Manual safety: A big deal?

[trackskippy]

What I find entertaining with these complaints about the Glocks grip angle is, that the difference between it, and most others, is very small. It basically mimics a 1911 with an arched MSH and a short trigger.

And in case you weren't aware, the military went from the flat MSH and long trigger on the 1911's to the arched, because of complaints that the guns didnt naturally point right, and switching to the arched housing corrected that. And now most all of the current 1911 wiz kids insist on a flat MSH and long trigger. Wonderment, eh?

Yea, if all you know is one type of gun or grip, then that is all you know, and any of the others will likely feel a tad off, at least until you bother to try different things and figure them out. And the more you try and learn, so your brain knows the guns, the problems magically go away.

These days, since I carry Glocks, I shoot them the most, and a couple of times a week. But I also mix things up and randomly shoot 1911's, SIG's, Beretta's, HP's, and a few others along with the Glocks, and randomly dryfire two or three of each every day, and I can easily pick any of them up and shoot them, without a thought about what it is Im shooting at the moment. They all shoot where Im looking on the targets, be it with the sights or just pointing the gun.

All the complaints about minor differences in ergos, controls, etc, between any of them, is simply a lack of experience with whats being complained about. Its a simple fix too, but I guess its just easier to complain.

 

[jmr40]

I have several Glocks and like them. If carried in a holster that covers the trigger I have no issue with no safety. But there are times when I don't carry, or store guns in a holster. Sometimes in a belt pack, chest pack, or stored in the glove box or night stand. I carry a handgun when hiking and camping, usually in the belt or chest pack. I'm not comfortable with a Glock with a chambered round inside of my sleeping bag.

In those situations I kept an empty chamber in those situations when carrying a Glock. But now prefer a gun with a manual safety for those uses. I still have 3 Glocks, but I've also added 3 Smith & Wesson M&P's with a safety and 3 Sig's with manual safeties. A 365, M17, and M18.

The Grip angle is between your ears. It is something that is easy to get used to for anyone willing to try.

 

[Slamfire]

Manual safety: A big deal?​

Only to those who fall into one of the two camps:

- Those that believe handguns without manual safeties are begging for a negligent discharge and are the primary firearms that contribute to the majority of all negligent discharges,

- Those that believe that, for whatever reason, a competent gun owner cannot train enough for the inevitable occurrence of not being able to take his/her handgun off-safe in a lethal force encounter.

I would say that in my experience, the majority of those that argue against carrying a handgun with a manual safety seem to be Glock owners/fans. And many who argue for the manual safety seem to have come up as 1911 shooters, and cannot understand what all the fuss is about. I'm over it.

I am against the current crop of striker fired pistols. These pistols do not have an external safety, and I consider them safer than a cocked and locked 1911, and a Glock:

This one too

First shot is a long double action pull. Subsequent shots a crisp single stage pull. No external safeties, just a decocker.

 

[trackskippy]

And the Walter in your pic is in the condition that many people, under stress, or lack of attention, have gone ahead and reholstered, or tried to, and sometimes with a bad result. By the way, why is yours cocked in the pic? Did you forget to decock right away as you should with that type of gun?

While some seem to think that safeties add another level of safety, and they might well, in some respects, but they also add another level of complexity, and if youre carrying a gun that has them, you need to be as aware of that, as someone who carries a gun that lacks additional safeties.

And everyone who carries or handles any gun should be treating it as if it had no safety and was ready to go.

 

[Slamfire]

By the way, why is yours cocked in the pic? Did you forget to decock right away as you should with that type of gun?

Took the magazine out, placed it on a bench, and cocked it so the hammer was visible.

Did'nt know it was illegal. Guess I am going to jail for being a repeat offender.

 

[CoalTrain49]

It took us 28 posts to get to the Sig P series TDA pistols that don't have a safety. Nope, not a single one anywhere. Yet they were thousands sold to military and LE before Glock flooded the market with lower cost polymer striker pistols. Currently the military is buying Sig polymer strikers for less than $200 a copy. How's that for an inexpensive solution to giving every combat troop a sidearm? The only problem was the 320 didn't have a safety so Sig put one on it. Imagine that. The military didn't think it was safe until it had a manual safety.

So the polymer striker concept is a good one for budget reasons. Might not be such a great choice for safety however because Sig is getting their pants sued off by users who have had a discharge without the trigger being engaged. I think Glock went down that road also with the well known Glock leg law suits.

If you happened to be concerned about a manual safety there are plenty of options out there. Personally I don't like safeties on a carry pistol. My solution was a TDA Sig P. I also like the HK LEM. I have both.

Never owned a Glock but I understand they're fine pistols if you can wrap your head around a striker with no manual safety.

 

[jar]

If there is a version available that offers a manual safety I'll purchase that version over the same pistol without a safety.

 

[CoalTrain49]

This is very true even with single action hammer fired pistols with two safeties. The US Army made everyone carry the M1911 with an empty chamber because a few GI's that didn't use their heads had accidental/negligent discharges.

I don't think that was the reason. I think military doctrine has always been condition 3 from the beginning. It's a horse pistol by design.

SECTION III MOUNTED• 38. GENERAL RULES.—The following movements are executed as when dismounted: RAISE PISTOL, RETURN PISTOL, CLOSECHAMBER, TO FIRE THE PISTOL. The mounted movements maybe practiced when dismounted by first cautioning, "Mounted position." The right foot is then carried 20 inches to the right and the left hand to the position of the bridle hand. Whenever the pistol is lowered into the bridle hand, the movement is executed by rotating the barrel to the right. Grasp the slide in the full grip of the left hand, thumb extending along the slide, back of the hand down, barrel down and pointing upward and to the left front. FM 23-35, 1940.

 

[12Bravo20]

I don't think that was the reason. I think military doctrine has always been condition 3 from the beginning. It's a horse pistol by design.

SECTION III MOUNTED• 38. GENERAL RULES.—The following movements are executed as when dismounted: RAISE PISTOL, RETURN PISTOL, CLOSECHAMBER, TO FIRE THE PISTOL. The mounted movements maybe practiced when dismounted by first cautioning, "Mounted position." The right foot is then carried 20 inches to the right and the left hand to the position of the bridle hand. Whenever the pistol is lowered into the bridle hand, the movement is executed by rotating the barrel to the right. Grasp the slide in the full grip of the left hand, thumb extending along the slide, back of the hand down, barrel down and pointing upward and to the left front. FM 23-35, 1940.

Actually it was for both reasons.

 

[Slamfire]

I don't think that was the reason. I think military doctrine has always been condition 3 from the beginning. It's a horse pistol by design.

SECTION III MOUNTED• 38. GENERAL RULES.—The following movements are executed as when dismounted: RAISE PISTOL, RETURN PISTOL, CLOSECHAMBER, TO FIRE THE PISTOL. The mounted movements maybe practiced when dismounted by first cautioning, "Mounted position." The right foot is then carried 20 inches to the right and the left hand to the position of the bridle hand. Whenever the pistol is lowered into the bridle hand, the movement is executed by rotating the barrel to the right. Grasp the slide in the full grip of the left hand, thumb extending along the slide, back of the hand down, barrel down and pointing upward and to the left front. FM 23-35, 1940.

I assume the 1940 instructions start with no round in the chamber but magazine in gun? If so, there had been enough accidental discharges, the 1911 was being carried nothing in the chamber. But back in 1913:

the Army mode of carry was: round in the chamber hammer down. Pistol in the flap holster.

 

[trackskippy]

Took the magazine out, placed it on a bench, and cocked it so the hammer was visible.

Did'nt know it was illegal. Guess I am going to jail for being a repeat offender.

I was just asking as you have the SIG in its proper "safe" condition, the Walther isnt. None of the others are either, except maybe the 1911, cant tell there.

As far as thumb cocking a DA revolver, once you learn to shoot them properly, I never really saw the point of even having a SA sear on the gun. I have a bunch of them and I cant remember the last time I ever shot one anything but DAO. But, thats me.

And since this seems to be about safeties and added safety, any of those revolvers in that condition, are not safe in any kind of stressful or confrontational situation, or even just being held/handled. The guns should be in a hammer down condition. Pics aside of course, if you like taking the pics that way, but anything else....

Same goes for the DA autos. They should be instinctively decocked at the first opportunity after being fired, if youre not going to continue right away.

Or, at least they should be if youre serious about realistic safety. An added manual safety doesn't make the gun any safer if you arent using it properly.

And something else to consider here as far as manual safeties go, once that gun in unholstered or brought to ready, all the safeties should be off/disengaged and the gun ready to go. Which basically negates the arguments against the guns that dont have them.

Where things tend to go south here too is, is on reholstering. Safety or not, you need to treat that gun as if it has no safety what so ever, and reholster it appropriately. That safety wont keep you safe if you forget to use it, and/or arent paying attention.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I assume the 1940 instructions start with no round in the chamber but magazine in gun? If so, there had been enough accidental discharges, the 1911 was being carried nothing in the chamber. But back in 1913:

the Army mode of carry was: round in the chamber hammer down. Pistol in the flap holster.

So it might have changed due to ND's in condition 2. I was in the Navy and C3 was the rule on watch. I've read that C1 was common in Vietnam but IDK. I think it's safer than a Glock but that's just my opinion. Now everyone has a Glock so it must be l'ordre du jour just like C1 and 1911's.

 

[Mike J]

I own pistols that have safeties. I own pistols that don't have safeties. I am fine either way. My opinion is that everyone should get whatever type of pistol they prefer. My opinion is that whichever type of pistol you choose you should take the time necessary to learn to operate its manual of arms properly.
One of the things I like about getting a new gun is getting to learn a new manual of arms, learn how it operates, check out something different. Never owned a Glock but I like them.

 

[LocoGringo]

How much do you plan on training and practicing with your pistol?

I carry a Glock professionally and I carry/use a 1911/2011 for competition. I qualify twice a year at work and shoot extremely well with the Glock and I shoot a little more frequently with 1911/2011 type pistols in competition and concealed carry. I have never gotten confused about whether or not to activate/deactivate the safety and my scores have not suffered. I credit my grip and lots of practice for the lack of confusion. My right thumb rides the safety on a 1911/2011 so that I always know the status of the safety and don't activate/deactivate it accidentally and with the Glock, if I get confused (which I don't), it doesn't affect my grip...I just wrap and nest my thumbs pointed forward. No confusion.

I think a lot of people complicate this far too much. Buy and shoot what is comfortable for you. Make sure you practice and train so that if the occasion ever arises that you need to use the tool, you are able to do so competently.

 

[md7]

I’m good with no safety, and I’m good with safeties that are intuitive and easy to use (like a 1911)

Pick one, exercise proper gun handling and then train to proficiency with it.

 

[Charlie98]

What I find entertaining with these complaints about the Glocks grip angle is, that the difference between it, and most others, is very small. It basically mimics a 1911 with an arched MSH and a short trigger.

Of the 3 1911's I own, none have an arched mainspring. They don't fit my hand well, and I don't shoot them as well as I do my flat mainspringers. That is me. You do you.

The difference between the Glock grip angle and a 1911 is small you say? ...but it's large enough for some to notice it, good or bad.

FWIW, even rifles can benefit from different grip angles. I've forever had either A2 or MOE grips on my AR's, I recently tried one of the K2 grips... with a more vertical angle. Holy Toledo! ...where has this been all my life?!?! Is it personal preference? Yes.

The Grip angle is between your ears. It is something that is easy to get used to for anyone willing to try.

Actually, the grip angle is between your fingers and palm. Not everyone's hands and wrist are the same. Can I shoot a Glock? Yes. Can I become proficient with a Glock with lots of practice? Most likely. Do I want to? No.

 

[JDeere]

The Grip angle is between your ears. It is something that is easy to get used to for anyone willing to try.

Exactly, I have never had an issue with differing grip angles. Pick it up, line up the sights and bingo...

 

[Jim Watson]

Grip angle sells.
The expensive novelty item Laugo Alien is adding a new model, the Creator USA, with less rake to the butt; more like a 1911 than a Luger or Glock. I am sure the 500 gun limited edition will sell out.

 

[trackskippy]

I think all of this is in your head and what you actually know, dont know, and have actual real experience with. If all you know is one thing, then of course, everything else is going to seem off.

According to this, the Glock and 1911 are the closest, yet no one complains about all the others when comparing them until the Glock comes in. What I dont understand here too is, if I have no problem shooting any of them interchangeably (and Im by no means some kind of top gun competitor or anything even close), why does it seem to be so hard for others? Unless they just arent willing to try.

The same goes for the perceived importance of manual safeties. Personally, I think a lot of people put WAY too much emphasis and reliance on them, and expect they are working, 100% of the time, which, contrary to what youre always told, is not the case in the real world. They only work if you use them properly, or they are working properly, 100% of the time, and basically just give you a false sense of security.

As far as handling goes, everyone should be treating ANY gun they handle as if it had no safeties at all. Its just that simple. If you do use a gun that has safeties that have to come off before the gun will shoot, then you need to be well conditioned to have that gun in a ready to fire condition, without thought, the second its in your hand, and it stays that way until you go to reholster or secure it. And thats usually where people screw up, especially under stress and/or they are distracted, and where the problems occur.

It all falls back to assuming the gun has no safeties, and treating it as such when you handle it. Safeties or not, any assumption is, its always ready to go, no matter what.

Or, you can always just pull the trigger to check and see if its on.

 

[rust collector]

My own preference is that a handgun or long gun naturally points where I am looking, and gives me the option of using a manual safety or not. I am not an expert and I don't go in harm's way, so in my case it is a matter of balancing risk. The risk of an unintended discharge is greater than the risk of taking an extra second or two to fire in my specific case.

The OP is right in wanting to approach the issue thoughtfully and armed with all relevant information. There is no definitive answer, but there are other people's experiences to be considered. There is no wrong answer as long as one trains to become proficient and aware.

 

[Jim Watson]

Geometric drawings notwithstanding, I find the Glock "Natural Point of Aim" is high, SIG a little low, and 1911, CZ, and PM&P are comparable in MY hands. I was prepared to like the Wilson EDCX9 but its round butt and deep U notch sight made it come up quite low. Why should I train for different characteristics when I have multiple products I am accustomed to?

Glock got a lot of AGE and bandwagon business with their partially cocked striker promoted as a hemi, demi, semi, quasi DAO. Smith and Sig somehow convinced purchasing agents and customers that their cocked striker guns were equivalent. Several others are doing well in the commercial market even though not picked up by some official.

 

[420Stainless]

I like manual safeties on carry guns, including those carried for hunting. I wanted an PDP for a long time until I realized they didn’t have a safety option. I understand, since modern teaching says no safety is better, but I swim against that current. Other than my carry, my range guns are revolvers.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

You've gotten plenty of good opinions here.

Train to your gun, use a good holster, you'll be fine.

I prefer a safety on an autoloader, but I prefer 1911s and have carried them for nearly 3 decades, and have attended multiple week-long training courses with them. The safety is no problem for me, but every few months I'll unload it and give it to my wife and have her try to shoot it and half the time she hits the mag release. So there's that.

Today I'm carrying a .357, and when I put that in front of her the first thing she said was "where's the safety."

So train, so you can defend those you love who won't train with whatever you decide on.

(And use a good holster - they make all the difference.)

 

[Robert]

Like Derek said, lots of good posts, some not so good. Let's call it a day and reflect on what's been posted.