Massad Ayoob: "Are revolvers still relevant?"

[Styx]

As a military side arm the revolver are obsolete. It could be the poster child for the word obsolete in the dictionary.

I thought context in this thread and what we were discussing was civilian carry and not fighting wars. In that regard I'd agree with you, but would also say then the P365 and the like and subcompacts like the G26 are also "obsolete" for military use. Then I'd take it a step further and would say the the bigger fullsize pistols have become obsolete in modern-day EDC.

I will take issue with point 6. With quality handguns from reputable makers the failure rate is so vanishing low with both semi-autos and revolvers that as far as picking a CCW weapon, reliability is at best a secondary if not a tertiary consideration when selecting a sidearm.

That maybe true and I agree with you within a perfect setting. The fact still remains that irregardless of the manufacturer, parts wear and do break. I've been on GlockTalk, the S&W forum, and other popular firearm forums long enough to know that this is the case. It might not happen a lot per capita, but it's still happens. Next, in an altercation where one doesn't have proper grip, the slide stop, mag release, riding the slide, being pushed out of battery, failure to eject or load a new round, limp writing, etc do become valid failure points that aren't an issue with revolvers. The fact still remains that semiautos introduce several more points of failure. There are a whole list of things that must go right in relation to one another else your left holding a paperweight.

Semi-autos are for the most part can be just as reliable as revolvers if the your grip and everything else is perfect as would be more likely in competition, at the range, and during a training class; otherwise, revolvers become much more reliable during a struggle.

 

[mcb]

I thought context in this thread and what we were discussing was civilian carry and not fighting wars. In that regard I'd agree with then, but would also say then the P365 and the like and subcompacts like the G26 are also "obsolete" for military use. Then I'd take it a step further and would say the the bigger fullsize pistols have become obsolete in modern-day EDC.

But sub compact handguns were never initially intended for military use. Obsolete means at one time it was widely use for a give application and has fallen out of that use. The subcompact handgun has never been widely accepted as a military handgun and thus cannot become obsolete in that context.

Obsolete at the individual level also does not make much sense. ie If an individual choose to CCW say a pin fire revolver, the technology is fairly obviously obsolete no one is manufacturing guns or ammunition, but with sufficient practice and a bit of resourcefulness to supply the ammo a person could used it effectively as a CCW weapon. Its obsolete almost without question, but does not matter to that person. My point being its easy to see obsolesce in a group like LEO or the Military since they tend to have more collative decision making when it comes to equipment. That become a much much more fuzzy issue in the context of CCW where there in no strong collective decision making on hardware, just a lot of rambling and widely varying peer pressure.

That maybe true and I agree with you within perfect setting. The fact still remains that irregardless of the manufacturer, parts wear and do break. I've been on GlockTalk, the S&W forum, and other popular firearm forums long enough to know that this is the case. Next, in an altercation where one doesn't have proper grip, the slide stop, mag release, riding the slide, being pushed out of battery, failure to eject or load a new round, limp writing, etc do become valid failure points that aren't an issue with revolvers. The fact still remains that semiautos introduce several more points of failure. There are a whole list of things that must go right in relation to one another else your left holding a paperweight.

In my experience, training and practice reduces those addition failure points of the semi-auto to the level that the other benefits of the semi-auto more than make up for them. Capacity, better trigger, speed of shooting, recoil mitigation, etc more than offset the negatives of the semi-autos. I say this as someone that loves and uses revolvers almost exclusively for CCW, woods, hunting and competition. I just don't lie to myself that when I put a revolver in my pocket that I am not leaving some capability at home with my semi-autos.

 

[mcb]

The revolver is king….in revolver only competitions.

What is it when you win Production division with a Revolver at the local USPSA match?

 

[Kleanbore]

but would also say then the P365 and the like and subcompacts like the G26 are also "obsolete" for military use.

They were never issued for military use.

Then I'd take it a step further and would say the the bigger fullsize pistols have become obsolete in modern-day EDC.

Why would anyone think so? Carriers have aways been able to choose. A full-size semi, should one choose one for EDC, tops the field in terns of capacity and shootability.

There are a whole list of things that must go right in relation to one another else your left holding a paperweight.

Yet most people who must carry a handgun in what may become life or death situations carry semi-autos these days. The exceptions involve large animals.

 

[shafter]

Revolvers are a link in the evolutionary chain of firearms development. They aren't useless but they've been eclipsed by new technology.

Revolvers shooters can be quite nostalgic and point to the old time legends who carried them, not realizing that they were carried because they were the best available at the time.

 

[Styx]

They were never issued for military use.
Why would anyone think so?

Yes, I'm aware, but the point I was trying to make was they too wouldn't fit in that role.

Carriers have aways been able to choose. A full-size semi, should one choose one for EDC, tops the field in terns of capacity and shootability.

People still have the choice to carry most type of handguns I agree. The fact still remains that duty sized double stacks have fallen out of favor from their popularity over a decade ago, and single stacks, micro 9mm's, mouse guns, and small revolvers have replaced them. The vast majority of the market perfers smaller and lighter carry guns or even micro 9mm's with similar capacity to fullsize pistols.

I don't think traditional fullsize pistols are obsolete for carry, but there could be an valid argument made that they are with the introduction of the P365 and the like series of pistols where many say they have a lighter more concealable carry gun that has the same capacity as traditional fullsize double stacks.

Yet most people who must carry a handgun in what may become life or death situations carry semi-autos these days. The exceptions involve large animals.

True I agree that they're much more popular than revolvers. I can't argue with that. I still believe there are pros and cons that each platform has, and both still have their role when it comes to carry. IIRC, over a million revolvers are sold annually. Not a lot in comparison to pistols but it's still a lot of revolvers regularly being sold.

 

[CDW4ME]

Umm, last I checked the Hellcat and P365 are slightly smaller, and can also just as easily be pocket carried. You're assertions people are choosing J-frames over micro 9mm or even 380acp semiautos ONLY because they can pocket carry J-frames and then going on to accuse them of being dishonest about it when they tell you that's that the case is completely wrong on your part.
View attachment 1150782

"Being able to put it in pocket and not have to "dress around" a gun is why many select a snub, they just don't easily admit it..."

What is that word in bold? It is a disclaimer, clarifier. Not everybody, "many" which is less than most.
I did not "accuse" anybody. If you identify as one of the "many" that is up to you not me.

Your size comparison is great! Problem is, when you talk size some people change it to shape, then it is about shape.
Note: I said some not most or all.
For the record, I don't carry revolvers. Why? Because a semi auto is more advantageous as I already stated.

 

[chicharrones]

Umm, last I checked the Hellcat and P365 are slightly smaller, and can also just as easily be pocket carried. You're assertions people are choosing J-frames over micro 9mm or even 380acp semiautos ONLY because they can pocket carry J-frames and then going on to accuse them of being dishonest about it when they tell you that's that the case is completely wrong on your part.
View attachment 1150782

"Being able to put it in pocket and not have to "dress around" a gun is why many select a snub, they just don't easily admit it..."

What is that word in bold? It is a disclaimer, clarifier. Not everybody, "many" which is less than most.
I did not "accuse" anybody. If you identify as one of the "many" that is up to you not me.

Your size comparison is great! Problem is, when you talk size some people change it to shape, then it is about shape.
Note: I said some not most or all.
For the record, I don't carry revolvers. Why? Because a semi auto is more advantageous as I already stated.

Shape can be very important in the draw from a pocket. In my experience, a same length and height spurless hammer snub revolver draws easier from the pocket than a same length and height autoloader.

Since there is no slide and frame over the hand, drawing from a pocket could be the main practical reason that snub revolvers are still being purchased by knowledgeable gun folks.

 

[Pat Riot]

Hell, I’ll admit to dressing around my gun. I carry a snub often because I want to and I am confident with it. It’s my decision. No one else’s. If I get attacked by a gang of hooligans while carrying my snub nose it’s probably because I wasn’t in condition yellow…which never happens.
I also carry a Glock 48, but if it’s warm and I am in shorts or light clothes I carry the snubbie and a couple speed strips or speedloaders and life is good.

I used to work in the most dangerous neighborhoods on the west coast for years. I could not carry a gun. I think I know how to carry myself and watch for danger.

 

[WisBorn]

Shape can be very important in the draw from a pocket. In my experience, a same length and height spurless hammer snub revolver draws easier from the pocket than a same length and height autoloader.

Since there is no slide and frame over the hand, drawing from a pocket could be the main practical reason that snub revolvers are still being purchased by knowledgeable gun folks.

I have to agree! The spurless hammer design, such as a 442/642 centennial is very easy to pocket carry. The rounder shape rotates out of the pocket easier than a micro compact nine. Smaller auto loaders like a LCP work well, but only because they are considerably smaller than the j frame size revolvers.

 

[Kleanbore]

The spurless hammer design, such as a 442/642 centennial is very easy to pocket carry.

An NAA .22 is even easier, but that does not make either one what I would want to have with me were I to need it.

Also, pocket carry is not for me.

 

[shafter]

I hope anyone who pocket carries practices their draw from weapon retention positions. In a grappling situation putting your hand in your pocket is a bad idea. You may not ever take it back out.

 

[CDW4ME]

Your size comparison is great! Problem is, when you talk size some people change it to shape, then it is about shape.

Shape can be very important in the draw from a pocket.

 

[Pat Riot]

I hope anyone who pocket carries practices their draw from weapon retention positions. In a grappling situation putting your hand in your pocket is a bad idea. You may not ever take it back out.

Very good points. Just for kicks I tried drawing my 442 from my right front pocket sitting in my car and truck. No dice on either, which is why the gun comes out of the pocket in the car.

Occasionally I will ankle carry my model 36 and pocket carry the 442. It depends on where I am going. I don’t do that all the time. And only when wearing pants, obviously.

 

[Kleanbore]

I hope anyone who pocket carries practices their draw from weapon retention positions.

And sitting, and walking....

 

[fastbolt]

The sunset of the days of the service revolver coincided with a lessening of overall handgunning skills among new LE shooters. Learning to shoot a DA revolver, especially if chambered in a Magnum caliber, requires a lot more of the shooter than using a semiauto pistol. That said, it became easier to train new shooters on pistols, overall. Lighter and shorter trigger pulls helped getting groups of new shooters up to speed, if nothing else. Easier (re)loading manipulation, to a degree, also helped.

Interestingly, it also revealed that it was often easier to transition a DA revolver shooter over to pistols, than the other way around.

Yes, revolvers are still relevant for personal defense. Whether or not the current crop of pistol users are capable of effectively shooting DA revolvers? That's a different question, entirely.

 

[trackskippy]

I hope anyone who pocket carries practices their draw from weapon retention positions. In a grappling situation putting your hand in your pocket is a bad idea. You may not ever take it back out.

And sitting, and walking....

Other than everyone who pocket carries always seems to want to tell you that they "always" have their hand on their gun, I really dont think theres any thought given to things beyond that.

And we all now, people arent walking around every second of the day with their hand on their gun. Nor is everyone walking around with full situational awareness, or even in "yellow" every second of the day. And that alone and what goes on there, is a whole other load that could go on for pages.

To me, pocket carry is one of the worst ways to carry. It limits pretty much everything to do with carrying a gun, if youre serious about carrying a gun. It limits the gun you carry, and your ability to respond to "anything" you might have to. It limits how you carry the gun and your "quick" access to it, under all conditions, but especially when things get close and energetic.

I fully understand "compromise", but compromise generally means "you" give up something to suit others, and its generally not in your best interests to do so.

The simplest test here to see if the pocket gun is the right choice, is to shoot a couple of the same courses of fire that you would normally choose a full size gun to shoot with. Both guns have to work here, there are no alibis, handicaps, and/or excuses. Unless youre willing to deceive yourself and live with the obvious shortcomings and "compromises".

We dont get to choose what we get, that's the big advantage to the other side. We get to deal with what we get, when we happen to get it, no matter what it is. Just because you were "only" going to the stop and rob for a six pack and you live in a good neighborhood, and nothing bad "ever" happens, and tonight you get a bunch of out of town gangbangers who happen to stop in while youre there and figure its as good a place as any....

 

[mcb]

For me pocket carry is more about levering surprise more than speed. It makes you extremely dependent on situational awareness since you are going to be slow at drawing but in theory if it comes as a surprise that can turn the situation to your advantage. Yes there are lots of ifs in there and if you yourself are surprised or in a situation that needs a fast draw you are SOL. Pocket carry is not as capable as other both due to the draw and the guns typically pocket carried. It is a compromise, easier carry, less capable. I personally like vest pocket carry, slightly faster draw than pants pocket, very comfortable in a comfortable vest, and having your hands in your vest pockets is less suspicion looking than hands going into pants pockets.

*by vest I am not talking about a "shoot me vest" with a million pockets but something more conventional and plain.

 

[shafter]

Other than everyone who pocket carries always seems to want to tell you that they "always" have their hand on their gun, I really dont think theres any thought given to things beyond that.

And we all now, people arent walking around every second of the day with their hand on their gun. Nor is everyone walking around with full situational awareness, or even in "yellow" every second of the day. And that alone and what goes on there, is a whole other load that could go on for pages.

To me, pocket carry is one of the worst ways to carry. It limits pretty much everything to do with carrying a gun, if youre serious about carrying a gun. It limits the gun you carry, and your ability to respond to "anything" you might have to. It limits how you carry the gun and your "quick" access to it, under all conditions, but especially when things get close and energetic.

I fully understand "compromise", but compromise generally means "you" give up something to suit others, and its generally not in your best interests to do so.

The simplest test here to see if the pocket gun is the right choice, is to shoot a couple of the same courses of fire that you would normally choose a full size gun to shoot with. Both guns have to work here, there are no alibis, handicaps, and/or excuses. Unless youre willing to deceive yourself and live with the obvious shortcomings and "compromises".

We dont get to choose what we get, that's the big advantage to the other side. We get to deal with what we get, when we happen to get it, no matter what it is. Just because you were "only" going to the stop and rob for a six pack and you live in a good neighborhood, and nothing bad "ever" happens, and tonight you get a bunch of out of town gangbangers who happen to stop in while youre there and figure its as good a place as any....

I'm not talking about walking around with a hand on the gun. I'm talking about once the fight is about to begin or has begun. Shooting from the pocket is a bad idea because it's only useful at very close range and if someone is within that distance I need my hand out of my pocket. The bad guy isn't going to be just standing there, they're going to be attacking you and once your hand goes in your pocket you've given the bad guy a gift; he can now easily control that arm.

 

[WisBorn]

And sitting, and walking....

And that is so easy to do with AIWB carry. And not shooting yourself in the junk

 

[trackskippy]

I'm not talking about walking around with a hand on the gun. I'm talking about once the fight is about to begin or has begun. Shooting from the pocket is a bad idea because it's only useful at very close range and if someone is within that distance I need my hand out of my pocket. The bad guy isn't going to be just standing there, they're going to be attacking you and once your hand goes in your pocket you've given the bad guy a gift; he can now easily control that arm.

I understood exacltly what you were getting at, and Ive said the exact same thing a number of times here in other threads and fully agree.

And that is so easy to do with AIWB carry. And not shooting yourself in the junk

It is, and no junk damaged to boot.

If youve never tried it, you really should. Otherwise, how do you know what youre missing?

 

[Japle]

There are two guns I use in my local weekly pistol league matches, a much-modified STI 9mm and a S&W 327 5" revolver.
The STI has a 2 lb trigger and the 327 action is very light and smooth with just a hint of a pause before the trigger breaks. I shoot them about equally well, but if I had to choose one for a shoot-off, I'd probably go with the wheelgun.
However, I carry a Shield Plus daily. 14 rounds vs 6 or 7 and in a smaller, lighter package = no contest.

 

[InTheSwamp]

Revolvers will be relevant for as long as firearms are relevant.

 

[amd6547]

When I was young and starting my handgun journey, I thought revolvers were obsolete… I used to laugh at the old school Cleveland cops I saw, with their worn, scarred Model 10’s. I had the certainty of youth that my Browning HiPower was superior.
I still shoot and carry autos. But, if the only handgun I owned was my 4” pre-Model 10, I would feel very well armed. That having been said, a 3” GP100 357 is in my carry rotation.

 

[Pat Riot]

And we all now, people arent walking around every second of the day with their hand on their gun.

Do you?

Nor is everyone walking around with full situational awareness, or even in "yellow" every second of the day.

And how do you know this?

Seriously, I would like to know.