Marlin 1894 accuracy woes

[0to60]

I bought a new Marlin 1894 in .44 mag and I can't hit nothin' with the thing. In a Hickock45 video, he says that he had the same problem with his and it turned out to be his bullets were sized .429". Apparently, the Marlins like .431". He said his rounds were keyholing and generally all over the place.

I'm shooting 240 grain SWCs from Missouri Bullet Company, and they're supposed to be .430". Attached are some of my targets. Are my rounds keyholing?

 

[45_auto]

Are my rounds keyholing?

Yep.

See all those holes that aren't round, where it looks like the bullet went through the target sideways?

That's keyholing.

 

[MEHavey]

I'm shooting 240 grain SWCs from Missouri Bullet Company, and they're supposed to be .430".
Attached are some of my targets. Are my rounds keyholing?

What powder/charge have you got behind them ?
And are these the hard BN-18 Keiths ?

1. Unless you are driving that BN-18 bullet hard, it will not obdurate to fill the grooves.
2. Unless you use a fast powder for medium loads, it will not obdurate to fill the grooves.

Go w/ much Faster powder
Go w/ much Softer bullet



If you really want to drive hard, you need to do so with a gas check.
Otherwise you're fighting a bullet that's too hard to obdurate at med speeds,
and unable to stand (w/o a gas checK) the high speeds/pressures needed to overcome its hardness.

 

[Hookeye]

I got one new in 2008.
Only tried one load in it.
Factory Hornady 240 "custom" (whatever that is).
Had a 2-7x scope on it.
7X......over my coat on a cold day (with coat off that made things even more chilly)......100 yards. 5 shots at or under 2". Tried 5 more, same thing.
Hence the reason to not try any other loads.
I did work the action for 2 nights while watching TV to smooth it up.
Decided lever guns weren't my thing, didn't see any deer big enough to shoot......so sold it.
I find Hornady factory ammo to be warm, certainly not hot. My handloads are at max plus (according to lawyer written manuals) and case life is great.
In my handguns, the faster I push 'em the better they shoot.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Check the ammo too.

Firstly, I'd generally go to you having Missouri Bullet Company accuracy woes until this symptom is duplicated with another type of round by another manufacturer.

Todd.

 

[savanahsdad]

does that have a micro grove barrel ,there was talk of getting rid of them , but everyone I've ever seen has the micro grove barrel , some folks have no problem shooting cast out of them but most say it's not a good idea unless you scrub all the copper fouling out , get it as clean as you can , and then only use gas-checked bullets, also the rate of twist may not stabilize heavy cast bullets , , I leaded mine up once ! never again , real pain cleaning
out lead fouling from a micro grove barrel , mine is an older pre-warning model 1894, and it only gets jacketed bullets now , mostly XTP's

 

[Dave P]

Similar problems here, in the past. As I recall, the super slow twist rate fights you all the way.

But find the right bullet/load, and you will be a happy camper.

 

[savanahsdad]

Similar problems here, in the past. As I recall, the super slow twist rate fights you all the way.

But find the right bullet/load, and you will be a happy camper.

yeah , 1; 38 if I remember right ,

 

[MEHavey]

The 1:38 will support up to 280gr bullets at speeds > 1250, but not heavier.
(ask me how I know)
`94/`95Marlins have been Ballard grooved since the late 90s.

 

[CaliCoastie]

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. My 1894 loves 300gn xtp, which everything you read would tell you different. If that was my gun I would get some Winchester 240gn white box 44mag, most people have decent success with that one. If that doesn't work? How new is it? Serial number start with MR? Good luck.

 

[0to60]

I'm using 12.8 grains of 800x. I'm getting ~1500 fps with this round in this gun.

The other thing I'm doing is using a Lee Factory Carbide Crimp Die. This die includes a final sizing ring that is squeezing my bullets to .429".

It sounds like I need to:

A) try some jacketed, factory ammo
B) ditch the Lee crimp die
C) tell Missouri Bullet to size these things .431 or .432 and try again once B is handled above.

 

[DMZ]

This thread got my attention because I have a older Marlin 1894CP that has never grouped much better than my Model 29 with the same loads.

It has Ballard rifling and a 16" barrel, but the best I have ever shot with it is 3-4" @ 50 yds. I shoot only jacketed bullets in it. Best load is 240 gr XTP over 7.5 gr Unique.

Shooting 44 Spl anything through it opens the groups to 6-7".

I am loath to sell it even though that model is somewhat rare and sought after, but I do not shoot it much anymore.

 

[Slamfire]

Just at the turn of the century I called Marlin and wanted to rebarrel my 1982 vintage M1894 with a new ballard barrel. Accuracy was just awful with the microgroove. They told me their barrels were 0.431" because that was SAAMI spec. Anyway the new ballard barrel was an improvement, but not much. I had keyholes, like yours with 290 gr cast bullets. The twist rate on a Marlin 44 Mag is all wrong, should be faster, and mine will shot 240's into 4 MOA at 100 yards.

 

[MEHavey]

A) try some jacketed, factory ammo

You will find the jacketed does fine.

B) ditch the Lee crimp die

Roger that. Get standard seater/crimper.

C) tell Missouri Bullet to size these things .431 or .432 and try again once B is handled above

That would help, but consider getting either: (1) gas-checked if you intend to push things that hard; or (2) softer alloy if you intend to stay with plain-base, and somewhat lower speeds.

As to 280gr max for 1:38, that's for general plain-base/cast.
If you can get that 300gr XTP up past 14-1600, it should stabilize fine

 

[243winxb]

12.8 grains of 800x.

lower it.

 

[Jlr2267]

Those Marlin barrels are nominally 0.431". You need to slug the bore to know for sure, but you're likely gonna need a larger diameter bullet. I used special order .432" RNFP bullets from MBC for mine with good results. They were 18BHN and worked with medium to hot loadings.

and yes, the FCD will resize your bullet unless you knock out the carbide ring

 

[Salmoneye]

SAAMI spec for .44mag 'Rifle' is .431" groove diameter...SAAMI spec for handgun is .429" groove...

I shoot .432" cast in my 1894, but it prefers .433"...

.431" will not keyhole out of mine, but it shoots shotgun patterns at 25 yards...

 

[MEHavey]

I continue to have trouble convincing folk to shoot softer* bullets to best accommodate perceived "bore-fit" problems.
You can never get lead hard enough** to overcome shallow groove engagement that jacketed bullets can handle.

But you can fill the grooves fully and do just fine if the powder is fast and the bullet is soft. ***




* 30:1 (BN-6/7); 20:1(BN-8); WW (BN-9/10)... at hardest Lyman#2 (BN-15)
(See CHART)
** Super-Dooper Hard cast is BN-20/24. Gilding/Jacketing is 100+
***Incidentally, I shoot simple gas-checked to 1,900fps in my 30-06 -- and the hardest I ever use is Lyman#2


.

 

[greyling22]

I had terrible keyholing and leading with my 1894 marlin in 44 at first. But I was using a real soft bullet and a fast powder. It was just stripping out on the rifleing. Harder bullet and slower powder was the solution for me. And I was using a fat cast lead bullet. You can make microgroove shoot, but just like Ballard rifling, it wants a fat bullet.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Another simple solution is try 180-200grn jacketed bullets. They kill deer fine.

 

[0to60]

Ok, so I tried some Nosler 240 grain JHPs and then I had Missouri Bullet size me up some 240 TCs to .431", and I get the same, shotgun groups as before. 35 yards from a bench, I'm getting maybe 18" groups no matter what I shoot through it.

I think its time this thing went back to Marlin.

 

[Schwing]

I am sorry you have are having bad luck with this rifle. I went through the same thing. It fired jacketed bullets great but any lead bullet at any diameter with any charge was pretty unremarkable.

here was my old thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=776657

It is almost certainly ballard rifling and not micro groove and is a 1:38 twist. Even if it is micro groove, I know many folks who shoot lead out of them with no problem. People just seem to have varying degrees of luck with these where cast bullets are concerned.

I slugged my barrel and mine was .4315. I sized my bullets to .433 and, it helped, but wasn't the cure all.

I finally sold it to another shooter who doesn't use cast bullets and he was very happy with it since he only uses Montana gold JSPs in it.

 

[0to60]

Update

Ok, so I sent the Marlin back to the mothership. Remington's customer service is very good. When they finally answer the phone, they send you a link that will schedule UPS to come retrieve the gun from you. Very nice. And, they have an online "check the status of your repair" thing.

So I got the gun back and they were able to duplicate the problem and the action they took was "barrel indexing". They said that cured the problem and included a test target from 50 yards with a 2-3 inch group.

I took it to the range to see for myself and guess what? With my lead reloads (50 rounds of .430" and 50 at .431"), it still looked like I was shooting a shotgun. Maybe 10" groups from a rest at 35 yards. I then bought some factory ammo and shot a group slightly wider than Remington's, but it was from 35 yards instead of their 50. The attached photo shows my group and theirs.

I'm TOTALLY disappointed with this rifle and don't intend to keep it. It sucks because I attribute this to poor quality, but Remington says they fixed it and they're satisfied with it. I have no use for a gun that I don't shoot accurately.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I have owned two Marlin 1894's a 44 and a 357 magnum.

If either of them EVER fired an acceptable grouping I don't remember it.

To me they're one of those rifles everyone loves but for no good reason.

I now have a 35 cal 336 and it shoots just fine

 

[MEHavey]

...and I currently have two Marlin`94s, 44Mag & 45Colt, both RemLins
They shoot absolutely superbly.

My 2₵