Match Fees?

[Kynoch]

Capitalism. Supply and demand. What the market will bear. The fact that some matches are being run at or below costs does not mean others need to be run with the same lack of profit.

I'd happily pay more for a well run match 30 minutes away compared with a poorly run match 2 hours or more away. I also happily pay more for matches when the organizers are very kind to new shooters, women, and children. Making my guests feel welcome is important to me. I'm also happy to pay more for matches that communicate clearly what to expect, rules, etc.

In the big scheme of things, the match fee is much less than the costs of ammo, equipment, and transportation. I do not mind paying more for a quality experience.

Bull manure. #1 -- you don't know that lower priced matches are money losers. #2 -- you have no idea how many shooters would actually show-up to shoot if the price were $10.00 vs. $30.00/shooters. The variable costs per match amount to very little -- paint, paper targets -- most are sunk costs. It might well be that 5x shooters would show up and if the capacity is there, even more $$$ could be generated by lowering fees. #3 -- qualities like being kind to others, clear communication, etc. are not (or at least should not be) functions of the match fee amount.

#4 -- justifying the price of a match based on the cost of other shooting-related expenses simply makes no sense. For some reloaders who live very close to the range and do their own gunsmithing, these expenses might be very low in relationship to $30.00 match fees. To others they might be less so. Either way it doesn't justify high match prices.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

<deleted>

It's a free country. They can charge what they want.

You are free to participate or not.

No one needs to justify it to you.

 

[allaroundhunter]

All I am seeing in this thread are cheap matches. Most 3 gun monthly matches I shoot cost $30-$50 and major matches are between $200-$325 with most being about $275. Add in the driving cost for both monthly and major matches and lodging for major matches and it is crazy expensive...

 

[Sam1911]

Bull manure. #1 -- you don't know...

Look, you seem like you've got a rebuttal to almost every suggestion -- you're sure of everything except WHY they charge what they do.

At this point, it hardly seems like you're interested in the actual reasons. You're just mad and have some personal axe to grind about clubs charging more than whatever you think they "should."

Either ask and find out, or stop with the self-assured refutations of everyone else's answers.

 

[Robert]

If you think the local matches are overpriced god forbid you try to shoot a national level match.

Or go work a match and see all the time that volunteers put in to run it. As an Assistant Match Director I would arrive before dawn some days to start setting up our little 4 stage match. I did this for free because I love getting people out to shoot something than paper off a bench. That money goes to the club to help cover things like insurance and monthly expenses. Steel targets do not replace themselves so factor that in too, because I guarantee some yahoo will shoot steel core at a target and ruin it for everyone. AR500 targets are not cheap.

But you've already been given these and other accurate answers and it appears that all you want to argue and complain. So I guess if you find them to be a waste of money don't shoot the match. That will show them...

 

[Trent]

Bull manure. #1 -- you don't know that lower priced matches are money losers. #2 -- you have no idea how many shooters would actually show-up to shoot if the price were $10.00 vs. $30.00/shooters. The variable costs per match amount to very little -- paint, paper targets -- most are sunk costs. It might well be that 5x shooters would show up and if the capacity is there, even more $$$ could be generated by lowering fees. #3 -- qualities like being kind to others, clear communication, etc. are not (or at least should not be) functions of the match fee amount.

Ok. Let's examine this.

If you think matches are "too expensive", do what I did.

Start your own and pay for everything out of pocket.

(MAN, was that a stupid idea.)

And we're just shooting paper targets on high power matches. $10 a head.

I wasn't bright enough to get a committee formed at our gun club so that costs were covered by the club, proper. I simply got approval by the board to run my own rifle matches on the first Sunday of the month... it's not technically a club sanctioned event because the way the motion was passed, there's no committee to report to, the club doesn't defray or cover any costs. It all comes out of my pocket.

I'd figured targets would be our biggest expense, and based our pricing for High Power matches on NRA fees and target expenses.

AND... I lost my behind this year on it; nearly $700 out of pocket in losses and still accumulating. Because the matches are NRA approved and the program is PUBLISHED for 2014, I can't *change* anything (including match fees) until Jan 2015.

SOOO many expenses (including shipping costs) that I didn't factor in on targets. Targets are cheap (SR targets are about a buck a pop). Shipping them... not so cheap. They're really damn big boxes, when you're talking about SR targets for high power.

Then came the plywood costs because we were shooting up the stands. Didn't want the club to complain. Plywood isn't cheap.

Of course, to run an NRA approved match, I have to make sure there's safety gear available for people. Empty chamber indicators. Spare shooting glasses and hearing protection in case a competitor forgets theirs, after a three or four hour drive. Water / Gatorade in the summer so people don't get heat stroke. Porta-potty costs in the winter months because the plumbing gets shut down when the first hard frost hits, and I've got people on the line shooting for 8-10 hours; the nearest public restroom is 20 minutes away...

And then goofy stupid stuff. This year ticks got bad, real bad, and it was putting our shoot at risk. Insecticide on the rifle range. Because we lay in the grass, and normal members shoot off benches, it was our problem.

Then, getting rid of ME as a "single point of failure." Cost me over $250 to get CRSO certified and in materials costs to train up a couple of NRA RSO's.

Then, marksmanship awards. Hell, I didn't realize the NRA wanted $6 a certificate packet to give new shooters entry-level marksmanship ratings, so they aren't perpetually "marksman" for two years, while they learn. It keeps people coming back to know there's a new rating waiting for them.

Oh, then the real big kicker. INSURANCE.

Because we're not a sponsored club event *MY* instructor insurance has to cover the group and the event. I have to carry a completely separate $2 million dollar liability policy to insure the range AND myself for these shoots. That's not exactly cheap.

And all of this isn't even counting my time. I can't SHOOT in these events because I'm an "NRA official" - all I can do is keep the circus running, and I spend 14 hours a month doing "match related stuff" (including extra time doing stuff outside of actually running matches).

I don't get reimbursed for any of that time. I don't GET anything out of that time (unless, sometimes, if there's enough daylight left, I patch up targets that shooters have left behind, and do low-light shooting before I head out for the night to get some practice in).

It's 100% a personal sacrifice.

Yeah, people that complain about match entry fees, who haven't ever worked a damn day putting one of these events together, or what goes in to everything behind the scenes, really irritate me. It's a LOT of work (largely thankless work), with no tangible personal reward - and a heck of a lot of risk.

With that, I'm out of this conversation, I won't be able to stay high road at this rate.

If you don't want to shoot a $30 match, *don't*. Go find a $10 match to shoot. (Just hope it's run safely, and professionally.... sometimes you do get what you pay for.)

MY match fees are going up next year, and I don't feel bad about it at all. I want to keep giving shooters a good experience, but I can't take money away from my family next year while doing it.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Well put, Trent. Since I've served as an NRA instructor and have had an inside view of many of these events, I know you are describing things accurately. Thanks for your hard work and sacrifice keeping it all going. I know I always appreciate having well run matches to attend and take interested shooters.

 

[Kynoch]

<deleted>

It's a free country. They can charge what they want.

You are free to participate or not.

No one needs to justify it to you.

Once again that's a non value added retort. I'm not sure why you would even make it?

I really would like to know why some ranges charge $10 for an IDPA match and some charge $30.00 or more? I really would like to know why some charge $30.00 for a USPSA match and $10 for an NSSF Action Rimfire Match on the same range using the same equipment.

Given your retort you obviously don't know.

 

[Kynoch]

If you think the local matches are overpriced god forbid you try to shoot a national level match.

Is that meant to justify the price of a $30.00 match when the same match elsewhere is $10?

Or go work a match and see all the time that volunteers put in to run it. As an Assistant Match Director I would arrive before dawn some days to start setting up our little 4 stage match. I did this for free because I love getting people out to shoot something than paper off a bench. That money goes to the club to help cover things like insurance and monthly expenses. Steel targets do not replace themselves so factor that in too, because I guarantee some yahoo will shoot steel core at a target and ruin it for everyone. AR500 targets are not cheap.

What makes you think I don't volunteer? Interesting conclusions. All those costs you mention are common where I shoot yet different matches are vastly different in price.

But you've already been given these and other accurate answers and it appears that all you want to argue and complain. So I guess if you find them to be a waste of money don't shoot the match. That will show them...

You're simply wrong. You talk about costs yet they're the same for many matches where I shoot yet the price charged differs greatly. No one (except for those pointing out that some matches have a ~$2-4 fee/shooter) has dared tried to answer that. They just do what you did -- mention common costs.

 

[Kynoch]

Ok. Let's examine this.

If you think matches are "too expensive", do what I did.

Start your own and pay for everything out of pocket.

(MAN, was that a stupid idea.)

And we're just shooting paper targets on high power matches. $10 a head.

I wasn't bright enough to get a committee formed at our gun club so that costs were covered by the club, proper. I simply got approval by the board to run my own rifle matches on the first Sunday of the month... it's not technically a club sanctioned event because the way the motion was passed, there's no committee to report to, the club doesn't defray or cover any costs. It all comes out of my pocket.

I'd figured targets would be our biggest expense, and based our pricing for High Power matches on NRA fees and target expenses.

AND... I lost my behind this year on it; nearly $700 out of pocket in losses and still accumulating. Because the matches are NRA approved and the program is PUBLISHED for 2014, I can't *change* anything (including match fees) until Jan 2015.

SOOO many expenses (including shipping costs) that I didn't factor in on targets. Targets are cheap (SR targets are about a buck a pop). Shipping them... not so cheap. They're really damn big boxes, when you're talking about SR targets for high power.

Then came the plywood costs because we were shooting up the stands. Didn't want the club to complain. Plywood isn't cheap.

Of course, to run an NRA approved match, I have to make sure there's safety gear available for people. Empty chamber indicators. Spare shooting glasses and hearing protection in case a competitor forgets theirs, after a three or four hour drive. Water / Gatorade in the summer so people don't get heat stroke. Porta-potty costs in the winter months because the plumbing gets shut down when the first hard frost hits, and I've got people on the line shooting for 8-10 hours; the nearest public restroom is 20 minutes away...

And then goofy stupid stuff. This year ticks got bad, real bad, and it was putting our shoot at risk. Insecticide on the rifle range. Because we lay in the grass, and normal members shoot off benches, it was our problem.

Then, getting rid of ME as a "single point of failure." Cost me over $250 to get CRSO certified and in materials costs to train up a couple of NRA RSO's.

Then, marksmanship awards. Hell, I didn't realize the NRA wanted $6 a certificate packet to give new shooters entry-level marksmanship ratings, so they aren't perpetually "marksman" for two years, while they learn. It keeps people coming back to know there's a new rating waiting for them.

Oh, then the real big kicker. INSURANCE.

Because we're not a sponsored club event *MY* instructor insurance has to cover the group and the event. I have to carry a completely separate $2 million dollar liability policy to insure the range AND myself for these shoots. That's not exactly cheap.

And all of this isn't even counting my time. I can't SHOOT in these events because I'm an "NRA official" - all I can do is keep the circus running, and I spend 14 hours a month doing "match related stuff" (including extra time doing stuff outside of actually running matches).

I don't get reimbursed for any of that time. I don't GET anything out of that time (unless, sometimes, if there's enough daylight left, I patch up targets that shooters have left behind, and do low-light shooting before I head out for the night to get some practice in).

It's 100% a personal sacrifice.

Yeah, people that complain about match entry fees, who haven't ever worked a damn day putting one of these events together, or what goes in to everything behind the scenes, really irritate me. It's a LOT of work (largely thankless work), with no tangible personal reward - and a heck of a lot of risk.

With that, I'm out of this conversation, I won't be able to stay high road at this rate.

If you don't want to shoot a $30 match, *don't*. Go find a $10 match to shoot. (Just hope it's run safely, and professionally.... sometimes you do get what you pay for.)

MY match fees are going up next year, and I don't feel bad about it at all. I want to keep giving shooters a good experience, but I can't take money away from my family next year while doing it.

Let's try this again...

I compete at a shooting complex with several individual shooting venues. Fixed, overhead costs like insurance, utilities, taxes (if there are even any) are common across all the shooting venues. Yet match costs differ from $5.00 for a muzzleloading black powder match (which uses both steel and paper targets) to $30.00 for a USPSA/IDPA match on another venue.

Further, at the venue that hosts USPSA/IDPA matches, Action Rimfire matches are half the price or less of the USPDA/IDPA matches even though it's the exact same venue, steel, paint, shot timers, etc. etc. Steel Challenge matches cost 75% of the IDPA/USPSA matches. The single difference is the paper used for the IDPA/USPSA matches.

Still further, input from this thread confirms that other ranges/clubs charge ~$10.00 for IDPA/USPSA matches. I simply wanted to know why there is such disparity in match pricing?

 

[Trent]

I simply wanted to know why there is such disparity in match pricing?

Well, the most obvious answer is going to be "go ask the organizers" ??

Action Rimfire might be getting to use the setup, just because it's there, without charging as much because they aren't responsible for maintaining it, or maybe they're shooting during non-peak times, or maybe it's "members only" whereas the other event is for guests. Maybe they have no advertising costs and the other does?

Even if they're using the same courses of fire, it's possible one group is freeloading on the infrastructure while the *other* group is responsible for maintaining it and replacing it. (Aside from the obvious fact that centerfire is MUCH harder on target stands and poppers than rimfire...)

Maybe .. they just charge more because they can? ("Hey, we built a race track, and you guys can rent it on the weekdays for $5,000 a day; but if you want to rent the *exact same* track for the weekend, with exactly the same costs to the track for corner workers, etc, it's $20,000 a day; e.g. Road America in Wisconsin).

I dunno. I just see you venting here, and that got me venting back. Nothing personal.

The thing is, we can only guess at the reasons.

If you want to know the reasons, ask someone who knows.

This conversation was good, because it does illustrate some of the "things you wouldn't normally think about" that goes in to the logistics behind competitive shooting.

But we need to keep it on track there for it to be of any value to anyone.

Venting (while satisfying sometimes) doesn't really advance that understanding for the rest.

Anyway, like I said, nothing personal. We all need to pop a cork out sometimes and just say "ARGH!" ... but we also gotta know when to take what we've learned and apply it.

You're well armed now for a discussion with range /match directors. Go forth and ask, and debate. New shooting year is coming up, and you MIGHT just sway them, if you think they're gouging. (E.g. they have no good reason or explanation)

 

[9mmepiphany]

After 3 pages of rather informative, at least to me, facts about how much it takes to put on shooting events, I think we have about covered the subject.

I'm going to shut this thread down as we're not going to get any further unless the OP actually goes an asks the organizers, that he feels are overcharging, why they charge what they do.

If he does that, he can contact me and I'll reopen the thread for him to post that information.