280PLUS
Member
I think there was a memo actually...
Marines Quiet About Brutal New Weapon
- Thread starter Drizzt
- Start date
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Waitone
Member
From the title I thought Marines rediscovered the 12 ga shotgun.
I think MarineTech has it right.
I think MarineTech has it right.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
War
For the whimpering press agents who get wind of it and wanna make an issue, there are two things about war that have been and will always be.
"Things get busted and people get killed." Get used to it...
For the whimpering press agents who get wind of it and wanna make an issue, there are two things about war that have been and will always be.
"Things get busted and people get killed." Get used to it...
The real news in this story is the headline..."Marines Quiet..." That's the most amazing and unbelieveable part of this story.
(before anyone jumps all over me this is all in good fun, several of my family members have been Marines and I have the utmost respect for all of their extended family.)
(before anyone jumps all over me this is all in good fun, several of my family members have been Marines and I have the utmost respect for all of their extended family.)
The 40mm Thermo Barric round fits the M203. And they work really, really well.
Why they dont shoot the TB round thru the window or door instead of making a hole first is beyond me. Most of the windows and doors are thin material.
The Russian TB round for the RPG is extremely effective. The over pressure from the round is equivelent to that of a 155mm artillery round.
Why they dont shoot the TB round thru the window or door instead of making a hole first is beyond me. Most of the windows and doors are thin material.
The Russian TB round for the RPG is extremely effective. The over pressure from the round is equivelent to that of a 155mm artillery round.
Dave Markowitz
Member
"Brutal?"
Maybe we should just go back to using napalm, flamethrowers, grenades, and satchel charges to dig them out of their holes, just like at Iwo Jima.
Morons.
Maybe we should just go back to using napalm, flamethrowers, grenades, and satchel charges to dig them out of their holes, just like at Iwo Jima.
Morons.
enfield303
Member
As mentioned before...War is the process of converting people and machines into smaller, useless bits of junk. Could someone explain to me how that is not "Brutal"? If I had to choose a way to go out, I'm gonna go with the overpressure wave vs. the bayonet in the guts. Just seems a bit more "Humane".
MD_Willington
Member
...the thing with this new rocket is that you need an existing opening in the building or you need to make one first...
House guest does the same thing...
From: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/03/showdown_the_ba.html#more
House guest does the same thing...
From: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/03/showdown_the_ba.html#more
english kanigit
Member
Hmmmm, sounds useful.
Now where can I get mine? It sounds like just the thing for SHTF!
Now where can I get mine? It sounds like just the thing for SHTF!
So, they want us to go back to bombs? I'm not sure if the 250 lb SDMs are available over there, but at a 10 meter accuracy-and with a bomb that big you're gonna bust more than one house-versus being able to pop one through a window(or other opening), this sounds like the better deal.
The Russian RPG-27, a single shot disposable 105mm rocket, is available with a thermobaric warhead.
They also have a single shot disposable rocket that spreads flammable material over a football field sized area.
Much better than a flamethrower.
Would not want to be on the wrong end of any of that stuff.
They also have a single shot disposable rocket that spreads flammable material over a football field sized area.
Much better than a flamethrower.
Would not want to be on the wrong end of any of that stuff.
Drizzt
Member
Pentagon Used White Phosphorous in Iraq
By ROBERT BURNS
The Associated Press
Tuesday, November 15, 2005; 7:43 PM
WASHINGTON -- Pentagon officials acknowledged Tuesday that U.S. troops used white phosphorous as a weapon against insurgent strongholds during the battle of Fallujah last November. But they denied an Italian television news report that the spontaneously flammable material was used against civilians.
Lt. Col. Barry Venable, a Pentagon spokesman, said that while white phosphorous is most frequently used to mark targets or obscure a position, it was used at times in Fallujah as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants.
"It was not used against civilians," Venable said.
The spokesman referred reporters to an article in the March-April 2005 edition of the Army's Field Artillery magazine, an official publication, in which veterans of the Fallujah fight spelled out their use of white phosphorous and other weapons. The authors used the shorthand "WP" in referring to white phosphorous.
"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition," the authors wrote. "We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE (high explosive)" munitions.
"We fired `shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
The authors added, in citing lessons for future urban battles, that fire-support teams should have used another type of smoke bomb for screening missions in Fallujah "and saved our WP for lethal missions."
The battle for Fallujah was the most intense and deadly fight of the war, after the fall of Baghdad in April 2003. The city, about 35 miles west of Baghdad on the Euphrates River, was a key insurgent stronghold. The authors of the "after action" report said they encountered few civilians in their area of operations.
Italian communists held a sit-in Monday in front of the U.S. Embassy in Rome to protest the reported use by American troops of white phosphorous. Italy's state-run RAI24 news television aired a documentary last week alleging the U.S. used white phosphorous shells in a "massive and indiscriminate way" against civilians during the Fallujah offensive.
The State Department, in response, initially denied that U.S. troops had used white phosphorous against enemy forces. "They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters."
The department later said its statement had been incorrect.
"There is a great deal of misinformation feeding on itself about U.S. forces allegedly using `outlawed' weapons in Fallujah," the department said. "The facts are that U.S. forces are not using any illegal weapons in Fallujah or anywhere else in Iraq."
Venable said white phosphorous shells are a standard weapon used by field artillery units and are not banned by any international weapons convention to which the U.S. is a signatory.
White phosphorous is a colorless-to-yellow translucent wax-like substance with a pungent, garlic-like smell. The form used by the military ignites once it is exposed to oxygen, producing such heat that it bursts into a yellow flame and produces a dense white smoke. It can cause painful burn injuries to exposed human flesh.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501210_pf.html
By ROBERT BURNS
The Associated Press
Tuesday, November 15, 2005; 7:43 PM
WASHINGTON -- Pentagon officials acknowledged Tuesday that U.S. troops used white phosphorous as a weapon against insurgent strongholds during the battle of Fallujah last November. But they denied an Italian television news report that the spontaneously flammable material was used against civilians.
Lt. Col. Barry Venable, a Pentagon spokesman, said that while white phosphorous is most frequently used to mark targets or obscure a position, it was used at times in Fallujah as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants.
"It was not used against civilians," Venable said.
The spokesman referred reporters to an article in the March-April 2005 edition of the Army's Field Artillery magazine, an official publication, in which veterans of the Fallujah fight spelled out their use of white phosphorous and other weapons. The authors used the shorthand "WP" in referring to white phosphorous.
"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition," the authors wrote. "We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE (high explosive)" munitions.
"We fired `shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."
The authors added, in citing lessons for future urban battles, that fire-support teams should have used another type of smoke bomb for screening missions in Fallujah "and saved our WP for lethal missions."
The battle for Fallujah was the most intense and deadly fight of the war, after the fall of Baghdad in April 2003. The city, about 35 miles west of Baghdad on the Euphrates River, was a key insurgent stronghold. The authors of the "after action" report said they encountered few civilians in their area of operations.
Italian communists held a sit-in Monday in front of the U.S. Embassy in Rome to protest the reported use by American troops of white phosphorous. Italy's state-run RAI24 news television aired a documentary last week alleging the U.S. used white phosphorous shells in a "massive and indiscriminate way" against civilians during the Fallujah offensive.
The State Department, in response, initially denied that U.S. troops had used white phosphorous against enemy forces. "They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters."
The department later said its statement had been incorrect.
"There is a great deal of misinformation feeding on itself about U.S. forces allegedly using `outlawed' weapons in Fallujah," the department said. "The facts are that U.S. forces are not using any illegal weapons in Fallujah or anywhere else in Iraq."
Venable said white phosphorous shells are a standard weapon used by field artillery units and are not banned by any international weapons convention to which the U.S. is a signatory.
White phosphorous is a colorless-to-yellow translucent wax-like substance with a pungent, garlic-like smell. The form used by the military ignites once it is exposed to oxygen, producing such heat that it bursts into a yellow flame and produces a dense white smoke. It can cause painful burn injuries to exposed human flesh.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501210_pf.html
atomchaser
Member
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The insurgents use WP mortars as well. Saw a trailer get burned up with one. Of course the trailers over there are so flimsly, a zippo probably would do just a well.
Langenator
Member
So, you're a grunt faced by a building that the Hajis have turned into a field expidient bunker. Your options are:
1) Assault, enter, and clear the place, probably losing several friendly wounded and/or dead to booby traps, enemy fire, and enemies who'd rather blow themselves up than be captured
2) If you have air support available, use a JDAM-weighing 250, 500, or maybe 1,000 pounds-which will leave a large hole where the building stood, and level many of the buildings immediately around it
3) Use your man-portable rocket system to kill the hajis and collapse the building on any who survive the blast, with minimal collateral damage to surrounding structures.
So, which is more "brutal?"
"There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' " -Gen. George S. Patton
1) Assault, enter, and clear the place, probably losing several friendly wounded and/or dead to booby traps, enemy fire, and enemies who'd rather blow themselves up than be captured
2) If you have air support available, use a JDAM-weighing 250, 500, or maybe 1,000 pounds-which will leave a large hole where the building stood, and level many of the buildings immediately around it
3) Use your man-portable rocket system to kill the hajis and collapse the building on any who survive the blast, with minimal collateral damage to surrounding structures.
So, which is more "brutal?"
"There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, 'To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time.' " -Gen. George S. Patton
Fletchette
Member
This round isn't as brutal as having your head cut off with a dull kitchen knife...
I am getting so sick of these Fifth Columnist reporters and their smarmy "news reporting". I heard that the head of NPR (newly appointed by Bush) stepped down amidst controversy that he thought Public Broadcastic was liberally biased. (no duh!) The reporters acted like this was scandelous!
The mainstream media is so biased that they think anyone who points that out is an "extremist".
The only good news is that the mainstream media is dying, quickly.
I am getting so sick of these Fifth Columnist reporters and their smarmy "news reporting". I heard that the head of NPR (newly appointed by Bush) stepped down amidst controversy that he thought Public Broadcastic was liberally biased. (no duh!) The reporters acted like this was scandelous!
The mainstream media is so biased that they think anyone who points that out is an "extremist".
The only good news is that the mainstream media is dying, quickly.
cracked butt
Member
I swear that if Marines were required to go door to door clearing houses armed with nothing but wiffle bats, the same people would be screaming 'brutality.'
Ryder
Member
Make your own? It's just the ignition of a dispersed combustible material. Ever seen what a natural gas explosion does to a home? Dust makes a good fuel too.
We got to play around with this in a safety class at work. Love The Thump!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Marines Quiet
Yeah..Quiet when there's a news reporter watchin'. When they use one without the camera on'em, they probably jump up and down and holler:
OOOOOOOHRAAAAAAAAAAAAAW! Did ya'll see THAT sheeeeeit?
I say issue a bandolier to ever mother's son amongst'em and turn'em loose.
Uncle Sam's Misguided Chillun...Some things just never change.
Yeah..Quiet when there's a news reporter watchin'. When they use one without the camera on'em, they probably jump up and down and holler:
OOOOOOOHRAAAAAAAAAAAAAW! Did ya'll see THAT sheeeeeit?
I say issue a bandolier to ever mother's son amongst'em and turn'em loose.
Uncle Sam's Misguided Chillun...Some things just never change.
If I understand the weapon correctly, it emits a combustable gas and then ignites it. The Air Force has had a similar systen for many years. It's a large bomb that was used to blast landing zones for helo's in the jungle. The blast was so powerful, it was seen by satellites as thermonuclear explosions.
IIRC, someone asked "Bomber" Harris, the head of R.A.F. Bomber Command in WWII about the "Morality" of using firebombing against the Germans. He said,"Why is it moral to stick a bayonet in a mans belly or tear him to shreds with shrapnel, or put a bullet in his brain, but it's immoral to burn him up? What absolute poppycock!"
Wars are won by making the cost of waging it too high to your enemy. If Willie Peter makes the Iraqi insurgents suffer too much to continue fighting, how can that be bad?
IIRC, someone asked "Bomber" Harris, the head of R.A.F. Bomber Command in WWII about the "Morality" of using firebombing against the Germans. He said,"Why is it moral to stick a bayonet in a mans belly or tear him to shreds with shrapnel, or put a bullet in his brain, but it's immoral to burn him up? What absolute poppycock!"
Wars are won by making the cost of waging it too high to your enemy. If Willie Peter makes the Iraqi insurgents suffer too much to continue fighting, how can that be bad?
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