maximum accuracy-point shooting

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couldbeanyone

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Do we have any point shooters here? I was just kind of wondering how accurate you are when point shooting. How far can you hit point shooting.
My Grandfather, back when I was young, was absolutely deadly with a slingshot. Not a wrist rocket, but a homemade one. He made them from a fork from a tree branch, some string, strips of live rubber as he called it, and a piece of leather from an old boot. I watched him shoot countless squirrels out of trees. He also killed many, many snakes and turtles with only their heads sticking out of the water. He very, very seldom missed. He would challenge people to shoot against him with a .22 rifle. He would stick matchsticks in the ground at about 15 yards and then they would see who could hit the most the fastest. He always won. Of course he told me he had the advantage as the large rocks he shot still hit the match even if his aim was off by a little.
It seems that a man point shooting a handgun should be able to match an old man with a home-made slingshot. I have not been able to though.:eek:
 
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Excellent topic. I'm new to handguns; are there any simple drills to learn point shooting? Does point shooting mean keeping both eyes open and shooting fast, or is there more to it?
 
Point-shooting is all about practice.

Given enough practice, you can become quite proficient, but you have to maintain that proficiency after attaining it, and it only partially transfers to other guns. I try to get in some point-shooting practice in most range trips, but I'm not practicing every week/day and it isn't always with a carry gun (if it isn't a carry gun, it is generally a .22lr pistol, often a Walther/Umarex P22, sometimes a Ruger mkIII)

With that level of basic proficiency, I generally start out able to get reliable hits in a 12" circle (7-10 yards) and improve a bit from there - some pistols fit my hand better than others and will lead to what looks like lousy sighted groups, some pistols resist my attempts and never improve - want to guess which group of pistols get holsters, extra magazines and carry ammo?

With an unlimited supply of ammo and range time, I suppose that a skilled shooter could get to a level of point-shooting proficiency that would rival sighted fire, with a given gun. But as far as I'm concerned point-shooting is for when you need to snap off a shot NOW and is part of the draw and presentation portion of defensive shooting. A serious defensive shooter should be able to put two rounds into a torso-sized target reliably BEFORE the sights are in front of his/her eyes ... possibly during a reload, if you brought the weapon in close to slap in a new mag and overhand the slide, you might need to pop off that freshly chambered round before the gun was out in that "proper" spot again, with a flash sight picture at best.
I don't point-shoot for a parlor trick or to see how well point-shooting can be done, it is a stopgap way to get rounds on target in between the holster and a "proper" firing stance/sight picture. Holding a gun out in front of me and not using the sights would be unnatural ... I can line up the sights and get rounds off faster and more accurately, although a dedicated shooter might be able to do better with extreme PS practice.
 
I was just kind of wondering how accurate you are when point shooting.

Not as accurate as when using sighted fire.


How far can you hit point shooting.

Not as far as when using sighted fire.

It seems that a man point shooting a handgun should be able to match an old man with a home-made slingshot.

Perhaps, but a man using sighted fire will most certainly beat him.

I know this is under the general discussion of handguns and not S&T, but what is your goal? Just to see if you can hit something without using the sights or to make hits quickly, as that would be two different questions.

Theoretically, with enough practice you could make hits while point shooting at surprising distances. Now, is the amount of practice that would require put to better use becoming faster and more accurate at sighted fire? If that is the question, I would say, "Absolutely."
 
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jscott hit the nail on the head. Point shooting is fine if I have to shoot from retention, but it will never beat well aimed fire. If I am able to transition into a standard shooting stance then I am going to use aimed fire. I have trained with both and the use and accuracy of point shooting is far more limited than aimed fire.
 
Any "point shooting" where you put the gun up in front of your eyes and on the target is still aimed fire, IMO. It is just a matter of degree how finely you aim. "Hip" shooting, "retention position" shooting or whatever term you wish to apply is more true point shooting, requiring some sort of body position index, the gun not being visible. Since many gunfights do happen at just a few feet, they are all skills worth acquiring.
 
jscott posted
I know this is under the general discussion of handguns and not S&T, but what is your goal? Just to see if you can hit something without using the sights or to make hits quickly, as that would be two different questions.
Even though I do have a carry permit and usually have a gun on me, I don't sit around and worry about strategies and tactics. I live in rural Oklahoma and crime here is just not a major concern. I do however do a large amount of plinking, fishing, and hunting.
Being over 50 years old, my eyesight is definitely going south. Getting a good sight picture on a turtles head with a handgun is becoming near impossible. Also, a snake can get into the water in a mighty big hurry. I have missed taking countless shots on pests because of not being able to get a good sight picture fast enough.
I guess I am trying to find a way to hit faster, as well as accurately, without having to take a "stance" with eyesight that can't focus on handgun sights anymore. If I could equal Grandpa's slingshot accuracy with a handgun that would be more than sufficient. His ability to hit while still walking was impressive as well. Of course i'm sure the fact that he had a slingshot in his pocket from the time he was a boy until the time he died at 80 had a little to do with it.
I guess I just wanted to know what was the best anyone here could do and how they gained that proficiency. I also wondered if it was partly the difference between the motions of pointing a handgun and shooting a slingshot.
 
Thanks for the clarification. Taking the S&T out of it, as I am truly not an advocate of such a technique aside from retention position/gun grab distance (which I don't really think meets the definition of point shooting)....

Anyway, with practice you can become quite proficient at point shooting at the distances described (within 15 yards). The primary thing that I would do is ensure that my chosen firearm "points" well. To test it out, pick a spot on the wall ~10 yards away or so. Close your eyes and present your weapon on target, visualizing the sights as nearly as possible on the target. Open your eyes and determine how far off your sights are. If your weapon is on target or nearly so than your weapon points well for you. That is key.

Secondly, ensure that you present the weapon the same way every time. Practice your stance, grip, and draw an infinite number of times, likely the way your Grandfather did. If your grip changes even slightly your point of impact is going to be off. As with any other type of shooting, fundamentals are key.

Finally, perform the live fire shooting. You will soon find that you are dialing in those shots better than expected. I would present the weapon as nearly as possible to the same point that I would as if using sighted fire, that is fully extended in front of you at eye level.

I would continue practicing all three above. 1) Presenting weapon with eyes closed and then opening your eyes to confirm point of aim 2) Consistently focus on your presentation and grip 3) Live fire practice which affirms your fundamentals.

You will soon be getting close to your intended target, but becoming an "expert" at very accurate point shooting will take a significant amount of time and effort. It is for that reason that when talking S&T, I truly advocate fast, aimed fire. I believe that the practice time is better spent. But since that is not your goal and you have physical limitations that would perhaps hinder such methodologies, I would suggest the outline above.

As far as the motions involved with steadying a handgun vs a slingshot, they are actually quite similiar. A key in preventing or at least significantly reducing perceived wobble is the push/pull involved in two handed shooting with a handgun. A firm grip in which the weapon hand pushes while the support hand pulls steadies the weapon and therefore aids accuracy. Though your strong hand would be pulling the sling to the rear while the support hand (in this case the one holding the device) would be pushing out the concept is the same - placing an active opposing force on the handgun/slingshot to steady the device.
 
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Excellent topic. I'm new to handguns; are there any simple drills to learn point shooting? Does point shooting mean keeping both eyes open and shooting fast, or is there more to it?

There is more to it.

The easiest/cheapest way to learn to point shoot is to correctly learn sighted fire...you'll never be able to hit consistently without correct trigger control. Once you've learned trigger control, you can start expending huge amounts of ammo to determine where you gun is pointing when it is outside of you line of sight.

The finest pointshooter...shooting from the hip...I've ever seen could hit a tin can out beyond 25 yards. But when he wanted to put a quick accurate shot on a man sized target at 5-7 yards, he brought the gun up to eye level and used the sights
 
I've got something to add to this. I've practiced it for years after hearing the Mossad did it, knowing the old gunslingers did it, and seeing a guy point shoot a Luger blind folded (it has the best ergonomics supposedly and facilitates point shooting easily due to hand-eye coordination). He aimed first and got his position, then did a point shoot and hit the target, then did it again from the same position but blindfolded. Same mark.

Believe it or not, for lack of an easier way of putting it, your eyes work kind of like a built in laser sight. Really, they do. When you think about it, we evolved over thousands of years shooting arrows and throwing rocks and spears, what do you think this all was? It was all point shooting to some degree. It all depended on hand-eye coordination.

There really is no trick to it. Yeah practice helps, but you know what? Playing video games will increase hand-eye coordination very well, and this is more important with point shooting I would argue. It is also really best for close range, and having a flat shooting round really helps. A lot. I do well with 124gr. 9mm and 200gr. 10mm rounds. Others work, but those shoot like laser beams for short ranges.

To practice, you can use your unloaded pistol and holster. Fix your sight on a target somewhere across the room, I pick a very small target, but that comes from the army, aiming at buttons instead of center mass, aim small miss small or whatever. So I'll focus on a light switch or some such and draw fast --then freeze. Without moving your hand, look behind the sights. You should be right on target or very close to it. Close enough for CQB, again, if you aim at a button and miss by an inch or two, you are still COM. The whole time, from the draw to the pull, you are fixated on the small target, never looking at the weapon or sights.

Now when bad things happen, they happen fast. The adrenaline kicks in and most people jump up and down when they shoot, particularly when caught in the open. Even trained cops, I've seen too many videos of it. What it looks like to me, is they were trained to aim, probably great shooters at the range, but when it went down, they were already taking rounds and didn't have the time to aim or take cover, just return fire. They panic when their training fails, and do stupid stuff like jumping up and down. Obviously the rounds they returned weren't going anywhere near the intended target.

With point shooting, as soon as you are unholstered, focused on the target, and have the weapon where you want it (some folks shoot from the hip, the fastest way to pull the shot, some go halfway up, some fully extend the arm --I'm sort of in the middle of halfway and fully extended) you engage the target. Fast. The way I do it and the fully extended method help make the following shots aimed shots, but I've seen a guy shoot from the hip, the middle, fully extended, and then the fourth and later shots are aimed shots. All were on center. I think this guy was a SEAL doing reflex training or something on a Science Channel documentary.

My advice is to try it at home like I said. Know that it may take practice to hold the pistol in such a fashion that the hand -eye coordination works. The Luger is supposed to be natural. The 1911 not bad either. The Glock, as I remember it, is off 20% compared to the Luger or 1911 grip angle, and it makes gripping it awkward for point shooting for some. But the Glock is my perferred weapon and I use it just fine. Essentially what you want, is for the sights to line up with you forearm when you hold it. If you don't do that at a minimum, it may not work so well. Since firearms are brought up, I'd like to say I've had the most difficulty doing this with a DA trigger pull. I always pull the shot to the side with a heavy, long trigger, like a Beretta or Sig. But maybe that is just me, I don't know.

I'm sure there are books on it, but the technique is so natural and built into us that all you really need is a basic understanding of how it works, a little practice, and good hand-eye coordination. This can be built up a number of ways, but outside of shooting, video games and pitching baseballs come to mind. It is kind of like muscle memory training, but much more natural. Muscle memory is training the body to do something somewhat unnatural and/or complex rapidly without thinking. Point shooting is just training the body to do what it already does naturally, ie, the more you do it the better you get. And dry firing at home works just fine for this, just fine.

If I only knew one method of pistol fighting, this would likely be it, since most encounters are over after the first shot or two from a sufficient calibre to the COM, because they happen fast and at close range, and because the person that shoots first usually wins.

With rifles, we used to do this some in the army. For clearing a small room and say you are an SDM with an ACOG. Those top iron sights suck, and the mini reflex didn't exist then. So we trained to aim down the side of the barrel --sort of-- it was more like point shooting and using the barrel to complete a triangle formed by the target, the barrel, and your head. A little more complex, but doable at short distance for which it was intended. SAW gunners also held their SAWs like RPGs with the stock on the shoulder and aim down the side of the barrel in a similar way. Usually the smaller guys that had the older, longer ones used this method. I could shoulder a SAW no problem, and those Mk46's made it even easier. Still, in close range, sometimes it is best to use just the front sight of a rifle. Lots of different methods for different shooters and scenarios.

Good topic to bring up. Well aimed shots are always talked about, but in reality, for self defense shooting, there simply isn't time in every scenario. Well executed point shooting will put the shots on target fast and more accurate than you'd think. I think it is a good tool to have for the conceal carry crowd in particular, and most useful with semi pistols in general that are comfortable and have a fairly quick trigger.
 
You will do as you practice.

However, I would bet that 90% of us will "point shoot" when confronted with an attacker at, say, 20 feet. The "need for speed" will induce you to fire before you acquire sights.

In cowboy action shooting, we shoot large targets as close as 15 feet. I will shoot these "instinctively/point shoot" as fast as most can do the "sighted method". Point shooting can explained as being aware of the barrel/front sight and pointing it instinctively. Kinda like shooting a recurve bow. No sights.Instinctively.
 
It depends on how much you practice.

At one point, I shot several hundred rounds a month, for a year or so, practicing drawing & hitting a hand tossed coffee can in the air.

Using a 1917 S&W .45 ACP revolver, I could put six holes in it from the leather before it hit the ground!
But that was when I was 18-19 years old.

Now I'm 67, and couldn't do it on a bet if the coffee can sneaked up behind me and wiped me out!

rc
 
I'm with Stryker on this one.

I was trying to come up with a way to say it in fewer words, but yeah...

Basically, if you get a gun with good balance and ergos then your body pretty much takes care of the rest. Practice just makes you better.

This video still holds water, believe it or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Z8UOifzSU
 
eyesight that can't focus on handgun sights
I should have mentioned that above
one of the reasons I get in PS practice is because I require glasses - and if those glasses are knocked off I refuse to be a victim any further
 
With a handgun, I use my left pointer finger parallel with the barrel and point it at whatever I want to shoot. Works pretty decent for me on an 18" square out to about 10 yards or so. At the range I put the pistol down or hold it at my side, then keeping focused on the target, I raise the gun and shoot. At home I have practiced with an empty air pistol with a laser pointer. I would point at something, then squeeze the pressure switch to see where I was. I would never be able to head shoot a turtle without sights, but I'm not much of an 'accomplished' shooter.

Oh, and when I'm doing my point shoot at the range, I always decock before I set the pistol down. Safety first and yah dee yah duh.
 
If you wish to point shoot, just shoot as IF you could see your sights.

That is, bring the weapon up to the exact same position you use when you use your sights (I don't care if it's a 'Weaver' stance, Iso, Chapman, etc... one handed or two, but bring it up just the same way except don't look at the sights.

Do it that way and you can mix your sighted fire and unsighted fire training. You also get the same familiarity of how to index and hold the weapon.

For you see, the concept of 'flash sight picture' is not that far off from point shooting. You don't adjust the sights, just verify them. It's the index that is the key and your peripheral eye sight 'verifies' the alignment.

Deaf
 
couldbeanyone said:
maximum accuracy-point shooting
Do we have any point shooters here? I was just kind of wondering how accurate you are when point shooting. How far can you hit point shooting.
When I was a new match shooter, I was taught this version of point shooting by a RO who taught PD/SD/SWAT. His emphasis with SWAT students and us newbie match shooters was being able to shoot "tactically accurate" in low or no light situations. As part of our training, he made us remove our Glock front sights and run some match stages to test out point shooting.

This is what we went through.

1. First, learn the principles of sighted shooting basics: Stance/Posture/Grip/Trigger Control so you are able to quick draw and produce 4"-6" shot groups at 7-10-15 yards using both hands.

2. Place a full-size target at 3 yards and stand in front with eyes closed. Draw and point center-of-mass (COM) in your mind then HOLD your stance/posture/grip at the target.

3. Open eyes and note POA. If POA is consistent with COM, go to step #4. If not, make necessary adjustment to line up POA with COM by only moving at shoulders and waist while keeping stance/posture/grip the same. Make note of this in your mind and repeat step #2.

4. Fire one round with eyes closed and open to verify POI and POA. If POI is different from POA (more than 4"-6"), tape up hole and go back to step #2. If POI is consistent with POA, go to step #5.

5. Place 6 paper plates or copy papers on full-size cardboard target. With eyes closed, draw and aim at various targets (example: Top Right, Bottom Left, etc.) then HOLD your stance/posture/grip at the target.

6. Open eyes and verify POA with targets. If consistent within 4"-6", go to step #7. If not, practice until POA lines up with various targets.

7. Fire one round with eyes closed and open to verify POI and POA. If POI is different from POA (more than 4"-6"), tape up hole and go back to step #5. If POI is consistent with POA, shoot remaining targets one by one. If POI is different from POA (more than 4"-6"), tape up hole and go back to step #5.

8. Once you are able to hit any of the 6 targets with 4"-6" average shot groups, move the targets out to 5 yards.

9. Once you are able to hit any of the 6 targets with 4"-6" average shot groups, move the targets out to 7 yards.

10. Once you are able to hit any of the 6 targets with 4"-6" average shot groups, move the targets out to 10 yards.

I am currently comfortable producing 4"-6" shot groups point shooting at 7 yards and have incorporated point shooting into match shooting close range targets. I have since taken this version of point shooting further by looking at the target's imaginary POI with both eyes open and focusing on the holes that are produced instead of the front sight. This has allowed me to extend my range beyond 7 yards.

I value point shooting as a critical part of SD/HD shooting practice that will allow defensive shooting in low/no light situations at home or street or for whatever reason, your eyes are injured/out of commission. It adds another level of confidence.

I hope this helped. :D
 
It seems that a man point shooting a handgun should be able to match an old man with a home-made slingshot. I have not been able to though.

I guarantee you that your grandfather is NOT point shooting with his slingshot. He's aiming it - probably using the top branch of the "Y" (when the slingshot is held at an angle - about 30 degrees from straight up and down) as his "sight", as me and my buddies learned to do many years ago.

When I was a kid (in the 70s) me and my buddies used to go to the shooting range (about 2 miles away) and dig bullets out of the hill for slingshot ammo when the range was cold. We lived in Oceanside, California and there were a couple of Marines there shooting a black powder pistol. As we were waitning around for the range to go cold, one of the Marines challenged us to a shoot three soda cans set up at 15 yards with our slingshots. He'd give one of us five lead balls and if one of us could knock down all three cans in five shots then he'd give us the remainder of the lead balls he was shooting. We all jumped at the chance but he picked my buddy John, who quickly blasted all three cans downrange in three shots. We collected our prize and the Marine's buddy and girlfriend had a really good chuckle.
 
I guarantee you that your grandfather is NOT point shooting with his slingshot.
I asked him to teach me to shoot a slingshot when I was about 10 years old. We went to the creek and picked 2 five gallon buckets of round rocks. I asked him how to aim and he said just to look at what you want to hit. He then showed me how he held it and the motion he used to shoot it. He then told me to start practicing. When he shot, both the rock in the pouch and the Y of the slingshot were at about mid-chest height. He didn't pull the rock back, he pushed the Y forward in a rapid motion slightly cocking his wrist forward at the time he released the rock pouch. This all happened in one rapid smooth motion. The handle of the slingshot was at about a 45 degree angle to the ground. Call it what you will, but there is no way he was aiming in the manner you describe as the slingshot was never anywhere near high enough to be in his line of sight. Also, he would of said so when trying to teach me, instead of continually trying to reinforce the exact motion of his release. I'd say he was closer to a primitive archer trying to hit a moving target.
 
Strykervet posted
I pick a very small target, but that comes from the army, aiming at buttons instead of center mass, aim small miss small or whatever.
I think there is definitely something to this. I have noticed that I am more likely to hit an empty 12 gauge shell than to hit dead center on a plain white 9" plate at the same distance. Something about your focus I guess.
Thanks to everyone for your tips and input thus far.:)
 
In 25 words or less, you can't miss fast enough to win, but its trivial to shoot slow enough to lose!

Practice point shooting at 7-10 yards (start at 3 yard until you get the hang of it). Use the recoil of the quick point shooting shots to get the sights up to eye level should you miss and still be alive. Any hit is a good hit!
 
While browsing for something else, came across these:

US Army video point shooting with 1911 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5J7lbGm-RY

Down and dirty more "realistic" point shooting - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw50rhbEUC0

Israeli combat point shooting (students' perspective) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8JmBC0jV70&feature=related

Point shooting with M9 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiwgvqDxIIY&feature=related


Israeli combat point shooting (ICPS) training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm1UXH5T4Vw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP_kUwxpkxs&feature=related
 
Point shooting is at its most useful when properly applied. This means as an addition to sighted fire, not a substitute. Learn to shoot sighted fire, get all the mechanics down cold.

Then start doing retention drills.

The goal of point shooting is to be able to shoot accurately at close range when you are not able, due to time and distance, to use your sights.

If you're familiar with the four count draw stroke, the time for point shooting is between counts two and three. Count one, your pistol is still in the holster but you have a firing grip. Bad time to pull the trigger. Usually pretty hard on the leg and knee. At count four, you are at full extension and should be using the sights.

At count two, however, you have cleared the holster and the pistol is near your armpit and oriented toward the threat. At count three, you have both hands on the pistol but you are not at eye level yet. From the beginning of two to the end of three is where point shooting shines.

While it is possible to learn to hit accurately at long distance by point shooting, it is of so little utility as to be a futile exercise. Just as it is possible to use your sights at point blank range, it's not the best use of the limited time and distance you have available.

Think of it as a sliding scale. As you transition between the counts of the draw stroke, you transition from one mode of "aiming" to another, using what is the best for the rapidly changing scenario.
 
Jim Cirillo's (a gunfighter of some note) book Guns, Bullets and Gunfights describes what he calls a "Nose Point" (body position indexed, gun not in line of sight) and "Silhouette Point" (coarsely aimed with gun in line of sight). I find the latter technique very useful. With their flat, square slides, Glocks are very well suited for this.

rcmodel said:
At one point, I shot several hundred rounds a month, for a year or so, practicing drawing & hitting a hand tossed coffee can in the air.
You must have had a lot of space with a high backstop. Now, this is hard to find. :(
 
In 25 words or less, you can't miss fast enough to win, but its trivial to shoot slow enough to lose!

Practice point shooting at 7-10 yards (start at 3 yard until you get the hang of it). Use the recoil of the quick point shooting shots to get the sights up to eye level should you miss and still be alive. Any hit is a good hit!
No.

Plenty of cases on record where attackers took multpile hits and kept firing.

The idea any hit is a good hit is false.

Deaf
 
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