that called 911, and the cops REaction are what is stupid.

I propose: Someone driving a semi down the highway is texting and runs into a school bus full of kids...14 die, 34 others are injured..the school bus driver is pregnant and miscarrages...

Where is the outrage at texting while driving?

Oh yes, this was an EVIL gun!!!! Ohhhh horrors. It might just jump out a hurt someone on it's own...quit listening to the anti's and believing their propaganda
 
I disagree. This guy's actions were not stupid...the woman that called 911, and the cops REaction are what is stupid.

I propose: Someone driving a semi down the highway is texting and runs into a school bus full of kids...14 die, 34 others are injured..the school bus driver is pregnant and miscarrages...

Where is the outrage at texting while driving?

Oh yes, this was an EVIL gun!!!! Ohhhh horrors. It might just jump out a hurt someone on it's own...quit listening to the anti's and believing their propaganda
even talking on a phone while driving a semi will get the truckdriver a $1600.00 fine! and thats everywhere , texting can be higher in some states , and if you kill someone you will go to jail , and you will never drive a truck again ! oh and jail where you killed someone not your home state ! they keep us trucker on a short leash. so trust me there is alot of outrage over that !!! as for this guy hope he's got a good lawer , he gets to fight cityhall , not sure how cityhall thinks it trumps the 2nd amendment,
 
comus3 said:
I'm pretty outraged at texting while driving


I'm pretty out raged as well; it only takes about 3 hours to buy a 8,000lb missle...


pretty sure if someone wanted to they could take out more than 20 or 40 people, with a HD2500 Duramax 4x4. If I was the guy arrested I'd contact the ACLU, his civil liberties were viloated... if the ACLU would represent me I'd sue them too.
 
Having a tin ear to how people are likely to perceive what you say and do is not a sign of intelligence. He could easily have concealed carry and been armed and discreet. He chose not to. Remind me why OC is such a great idea.
 
This is straight from the horses mouth. He posted in our local 9news website, in the comments section, that ran the story about him.

Due to legal matters still in process, I’d normally not respond. However, due to brevity the article & video leaves a few key things not addressed. Since they have been stated by myself with attorney present during the interviews, I’ll restate here to hopefully put to rest some pointless debate.

I carried openly principally because its 90-100 almost every day right now and 70-80 at night, that gun (or any full size semi-auto pistol) is ill-concealable with anything less than a jacket. Meaning it would stick out the bottom or have a very conspicuous bulge in my clothing that makes it obvious I am carrying. Your right to open carry is based on the 19th century notion that only bad guys hide their weapons. Aside from permitted carry, this is still true, virtually no criminal will holster carry in front of you – because they l
ose surprise. Also, open carry is a deterrent; concealed carry only allows you to respond to an attack. The entire “be sensitive & leave it at home” PC influence is just a variation of a “no guns” attitude – which contributed to the carnage at Century on July 20th. Your phobias are your issue, my carrying is an acknowledgement that the police are most often not present at the start of a criminal event and I am responsible for my own protection.

Gander Mountain is 100-150 feet from Cinnebarre, Holmes bought at least one of his guns there. Just perhaps, while formulating his plan he saw someone like I carrying and going into Cinnebarre – I know others who do since they have allowed firearms there. Seeing this, Holmes may have written that off as a target and chose instead a place that had a posted “no guns” policy knowing that reduced the chances someone present would be armed to fight back. Most important: the shooting happened at Century –Cinnemar; not Cinnebarre.

Armed response

It’s really all moot, none of us were there, but there is no doubt that some of the men present who sacrificed themselves to save their girlfriends had the guts to act, if they had the means, to fight back. People will always debate this, because its natural to want to change what happened.

If someone open carried into the theatre and Holmes saw them, he’d perhaps have changed his plans though this might only have meant going next door. Among hundreds of patrons, it’s unlikely he’d be able to follow them to know where they sat.

Holmes just bought his firearms, and by all accounts had little to no practice. There is no evidence that he was capable of well aimed return fire, in fact the high injury vs fatality ratio indicates he was just spraying bullets or missing targets and hitting others.

Body armor reduces the lethality of a hit, it doesn’t reduce the impact much. Body hits on armor break ribs, bruise and knock the wind out of you. Like being hit with a bat or hammer; multiple successive hits would have knocked him down.

Tear gas is an inconvenience, not an incapacitant. When your choice is wiping snot, or fighting back against a deadly attack – you won’t notice the snot. Plus if a person was acting from the outset of the attack, the gas area would be so limited as to be a non-factor.

Lighting in a “dark theatre” is like a half moon night. Plenty of visibility to see a lone gunman standing in the aisle and his muzzle flashes. On the other hand, the armed responder’s first shots will have surprise – a couple of hits stunning him, and if that person is within close enough range, use that to close on him and continue to hit him till they can get close enough to ensure an incapacitating shot (non armored area).

The gunman was in a theater, a place designed where every seat in the house has an unobstructed view to the screen. Holmes was standing near the screen. An armed responder has the potential within a few steps from any point to have line of fire over the heads of people in the rows in front of them – who will all be getting as low & small as possible anyway.

An armed responder at Century would have saved lives. How many depends on where they were when the first shot came out (Homes fired a round from shotgun into the ceiling. A competent CCW holder within their “point blank” range (for this purpose defined as all hits on torso sized area, for me I consider this to be 60 feet/20 yards) could have had their gun out and firing back while Holmes was tossing the gas. Likely he would have been the only casualty if so.

If they were further away and needed to close or move to get a clear shot, then Holmes would have had time to empty his shotgun into the crowd; statistically with the number of patrons he had a 1-2% chance of incapacitating one armed responder randomly placed among them. Armed responder has him cold as he transitions from shotgun to rifle, easily 3-5 shots unopposed. If armed responder is wounded, but gets off at least one shot, let alone a hit, Holmes is now acting defensively if not actively leaving the scene.

Any way you slice it, an armed response would have altered the outcome. There is no scenario other than an anti-gun phobic’s that it would have made it worse. Once he knows he’s under attack, Holmes has to focus on his attacker rather than more victims - lives are saved

The point is, Century made the law abiding into defenseless targets – there were no police or guards there to compensate for this and has been pointed out, it’s too expensive to do so. I will never patronize their business; their policy was Holmes’ accomplice. Cinnebarre however, I will; assuming everything gets settled here. They respect my right to defend myself and others from criminal assault. If you don’t like that fact that someone in the audience at Cinnebarre may be carrying, go to Century – you’ll feel safer, right?

Of course, that’s the problem. You may feel safer, but you won’t be. That’s the difference in mindset between gun owners and those with a bias against lawful gun ownership.
 
"If you don’t like that fact that someone in the audience at Cinnebarre may be carrying, go to Century – you’ll feel safer, right?

Of course, that’s the problem. You may feel safer, but you won’t be. That’s the difference in mindset between gun owners and those with a bias against lawful gun ownership. "

My son is also against CC, I couldn't understand WHY I could not convince him using these same arguments posted all over here.

THEN IT CAME TO ME! He had NEVER been in a situation where he NEEDED a gun...whereas I had a couple guys trying to break in my bedroom window at 2am...

When the lives of you & your family hang in the balance, you finally understand & are grateful for that gun!!
 
This is straight from the horses mouth. He posted in our local n the comments section, that ran the story about him.

That's a whole lot of gibberish for something purported to be "straight". I live in the same area and experience the same 100 degree+ heat and have no prob carrying. Why doesn't he simply buy a smaller pistol? He can afford regular cinema attendance - he can afford a suitable pistol to replace his brick. Moreover he states the Aurora incident would have been dealt with if CHPs in the mix. He lives in the metro area and knows better than that. Aurora is gang-infested and it is my educated guess that the majority carry - with or without a CHP. It was crowded with armed people. There was just no way to know what was going on or stop the shooter. He knows that. I believe this guy has done a real disservice to all of us who carry legally and prudently.
 
That's a whole lot of gibberish for something purported to be "straight". I live in the same area and experience the same 100 degree+ heat and have no prob carrying. Why doesn't he simply buy a smaller pistol? He can afford regular cinema attendance - he can afford a suitable pistol to replace his brick. Moreover he states the Aurora incident would have been dealt with if CHPs in the mix. He lives in the metro area and knows better than that. Aurora is gang-infested and it is my educated guess that the majority carry - with or without a CHP. It was crowded with armed people. There was just no way to know what was going on or stop the shooter. He knows that. I believe this guy has done a real disservice to all of us who carry legally and prudently.
Your post saddens me. If you claim to be local, then how did you miss the theater shooting interviews on TV every two seconds. To infer that the theater was packed with gangbangers and like, illegally carrying, which included three servicemen, tons of innocent people and tons of young kids, is ridiculous at best.

Good lord! Sounds like you want to drive over, dress the man mentioned in this thread, pick out a gun for him and then explain how your values are better and/or more important than his. Wow! As a CO CCH permit holder, please don't ever speak on my behalf. Ever.
 
Sure he could carry a smaller pistol. Can't imagine why anyone would want to switch to a smaller gun after the theater shooting. It made me seriously consider upping caliber and size, not downsizing.
 
Why is it that when a good guy raises up on his hind legs and acts the man, rabble try to cut him down to be food like themselves?

I used to be food until a gun was pressed against my head in a parking lot decades ago. Innocence died that night and I began my ascent to manhood.

My personal experience with the Thornton PD after my first wife was sexually assaulted by a health care provider there is much less than satisfactory.
 
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