MBC 357 grooveless unexpected velocities

[quaid]

I just loaded and chrono'ed some of Missouri Bullet Company's hitek2 coated ".357 Action!-Grooveless" brinnell 18. These were loaded 1.6185 oal, federal small mag primer, RP cases. I didn't get the velocities that I was expecting from the data I was using out of Lyman 49th. Lyman data called for 1343 fps on the low end and 1462 fps on the high end with a round nose uncoated linotype bullet from a 4" test receiver. I averaged 1212fps with 16 grains, and 1238 fps with 16.4 grains with a 6" revolver.

16 grn 10 shots, 1212 fps average, 70 extreme spread, 22 standard deviation
16.4 grn 10 shots, 1238 fps average, 99 extreme spread, 28.8 standard deviation

I expected similar velocites with the longer barrel, not 100-200 fps slower?

 

[murf]

a test receiver has no barrel/cylinder gap, so not really comparable.

what primer are you using?

murf

 

[sequins]

Revolvers always come in under published velocity for the reason the gentleman above me posted: Test receivers aren't revolvers.

 

[Eddietruett]

Unless I missed it, you didn't list what type powder you are using

 

[Eddietruett]

That looks much like a Hodgdon H110 load. If it is, I'm getting better velocity than you are for some reason. Just ran some loads yesterday. The HyTek coated bullet should get more velocity than a jacket bullet and with 16.5gr of H110 I'm averaging 1376fps with Hornady 158gr XTP. I would expect at least 100fps faster with the coated lead. My loads are with a 7" barrel and surprising enough, I get approximately the same velocity with a 7" barrel as my 8 3/8". Only varies about 20fps. I was getting around 1275fps with the Missouri 180gr Coated Lead using 13.5gr of H110. I was getting lower than expected velocities with H110 a while back and I got a roll crimp and now crimp really tight. Just before crushing the case. It made a huge difference. Weather permitting I plan on doing some testing tomorrow and I think I have some Missouri 158gr SWC. I'll run a few through the chronograph and see shat I get. Mine are not grooveless but shouldn't make that much of a difference.

 

[quaid]

a test receiver has no barrel/cylinder gap, so not really comparable.

what primer are you using?

murf

I’m seeing a 15’ish% velocity reduction. It seems like a lot to a attribute to a cylinder gap.

Federal small pistol magnum primer.

Unless I missed it, you didn't list what type powder you are using

Win 296 in this case. The h110 equivalent.

That looks much like a Hodgdon H110 load. If it is, I'm getting better velocity than you are for some reason. Just ran some loads yesterday. The HyTek coated bullet should get more velocity than a jacket bullet and with 16.5gr of H110 I'm averaging 1376fps with Hornady 158gr XTP. I would expect at least 100fps faster with the coated lead. My loads are with a 7" barrel and surprising enough, I get approximately the same velocity with a 7" barrel as my 8 3/8". Only varies about 20fps. I was getting around 1275fps with the Missouri 180gr Coated Lead using 13.5gr of H110. I was getting lower than expected velocities with H110 a while back and I got a roll crimp and now crimp really tight. Just before crushing the case. It made a huge difference. Weather permitting I plan on doing some testing tomorrow and I think I have some Missouri 158gr SWC. I'll run a few through the chronograph and see shat I get. Mine are not grooveless but shouldn't make that much of a difference.

My crimp was effective. Maybe that’s my problem? I’ve ready heavy crimp can be desireable, maybe I need to really give it a squeeze.

 

[murf]

.004" minimum case/bullet tension and a heavy crimp all the way down to the bottom of the crimp groove are almost a requirement for good powder ignition with heavy h110 loads in 357 magnum.

a normal 38 special/357 magnum sizing die usually won't size the case enough to get the necessary tension. and the expander plug usually expands the case too much (a 38 special only requires a .001" case/bullet tension to shoot accurately and is usually what is supplied with the die set ). you can use a 9mm sizing die to size the case a bit more (a second sizing operation), but a smaller diameter expander plug will be necessary to get the .004" tension (a 380 auto expander plug may work, but no guarantees).

i had rcbs make a .354" diameter expander plug for me. cost 35 dollars, i think. where there is a will, there is a way!

luck,

murf

 

[buck460XVR]

You're not using the same platform as in the manual, nor are you using the same bullet. Why would you think you would get the same velocities? How was accuracy?

 

[falmike]

Numbers aren’t everything; just look at the Bumble Bee.

If you are getting good groups, and not getting pressure signs, you are good to go.

 

[Eddietruett]

Numbers aren’t everything; just look at the Bumble Bee.

If you are getting good groups, and not getting pressure signs, you are good to go.

I agree. That’s the key. Worry about grouping more than velocity. The velocity you are getting is plenty fast enough for anything you will need, so if it’s accurate, velocity don’t matter. I fretted for a long while because the most accurate deer load in my .357 had extreme spread of 100fps. I had other loads that the extreme spread was less than 40. Realized as long as the slowest would do the job and would give the grouping I need, then I was worrying about nothing.

 

[Livin_Cincy]

I think the crimp might be suspect.
Many Magnums need the "dwell" time a heavier crimp provides to reach full potential energy.

You can recrimp rounds safely and add more. You might make a 'ladder load' with ever increasing crimps. I assume you are using a roll crimp not a taper crimp die. Taper crimps for 38/357 are designed for bullets without groove.

One of the wonders of 357 Brass is if you wear it out from heavy crimps you trim it to clean up the edge. Just shorten it to use for 38+P and press on.

 

[buck460XVR]

I agree. That’s the key. Worry about grouping more than velocity. The velocity you are getting is plenty fast enough for anything you will need, so if it’s accurate, velocity don’t matter.

This is exactly why I posted in my previous response...

How was accuracy?

Folks worry so much about a few FPS and you never hear about group size. In the end, you still gotta hit what you're pointing at, regardless of velocity.

Lots of reasons the OP may not be getting posted velocity. I hit on two major ones in my first response. Another may be the P.C. on the bullet. P.C. bullets are said to be "slippery" and thus easier to push down the barrel. This may mean a slow burning powder like H110/W296 is not getting the back pressure it needs to get it best results. Could be bullet fit to barrel and the relative hardness of the bullet not allowing it to obturate and fill the bore tightly. Could be the throat/barrel dimensions. Could be alot of things. We could guess all week and not know which it is.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have never matched the velocities printed in manuals with my handloads. As a matter of fact one of my revolvers has a "slow barrel" and always shows much lower velocities than published. Luckily it's also extremely accurate and reliable.

 

[Slamfire]

These are the velocities I received shooting linotype bullets in my 357. And they are not the velocities you see in the books, but based on my data with other powders, with the same bullet weights, these are pretty close to maximum. If you are expecting to push a 158 gr bullet to 1450 fps in a revolver, don't be surprised if your revolver looks like this:





My Data:

Smith & Wesson M27-2 6” barrel



158 LSWC Linotype Bullets 15.5 grs W296 Zero Cases CCI500
21 June 2008 T = 85 °F

Ave Vel = 1282
Std Dev = 35
ES = 128.1
High = 1325
Low = 1197
N = 12

No leading, no extraction issues, heavier recoil than AA#9 load

158 LSWC Linotype Bullets 15.5 grs W296 3D Cases CCI500
14 Oct 2008 T = 80 °F

Ave Vel = 1260
Std Dev = 34
ES = 160.5
High = 1315
Low = 1154
N = 18

158 LSWC Linotype Bullets 15.5 grs W296 Midway Cases CCI500
14 Dec 2015 T = 62 °F

Ave Vel = 1235
Std Dev = 34
ES = 102.9
High = 1274
Low = 1171
N = 11

light muzzle leading after 50 rds

Colt Trooper MKIII 6" Barrel



158 gr LSWC Lino 15.5 grs W296 3D cases CCI 500
30-Dec-15 T = 55 ° F

Ave Vel = 1156
Std Dev = 53
ES = 203.4
High = 1285
Low = 1081
N = 24

158 gr LSWC Lino 15.5 grs W296 R-P cases CCI 500
19-Sep-18 T = 88 ° F

Ave Vel = 1223
Std Dev = 42
ES = 156.3
High = 1302
Low = 1146
N = 17

Very accurate, very loud! No observable leading

 

[quaid]

You're not using the same platform as in the manual, nor are you using the same bullet. Why would you think you would get the same velocities? How was accuracy?

Numbers aren’t everything; just look at the Bumble Bee.

If you are getting good groups, and not getting pressure signs, you are good to go.

I wasn't testing for accuracy yet, just safety, because I am using a different platform, different bullet, different primer...

This is exactly why I posted in my previous response...

Folks worry so much about a few FPS and you never hear about group size. In the end, you still gotta hit what you're pointing at, regardless of velocity.

Lots of reasons the OP may not be getting posted velocity. I hit on two major ones in my first response. Another may be the P.C. on the bullet. P.C. bullets are said to be "slippery" and thus easier to push down the barrel. This may mean a slow burning powder like H110/W296 is not getting the back pressure it needs to get it best results. Could be bullet fit to barrel and the relative hardness of the bullet not allowing it to obturate and fill the bore tightly. Could be the throat/barrel dimensions. Could be alot of things. We could guess all week and not know which it is.

I can only fret about FPS until I get pressure equipment (which is on the to do list right after winning the lotto). Then I can fret about what really matters, the pressure that I'm trying to understand based on FPS.

And to Slamfire- I appreciate you sharing your numbers, looks like my velocities are in line with what can be generally expected. I have never chrono'ed factory ammo out of my pistol, I had nothing to compare it to.

I'm going to rechrono with a heavier crimp, and knowing that they're both safe at this point I'll make more then just a handful so I can shoot a group too.

The chrono is the only tool I have to extrapolate information for this unpublished bullet. I've seen pass throughs with a 44 mag take the 2nd deer behind it down too. I'm not looking for a 45-70 gov't revolver load, just a safe full power/standard pressure 357 mag.

 

[Slamfire]

The chrono is the only tool I have to extrapolate information for this unpublished bullet.

I have done the same and do the same, that you are doing when developing loads with unknown powders, bullets, primers. You just have to test, and I implicitly believe that higher velocities mean more pressures, even if I don't have a means of measuring the pressures. So I compare velocities. It is imperfect, but without pressure gages, estimating pressures is highly imperfect. The only trustworthy signs we reloaders can observe are gross indications of pressure. Which are blown primers, pierced primers, sticking cases, expanded case pockets, and difficult extraction. When I encounter any of these I know I have passed a maximum load, long ago, just did not know it at the time.

In my 357 tests, with the M27, I had sticking cases at certain load levels, and generally, I tried to stay below those velocity levels, even with other powders. I think H110/W296 gave me a little more velocity without sticking, but, who knows, another day, another lot, might get sticking cases. And, depending on the wall thickness of the cylinder, a thinner cylinder wall will expand more, causing sticking cases, at load levels that won't stick in a thick walled cylinder.

I have gotten to be an old fuss, and have been out developing loads in 357 Magnum cases, that approximate standard pressure 38 Special loads. I don't like 38 Special lead rings in a 357 cylinder. I don't like the blast and recoil of 357 Magnum loads, and I am not shooting my 357 Magnums as much as I used to, but maybe with accurate and light recoiling loads, in 357 cases, I will be taking them out to the range more often.

 

[Eddietruett]

I have gotten to be an old fuss, and have been out developing loads in 357 Magnum cases, that approximate standard pressure 38 Special loads. I don't like 38 Special lead rings in a 357 cylinder. I don't like the blast and recoil of 357 Magnum loads, and I am not shooting my 357 Magnums as much as I used to, but maybe with accurate and light recoiling loads, in 357 cases, I will be taking them out to the range more often.

I'm getting like you. I only shoot full bore .357 this time of year getting ready for Hog and Deer Season. The older I get, the more I like less bang and recoil. I've done a fair amount of shooting .38 loads in .357 cases and what I've found is with my favorite 2 loads which is 5.0gr of Universal or 6.0gr of Power Pistol behind 130 and 158gr HyTek coated lead bullets that they work fine and with equal accuracy in .38 and .357 cases. When I tried the rabbit fart type loads of 3.0gr of Bullseye with 148gr HBWC, accuracy fell way off using the longer case. I just figured it was such a little amount of powder in a large case that caused it. I had a buddy who loaded a lot of low end loads in .357 cases and before firing he held the gun straight up so all the powder would settle in the bottom of the case. Seemed to help, but that's way too much trouble for me. While I don't like the ring in the cylinder, I found that a .40 caliber brass brush and a cordless drill with a little Remington 40x bore cleaner will get the ring out in a matter of seconds. I've also heard guys who swear that .357 cases will give better accuracy than .38 because less bullet jump, but I have not found this to be the case.

 

[quaid]

I’ve shot thousands of rounds of 38 spl, but I have only finally used up that first box of 50 357 I bought all those years ago.

My tight groups are from a 158 grain zcast with about 4 grains of win 231 in a short special case. While I’m thrilled it doesn’t lead and shoots tight groups I don’t like taking the seating die apart to clean out the extra lube, so I’m open to the hitech these days.

 

[Eddietruett]

This is exactly why I posted in my previous response...

Folks worry so much about a few FPS and you never hear about group size. In the end, you still gotta hit what you're pointing at, regardless of velocity..

I agree with you 100%. When I "work up" a hunting load that is going to be close to max, I start about 10-15% below published max depending on the load and I don't worry the least about velocity. I have a good idea where I'm at when I start from experience. I start shooting groups from the start. I gradually work up and with H110 powder, in almost every case, the groups improve as you get closer to max published loads. Keep in mind, that published loads can vary a fair amount from one source to another. In just about every case, the groups will sort of level out before you get to max load. That's when I quit and then check the velocity. But in reality by that time, I know the velocity is good enough for hunting. With 158 JHP that I use for deer, I'm getting an average around 1275fps out of an 8 3/8" Model 686. Using H110 that is about .5gr less than most max postings and a full grain less than a guy uses that I know. It is very accurate and I know within the limits I set for myself as far as distance, it will penetrate and expand very well. For Hogs, I use a 180gr HyTek Coated Lead Bullet that averages around 1260fps out of the same gun. Again the load of H110 is below max but it is an extremely accurate load and it will give me the penetration I need for a tough skin hog at 50-75 yards. I strive to get the most accurate load I can and as long as it can meet the minimum velocity to get the job done, then I'm very happy.

 

[Eddietruett]

I’ve shot thousands of rounds of 38 spl, but I have only finally used up that first box of 50 357 I bought all those years ago.

My tight groups are from a 158 grain zcast with about 4 grains of win 231 in a short special case. While I’m thrilled it doesn’t lead and shoots tight groups I don’t like taking the seating die apart to clean out the extra lube, so I’m open to the hitech these days.

HyTek Coated Lead is the best thing I've found in a bullet in a long time. Some say coating your own at home works just as well. I have never tried the home casting and coating as I just don't have the time, so I can't say. I sent from standard lead to plated bullets mainly from Berrys just because they shot so much cleaner as well as loaded cleaner. I was getting use from paying around $60-70 per k for lead to now paying around $100 per k for plated. After hearing so much good stuff about the coated lead, I finally decided to give it a try and I'll never go back to plated again. There are so many advantages to coated lead. The main disadvantage to plated is because of friction the bullets run slower. I found out the hard way with a couple of squibs that trying to load plated wadcutters with the same tiny load of Bullseye I was using did not work. The coated lead can be loaded about as fast or slow as you could want. Its not much more expensive than uncoated lead. One of the greatest advantages of the coated lead is that Missouri Bullets will sell any of their bullets in sample packs of 100. No telling how many bullets I've got sitting around that I never could get to shoot accurate. Its as clean as jacketed and you can push coated lead to jacketed velocity all day long with no worry about leading either. I do keep some of the plated loaded up as I do go to a lead free range with a buddy about once a year. When they first went lead free, coated lead would get by but now now.

 

[buck460XVR]

I wasn't testing for accuracy yet, just safety, because I am using a different platform, different bullet, different primer...



I can only fret about FPS until I get pressure equipment (which is on the to do list right after winning the lotto). Then I can fret about what really matters, the pressure that I'm trying to understand based on FPS.

I have never chrono'ed factory ammo out of my pistol, I had nothing to compare it to.

I'm going to rechrono with a heavier crimp, and knowing that they're both safe at this point I'll make more then just a handful so I can shoot a group too.

The chrono is the only tool I have to extrapolate information for this unpublished bullet. I've seen pass throughs with a 44 mag take the 2nd deer behind it down too. I'm not looking for a 45-70 gov't revolver load, just a safe full power/standard pressure 357 mag.

Within the scenario of a different platform and a different bullet type/profile/weight, trying to achieve similar velocity may be impossible. While a chrono is a good tool, it isn't gonna tell you that you have reached max pressure for your firearm just cause you've reached max velocity for another bullet/platform. You need to keep it in perspective and relative. Such as chronographing other loads/factory ammo with published velocities to see how you gun relates. Cross referencing more than one source of tested loads. I'm surprised at how Missouri seems to avoid all advice as to how to load their bullets. There was a time not so long ago when chronos were not readily available for us reloaders. We had to rely solely on published data. While I know there is a theory that velocity will stop increasing or decrease once a max load is reached, is that load safe in your gun?

 

[quaid]

I resized the brass I used over the chrono- they resized noticeably easier then other range pickups and brass donations from friends. The brass also extracted, more like almost fell out, very easily when I shot it over this weekend. I'm leaning towards the upper pressure limit not being reached. My plan is to increase the crimp and shoot these two same loads for groups first. My numbers are in the neighborhood of what 6" revolvers do (thanks Slamfire for the numbers) so I'm probably where I need to be anyway.

Extrapolating from the books I've seen, the weights, the harder alloy, the slippery coating, I'd wager the actual max for this combo may be about 10% higher... which is great, because that's where I try to end up so I can use a volumetric thrower and not worry about variations.

........
For Hogs, I use a 180gr HyTek Coated Lead Bullet that averages around 1260fps out of the same gun. Again the load of H110 is below max but it is an extremely accurate load and it will give me the penetration I need for a tough skin hog at 50-75 yards. .......

Eddie - you said "below max" for a hytek bullet- what is your source? I'd like to find a book that covers hytek bullets.

Within the scenario of a different platform and a different bullet type/profile/weight, trying to achieve similar velocity may be impossible. While a chrono is a good tool, it isn't gonna tell you that you have reached max pressure for your firearm just cause you've reached max velocity for another bullet/platform. You need to keep it in perspective and relative. Such as chronographing other loads/factory ammo with published velocities to see how you gun relates. Cross referencing more than one source of tested loads. I'm surprised at how Missouri seems to avoid all advice as to how to load their bullets. There was a time not so long ago when chronos were not readily available for us reloaders. We had to rely solely on published data. While I know there is a theory that velocity will stop increasing or decrease once a max load is reached, is that load safe in your gun?

Which is why I posted up here when I started seeing velocities substantially differing from what the book called for. Red flags went up.

 

[Eddietruett]

Eddie - you said "below max" for a hytek bullet- what is your source? I'd like to find a book that covers hytek bullets. .

I apologize if my post was confusing and I can see how it was. When referring to max I meant loading data that is available for JHP bullets. I use it as a comparison when loading up the HyTek Bullets. While I start a fair amount lower, I've been able to load HyTek to the levels of Jacket Bullets with no problems or any signs of high pressure. Maybe it is just me thinking, but since the Coated lead is running faster with less friction, I would think it would have less pressure. But I know that is not science. I've also heard it said that more velocity means more pressure. That's why I'm careful in working up a coated lead bullet load. Since Plated bullets like Berrys etc run slower due to more friction from the plating, in my mind I see them creating more pressure. That's country talk for WAG.

 

[buck460XVR]

Which is why I posted up here when I started seeing velocities substantially differing from what the book called for. Red flags went up.

From my experience, I don't see 100 fps as a substantial difference, especially between a test barrel and a revolver and a difference in bullet construction and weight. What I did see from your chrono results tho, is even when adding almost half a grain of H110/W296(which is substantial), you only gained 26fps. This tells me that adding more powder is not going to result in much more velocity.

 

[Eddietruett]

There was a report recently in Handloader Magazine where a lot of loads were tested for the top ten calibers that are reloaded in handguns. In the .357 Mag, at a certain weight of H110, the velocity actually went down when powder was increased! It was not a typo, as it was discussed by the writer. He also made a side not that he consulted Hodgdon about this and the answer was it is just one of those things that happen so you should be careful with your loads.