Martial arts expert trains military

[Drizzt]

Martial arts expert trains military

1/14/2003 5:00 AM
By: John Hygh



When you think of war, you normally think of guns, tanks, and bombs, but what happens when troops are in a war and they can't use those type of weapons? One martial arts instructor helps Marines prepare themselves for such scenarios.

As the U.S. Marines train to fight the war on terrorism in the southern Philippines, one guy who helps them get ready for their close encounters is martial arts instructor, Leslie Buck. He teaches them the Kali technique.

"There's tight jungle trails. Somebody will jump out, and mind you, these people that live in the Southern Philippines, not all of them are driving their BMW's or what not. They're using their farm implements, they're using machetes and they jump out and cut off the heads. And the Marines experienced no matter how highly technical their weapons are, they're automatically at close range. There's no preparation," Buck said.

Because in the jungles of the Philippines, someone could be close to you and you wouldn't even know it.

"The main consideration for law enforcement, for military is, 'I have a gun. What do I need anything else for?' But what happens when somebody else has the gun? You just don't have the opportunity to always have a gun in a knife fight, or vice-versa. So you have to be prepared for any circumstance.

"You'll have somebody using a traditional weapon. A sword, a machete that's been around for thousands of years. It's more effective than their M-16s, M-4s, their modern weaponry. So they had to find a way to deal with that. I'm the lucky one. I get to
stay on the base and be treated kind of like a king, but help these guys be prepared for what they have to do. Those guys are the real heroes going in there. And it's their job to go in there and risk their lives," Buck said.

While Buck won't see the front lines, the techniques he teaches the Marines play a critical role in protecting them.

Buck will make his second trip back to the Philippines at the end of the month to teach 500 Marines the Kali technique.

http://www.news8austin.com/content/headlines/?ArID=58050&SecID=2

 

[Beer for my Horses]

I don't know what the Kali technique is, but I do know that Rangers and other soldiers receive training in Brazillian Jiu Jitsu. It's an excellent fighting system for dealing with real world hand to hand conflicts that inevitably go to the ground. All that flashy kicking taught in Tae Kwan Doe and shown in the movies is fun to watch but useless in most CQB scenarios.

 

[Teufelhunden]

I find it odd that they're teaching another martial art system to (some of) us since they just spent all kinds of time and money developing MCMAP (Marine Corps Matial Art Program), a proprietary amalgamation of a variety of different styles...

-Teuf

 

[Beer for my Horses]

Teufelhunden,
Doesn't MCMAP incorporate a lot of Jiu Jitsu and grappling/ground fighting styles?

 

[JShirley]

Beer,

I think BJJ "combatatives" is essentially useless for troops. Maybe authentic BJJ could be useful somehow, but what they teach...ain't.

MA and bayonet training are only taught to troops as aggression and confidence training.

John Shirley
11C and longtime kobudo stylist.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Beer: MCMAP incorporated everything from formal martial arts to prison stabbings in its development. There are different levels of qualification within the program, and I'm fairly low down the chain, but from what I've seen the instructor showing the staff and officers it looks like the program has an answer for just about every position you might find yourself in.

JShirley: Maybe the Army just uses it for 'feel good' training, but the Corps views hand to hand combat (in its various forms) to be a likelyhood and has spent a lot of time and money training its Marines to be lethal with or without a rifle. To quote the Navy Times in its November, 1994 issue:

"Marines know how to use their bayonets. Army bayonets may as well be paper-weights."

-Teuf

 

[twoblink]

In Taiwan, they have "San Da" which is a mix martial arts as well..

I have studied most of this stuff for years; and I can tell you a few things from my experience:

First, there are two dominant styles currently (and their variants)

BJJ, Muay Thai.

Brazilian Ju-Jitsu is superior on the ground, it incorporates a lot of locks, traps, and guards. Great for 1vs1 fighting.

Muay Thai has devistating kicks and punches... But what is more lethal are the elbows and knees. As elbows and knees generate 3x the power of a kick or punch. One of the most effective assaults is the Muay Thai kick, different from all other kicks in all other martial arts in the world. the Muay Thai kick uses the very hard shin bone as sort of a club, it doesn't snap the kick, but rather uses a full hip rotation (a lot of power) and then uses the shin as the baseball bat. Aimed at either the ribs, back of the thighs, or neck, it's devistating.. If need be, aimed at the knees and bye bye knees. The only effective way to block that is with your own shins, or get out of the way. A hit to the back of the thighs will render your leg numb, as there are major nerves in the back of the thighs.

BJJ can be countered by Muay Thai just like Boxing can. Although boxing has a much fuller array of punches, it loses to Muay Thai because, while a boxer is trained to bob and weave and duck, that opens him up for a knee to the face, which is good night if you get hit by one. Muay Thai has a very effective clench, which allows it to control the head and entire upper body, and that is why it's effective against a BJJ fighter; if you grab me and don't take me down within the first second, you will get a bombardment of elbows and knees..

But if you can take a Muay Thai onto the ground, and you are BJJ, you will have the upper hand. One of the good backgrounds against BJJ's on the ground is grecko roman wrestling, as most GRW's are very "slippery" and can get out of quite a few holds while at the same time having good skills at holding an opponent on the ground.

A Muay Thai + BJJ is all but unbeatable...

Muay Thai kicks, elbows, and knees, plus good ground work a la BJJ, is awesome and if you want any of the Pride fights or NHB stuff like Ultimate Fighting or any MMA, then you will see that what I am saying is true..

San Da tries to counter Muay Thai by adding the throw into the mix, that way, when a Muay Thai is about to clunch, they get thrown instead. While I like SanDa, I have to say, the kicks are nothing like the Muay Thai kicks, and so while great for "sport" it's not as effective as far as self-defense.

One thing I like about BJJ, you can make the guy submit, without damaging him; in Muay Thai, most end up seriously bloody...

There are a few parts that need consideration:

First, both are standing, how do I deliver as much punishment as possible (to end it ASAP)

Second, how do I prevent him from taking me to the ground?

Third, how do I take him to the ground and make him submit or subdue him?

 

[Beer for my Horses]

Muay Thai has devistating kicks and punches... But what is more lethal are the elbows and knees.

My BJJ instructor teaches elbows and knees, but he also fights in cage matches so I suspect he's mixing Muay Thai techniques. or does BJJ in its pure form teach this type of striking?

 

[twoblink]

Getting back on the subject matter,

I have to say, that while guns are great, there seems to be too much dependence on them for 100% self-defense. What if you get a jam? FoF? Run out of ammo? The bad guy knocks it out of your hands?

I think knowing some sort of hand-to-hand combat is very good, and it increases your awareness of your own body, your own limits, and physical dexterity is always a plus.

To answer the other question; BJJ teaches basic strikes and blows; Some are the same as Muay Thai, some are not. Muay Thai only teaches "knockout" punches, no jabs etc.. BJJ has different reasons for punching, (mostly as an advance on a position for a takedown and to disorient)

 

[Stinkyshoe]

Two Blink
I totally agree with you. I have a taekwondo background, but got out of that and am studying jiu jitsu and Muay thai. The thai kicks are extremely powerful. Low leg and thigh kicks are meant to numb the leg. The midsection kicks are meant to contact with the shin into the ribs and foot into the kidney. The high kicks are meant to contact the neck with the shin and the back of the head with the foot. My instructor was teaching me how to block these kicks and even with a good block, these kicks still jar stuff around.
The grapevine techniques for controlling the neck and torso for jamming knees and elbows are also very devastating. I just started learning these fighting styles, but I can already see that a mixed MA background for Marines and Army would be very good. The techniques I have learned thus far in Grappling/JJ are more geared toward submission and not necessarily killing. I am sure with a different technique Grappling and JJ could be more killing oriented. I think for combat, the eyes and throat would be more of a target than in submission fighting.
I hope this was on topic,
SS

 

[SIGarmed]

Whatever happened to the Marine Corps L.I.N.E. ( Linear, Infighting , Neural, Override , Engagement) System?

They didn't have that fancy shmancy stuff when I was in.

Sweep and stomp!

 

[Leadbutt]

I wouldn't discount any thing learned in the islands,there are a lot of dead Japs due to that type of fighting, one of the best instructors i had could do wonders with a Bali-song up close and nose to nose

 

[blitzer0101]

Focused training incorperating the best moves from several systems is currently the trend in many of our allies military and the former Soviet Union.

Use what works and toss the rest. Using form over fashion is the focus for serious combat training.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Kali would have the advantage of having been developed with the assumption that your opponent has a weapon, generally stick, knife, or machete/sword. Some people also claim that Filipino arts like Kali are closer to their combat roots than other styles because of the instability of the Philippines over the last hundred years. I've heard FMA practicioners say that a Master in FMA is as likely as not to have studied under a man who came to America not because he wanted to get rich teaching round-eyes but because he needed to disappear for awhile after one of his enemies had a knife accident. Whether that's a good thing or not is, of course, up to the student.

BJJ and Muay Thai are the fad of the moment. That carries both good connotations and bad. Frankly, it means that a lot of people will throw around terms they shouldn't, like "unbeatable" and "invincible" and "ultimate." These people are setting these arts up for a fall in a couple of years when something else becomes the flavor of the week and people who joined a BJJ class thinking they would become "unbeatable" are disillusioned.
It also means that a certain number of people will begin to dismiss BJJ/Muay Thai practicioners as sheep following the latest craze.
Neither approach is necessarily a good idea. There is no doubt that both are very effective styles when practiced by athletic, smart, tough warriors, so it's a bad idea to dismiss them as mere fads. However, there's also no doubt that a lot of people are just looking for the magic bullet and are more likely to get themselves hurt than anything else.

FWIW, I recently read an interview with a pro fighter who trained in TKD for a long time and later trained in Muay Thai. He attempts a seamless integration of the two (obviously this is not always possible) and considers that the best of all worlds when it comes to striking. I think he has something there. TKD emphasizes range and movement in ways that Muay Thai doesn't. Muay Thai clearly offers a greater emphasis on devastating power. My impression has always been, though, that Muay Thai accepts that you will stay within range of your opponent and accept a certain amount of punishment while blocking what you can. Certainly this is sometimes necessary, but TKD emphasizes sticking and moving such that you are not in one place within range any longer than you have to be to deliver the strike. No, this doesn't work the same in a fight as it does in theory, I suppose, but what does?

I know there are a certain number of people shaking their heads and clucking their tongues that this poor misguided hick would be championing TKD. Well, I understand. It wasn't my first choice either, but when I began to train in it I realized that I hadn't quite understood it. Anyway, if you're one of the tongue-cluckers, recall that kickboxing of any type was supposed to be on its way to obsolescence about 8 years ago. Royce Gracie and his gigantic family had supposedly made it obsolete with BJJ. After all, he'd won UFC impressively, and wasn't that all there was to say on the subject? Now, a few years later, kickboxing and BJJ are almost inseparable. You never hear one mentioned without the other.
What will be the fad in 2013?

 

[Wilhelm]

I watched a program a month or so ago on Discovery about Army bootcamp. They showed the recruits do a high kick, a low kick and a straight punch. Then they got into a few BJJ techniques. An arm bar and a choke. I was sorley disapointed with what I saw.

I have a blue belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,I also train at a professional NHB gym and have had the pleasure of trainig with quite a few professional fighters.

There are 3 aspects to a hand to hand fight. Stand up, clinch and the ground. What I saw during this program was a very minimal stand up and even less minimal ground. The clinch was ignored all together. The instructors never explained why to do the techniques they showed. I called a friend who is a Ranger stationed in Washington state and who also trains in BJJ and asked him if the Army's program was really that bad. He confirmed my fears and we joked about it for a bit. So here we are and we have a kali guy teaching marines how to use a sword for CQB because the BG are getting in to close to fast. For a weapon to be used it has to be ready. If a guy can get inside the range of a rifle fast enough to use a bladed weapon, then he is gonna get there before a machete can be pulled in time to use. Are they teaching our Marines to stow their rifles and bring out machete's in the bush? Why not fix bayonettes and have both a rifle and a CQB weapon at the ready? The military's approach to hand to hand combat has always amused me. Like some one said early it appears they are looking for a quick fix.



Wilhelm

 

[Beorn]

Forget all those other martial arts!

You should all do SUMO! Just like me!

I'm the bigger guy.

 

[SIGarmed]

Wilhelm said:

I watched a program a month or so ago on Discovery about Army bootcamp. They showed the recruits do a high kick, a low kick and a straight punch. Then they got into a few BJJ techniques. An arm bar and a choke. I was sorley disapointed with what I saw.

I saw that too. Beleive me, myself and other veterans were sorely disappointed in that travesty too, not just the hand to hand combat part either.

 

[Wilhelm]

Every time I think of this Kali thing I chuckle (more to quell my anger). They teach these guys this stuff making them think they are prepared for a given situation and really its just false hope. Gets me all riled up!!!!!


Wilhelm

 

[Kwai chang]

For every situation there are different ways to react. A style sets limitations.

 

[stillamarine]

Whatever happened to the Marine Corps L.I.N.E. ( Linear, Infighting , Neural, Override , Engagement) System?

They didn't have that fancy shmancy stuff when I was in.

Sweep and stomp!

That's old Corps! That was the thing with L.I.N.E training was the explosion of action. Wasn't no fancy stuff, kick but and be down with it.

Having said that, during my time in the Corps we were constantly learning new things, the new program was in the works while I was on AD. Myself and many other Marines in my unit practiced different things whenever we could, any Marine ever on a MEU can remember the many days and nights of free for all grappling on the hanger deck or well deck. (I think I still have scars from nonskid!)

 

[hso]

Kali is a very close up Fillipino martial art that has a heavy blade/stick tradition. What Don's said about it is pretty accurate. People grow up learning Kali and fights and feuds occur frequently with families and friends hunting for the winner to exact revenge.

I would expect it's value in the Phillipines is in teaching the troops there how to deal with ambush attacks by folks that have grown up with it. Without training to deal with such attacks you're limited in your ability to respond. That usually means dead.

I hope that they're incorportating the rifle as a H2H defensive weapon so that they can block and then shoot instead of trying to use it as an unwieldy H2H weapon on it's own or abandoning it alltogether.

 

[JShirley]

Old thread back from the dead...

 

[shooter503]

You young whippersnappers don't seem to remember Fairbarn and Sykes. The circle goes round and round and we continually re-discover, and make newly fashionable, what we rejected a few years before.

90% of what the present police/military need to know about urban and irregular warfare was taught by these two men in WW2. It is just that their teaching was considered obsolete and that it was being replaced by technology.

Toujour le change, toujour le meme choise.

 

[LAK]

You'll have somebody using a traditional weapon. A sword, a machete that's been around for thousands of years. It's more effective than their M-16s, M-4s, their modern weaponry. So they had to find a way to deal with that

What a profound statement.

And what twoblink said.

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