Marine helo crash and Posse Comitatus

[Marko Kloos]

Two USMC AH-1Ws collided in the border area with Mexico, while the Marines were on a joint "drug interdiction" mission with the Border Patrol. Four Marines lost their lives.

What worries me about this news blurb, however, is the circumstance behind the crash. Armed gunships, flown by military pilots, used for domestic law enforcement. That's right, boys and girls...that gurgling sound you hear is the Posse Comitatus act being flushed down the toilet.

I have much respect for the Marines, and losing four good men like this is a dreaded shame. I do, however, get worried about the use of military attack gunships in the law enforcement role.

Citing "invasions of drug dealers from Mexico" won't wash. We're not talking regular armed forces of a hostile nation here, but law breakers. If you use that rhetoric, nearly everything can justify the use of the military for domestic law enforcement.

 

[PATH]

Maybe they can prevent the damn Mexican miliotary from crossing to our side.

 

[KMKeller]

that gurgling sound you hear is the Posse Comitatus act being flushed down the toilet.

It'll be interesting to see this explanation when it comes out. I wonder how they'll try to spin it?

 

[gun-fucious]

According to an expert on NPR:
Monday, April 22, 2002 10:00 - Military Structure
http://www.wamu.org/ram/2002/r1020422.ram

the Posse Comitatus only covers the ARMY
the Navy is exempt

 

[Jeff White]

How do you know the aircraft were armed? I haven't heard if they were carrying any ordnance or not. The sensor suite they carry would be handy for tracking border incursions. A utility helo wouldn't carry the FLIR or other sensors.

The Navy is not covered by posse commitatus. Only the Army and Air Force are. I don't think we should be using the military for law enforcement, but I don't think we should jump into the armed helicopter gunship thing until we know if they were carrying 20mm, 2.75 in FFARs or TOW/HELLFIRE missiles.

Jeff

 

[Art Eatman]

In one sense, this is ancient history.

Look up the deal about Joint Task Force 6 (JTF-6) and the Marines and the Mexican kid killed by them upriver from me, at Redford, Texas. 1997.

There are so many loopholes in "Posse Comitatus" that it's as big a joke as any other governmental promises. It was reported by James Pate in his series of articles on L'Affaire Waco for SOF Magazine that Special Forces troops, under the aegis of JTF-6, trained the BATF guys at a mockup facility at Fort Hood, prior to their botched raid on the Davidian compound.

Art

Edit: Check out this URL: http://dpft.org/hernandez/hc_062897.html and this one: http://dpft.org/hernandez/hc_071397.html

 

[Marko Kloos]

How do you know the aircraft were armed? I haven't heard if they were carrying any ordnance or not. The sensor suite they carry would be handy for tracking border incursions. A utility helo wouldn't carry the FLIR or other sensors.

The Whiskey variant of the Cobra has an integral 20mm three-barrelled cannon in a chin turret that's a permanent part of the aircraft. The cannons can be removed from the chin turret, but it's not as easy as taking off a wing pod, nor is it routinely done.

FLIR is standard equipment these days on most "utility" helos, including the UH-60 Blackhawk and the OH-58. Other than that, the AH-1W does not carry any other "observation" type sensors. It has a laser designator system for the Hellfire missile, but that doesn't serve any other purpose than weapons guidance. The Super Cobra is a dedicated attack bird, not an observation helicopter. One of its missions according to doctrine is battlefield recce, but its main mission is to kill the enemy and break his stuff.

If any local PD in the US acquired one or two Whiskey Cobras for law enforcement duties, most people would be in an uproar about seeing an attack gunship in the sky with a badge painted on it.

 

[Chainsaw]

Lendringser wrote

If any local PD in the US acquired one or two Whiskey Cobras for law enforcement duties, most people would be in an uproar about seeing an attack gunship in the sky with a badge painted on it.

How can you be so sure?

 

[Jeff White]

The Whiskey variant of the Cobra has an integral 20mm three-barrelled cannon in a chin turret that's a permanent part of the aircraft. The cannons can be removed from the chin turret, but it's not as easy as taking off a wing pod, nor is it routinely done.

How much ammunition did they carry? They would not have to remove the cannon to make the aircraft unarmed.

FLIR is standard equipment these days on most "utility" helos, including the UH-60 Blackhawk and the OH-58.

FLIR is standard equipment on the MH60 special operations variant and on the Kiowa Warrior. Everyone else flys with ANVIS passive NODs after dark. Not an issue anyway because the Marines don't use either system.

If any local PD in the US acquired one or two Whiskey Cobras for law enforcement duties, most people would be in an uproar about seeing an attack gunship in the sky with a badge painted on it.

I know of at least one instance where ARNG AH1S Cobras were used on a manhunt for escaped convicts. Granted they were on state active duty (working for the governor, posse commitatus didn't apply) they did not remove the 20mm cannon, but they carried no ammunition and no one considered it a militarization of local law enforcement. They were simply an available airframe.

There are so many loopholes in "Posse Comitatus" that it's as big a joke as any other governmental promises. It was reported by James Pate in his series of articles on L'Affaire Waco for SOF Magazine that Special Forces troops, under the aegis of JTF-6, trained the BATF guys at a mockup facility at Fort Hood, prior to their botched raid on the Davidian compound.

Art, it's only fair to mention that the BATF lied through their teeth to the Army to get that assistance. And in response the Army issued a general order prohibiting any assistance to federal law enforcement until the request was reveiwed and approved in the Pentagon.

In a related story..I saw a report today on Fox News that the INS of all people were operating a P3 (at least that's what the footage showed) to track aircraft entering restricted airspace over cities. It sure seems that we've got a convoluted system. It's no wonder the borders are so porous. Next we'll find out that the Air Force is processing green cards....

Jeff

 

[labgrade]

I don't know that PC says anything about being armed, just the mil'try being used for the enforcemet of civilian laws.

& gimme an A! Art nailed it. Too many holes in whatever anyway. Talk about porous ....

Pssst. Din't a mod use "frickin'" in a sentence? (gasp!) aren't we beyond all that? Runt, where's yer eraser? Ahahahaha

 

[Tamara]

Why use the military for domestic law enforcement when you can just give police departments M16s, BDUs, APCs and such? The only thing missing at the local sherriff's office is an M1 Abrams, but I'm sure that's coming...

 

[DeltaElite]

Well, I would have no problem with the military being used to seal the borders, but that is it. I don't view the border issue as an Le issue, I view it as a national security issue. Give them a 1 mile jurisdiction from the border, limit it severely and keep an eye on them.
The thought of using the military in Le makes my skin crawl. They have their place, I have mine.
I respect the Posse Comitatus Act and I do not want to see military used in Le.

 

[Jeff White]

Well, I guess I took us from the helicopter crash to the militarization of local law enforcement. But really, you can't have it both ways. Either we train and equip law enforcement to handle what they have to face or we don't and accept the consequences when they can't do what we ask of them.

I'm totally against the use of the military to enforce any law within CONUS. I do think that we are getting into a gray area when it comes to the borders. If we aren't going to defend it with the military, then the border patrol needs to be a very paramilitary organization.

So if we don't want USMCR Super Cobras patrlling the border, then I suggest we buy the Border Patrol suitable aircraft to patrol it with. I would bet money that there was no ammunition or ordnance on either aircraft.

I want to know why the INS is operating P3 Orions and getting involved in enforcing airspace restrictions over the nations capital! Are we giving them fighter aircraft and HMMWV mounted Avengers too?

Tam, it wouldn't be economical for you local sheriff's dept to operate an Abrams. I doubt if the local meth heads are operating comparible systems...however, is it possible you added something to your collection that they might need an M1A2 to counter?

Jeff

 

[Tamara]

Jeff,

That Merkava is for display purposes only, I swear!

 

[labgrade]

The reason our borders are so porous is because the migrants don't fear the trip.

No need for a helo to cause a bit of a "Danger, Will Robinson" feeling whislt traipsing about.

Ya gotta figure that with zip for any penalities, there'd be those who'd "risk" the trip.

I've walked further to catch a fish.

I'm certain some here could think of a way or two the make the trip a bit less than a hike & help secure the line a bit moreso than it is.

& that without involving the mil'try.

 

[RTW]

The Posse Comitatus Act has been amended to include, the Navy, Marines, and Air Force.

10 U.S.C. (United States Code) 375

Sec. 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel:

The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

Unfortunately our congress, in its infinite wisdom, has seen fit to create an exception in the PCA for the purpose of fighting the unwinable war on drugs. It sure makes me sleep better at night.:banghead:

 

[org]

What's the problem? One of the traditional functions of the military is protection of the borders from invaders.

 

[wingman]

"What's the problem? One of the traditional functions of the military is protection of the borders from invaders."



Correct, and the "invaders" are costing
all taxpayers, plus changing the face
of America forever, not to speak of loss
of freedom that is and will occur if our
borders are not secure. Homeland Security can only begin with the borders,
not from within.

 

[TallPine]

I'm confused here ...

If the mexican army started to invade, wouldn't the US military step in to defend our country? (well, maybe not .. you never know anymore)

Civilian law enforcement is one thing, but international borders are something else. Why do we even have a military if it is not to protect the sovereignty of our nation, unless it is just for enforcing our foreign policy on the rest of the world? God knows we have spent enough time, money, and lives defending OTHER countries borders, such as S. Korea and W. Germany.

edit: written before I read the last two posts