McDonald SCOTUS Decision -- Master Thread

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What is Mr Obama's take, I wonder...
I'm sure he'll let us know at the next State of the Union address.
Oh, I’m thinking he will not mention anything about firearms. Despite what he has said and done in the past, and despite what many have predicted he will do, he has not taken any steps to tighten gun control since taking office. He is a politician first and for most, one who has won every election he has entered. I’m thinking he does not see gun control as an issue that will win him more votes or support right now then it will lose, so he is going to stay out of it. (Of course when the political winds change he will change with them.)
 
All sorts of folks are here on the High Road with all sorts of opinions. In general I’ve found the ones that defend their right to their opinion the most are the most vocal in denying anyone else right to have a different opinion. With some posters there is no end in the amount of typing they will do to re state their point of view over and over again, no limit to how farfetched scenarios they will come up with, inapplicable historic analogy they will call up, or rare occurrences they will use as examples to support their point of view.
It's not PC, but I'm of the idea that a belief doesn't become automatically reasonable and valid just because somebody chooses to promote it.

There's a difference in a well reasoned position (such as the argument about whether non-violent felons should be allowed to own guns) and an emotionally-charged distrust of other law-abiding gun owners. He claimed that for some reason, people who work in a Federal building shouldn't be allowed to carry, without providing any reasonable arguments for his position. Why would you defend somebody's belief when they can't even defend it themselves?

There is right and wrong. Opinion isn't all that matters, and feelings often lead people off the path of logic and down the road of emotional hand-wringing and fear. In my opinion, emotion and fear have no place in the discussion of legal rights.

I have no problem debating someone who has a reasoned, well-defended position. No one should expect that they can promote an elitist, emotional view of other gun owners without being challenged.

Oh, I’m thinking he will not mention anything about firearms. Despite what he has said and done in the past, and despite what many have predicted he will do, he has not taken any steps to tighten gun control since taking office. He is a politician first and for most, one who has won every election he has entered. I’m thinking he does not see gun control as an issue that will win him more votes or support right now then it will lose, so he is going to stay out of it. (Of course when the political winds change he will change with them.)
When he first took office, one of the most prominent policy points on the White House website was the desire to re-up the failed 1994 "Assault Weapons Ban". Holder leaked word of that plan and a firestorm erupted, and he's been quiet on the subject since.

Do not mistake his silence with lack of willingness. This administration lets no crisis go to waste. You'd better believe that if anybody shoots up a mall with semi-auto AK clone in the next couple of years, he'll be ready to support a ban.

Look down your long nose in contempt at that opinion if you'd like, but I read his explicit intent on the White House website with my own eyes back in 2009.

Keep in mind that his blanket support for amnesty, cap and tax, and the massive health care bill are horribly unpopular, but he still pushed forward. Don't imagine that popular opinion will sway our President when he's doing what he thinks is right. (Sorry to veer from the topic of guns, but I'm just using those examples as evidence that popular opinion hasn't proven effective in dissuading President Obama from his agenda before).
 
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The Supreme Court Has Spoken

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In a 5 to 4 ruling, the USSC has upheld the rights of real people, individuals, or so it appears.

While gun owners might express their appreciation to a majority of the court, one might wish to wait for thoughtful analysis of the ruling itself, what does it say in plain English as opposed to what it says in lawyers talk, possibly the last mentioned being more significant than the first part.

As for the four justices that voted against the individual rights of real people, one is given to look at another recent court ruling, that being one that effected the rights of what are “legal constructs”, corporations, as opposed to real people. In the court’s upholding the free speech rights of corporations, how did these four justices vote?

Threads merged.
 
I can't wait to hear Obama's take on this. I won't be suprised if he say's something like "The supreme court acted stuipidly".

Remember we haven't defeated the Anti's with this 2nd win. We all need to keep voting for the correct politicans and support the NRA. The anti's will never quit this fight so we can't rest thinking that this is a final.
 
It's good to see something positive in the news though as usual the court remanded authority over "reasonable restrictions" to local jurisdictions. Can anyone say "Chicago Compliant" ammo and pistols? The attack will never cease with politicians who would promote their own ideology ahead of all others' rights.
 
All sorts of folks are here on the High Road with all sorts of opinions. In general I’ve found the ones that defend their right to their opinion the most are the most vocal in denying anyone else right to have a different opinion.

No, what happens is that people post thoughts like that with no evidence, no rationale, no thought put into it other than a "gut feeling".

What we ask is that people who participate in the gun discussions here do so with honesty.

If all you have is a "gut feeling" that someone with a gun scares you, be honest about it.

That never seems to happen. We post statistics, crime reports, all manner of data to support the fact that guns in the hands of the law abiding don't do harm, why can't those who want to take the opposing viewpoint do the same?

But no, it's called "ranting" when we ask someone to support their beliefs with facts? Or at last admit that their beliefs have no basis in fact if they can't?

And the other thing is that this is a pro gun forum. Why do those with anti gun beliefs want to participate here at all? Again, as long as it's with sound arguments it's fine but that rarely happens.

A great example is the folks against open carry. That's fine, be against it. But don't use as the reason the argument that "bad guys will shoot those with guns first" which seems to be the popular one. Open carry is already legal in many states and that doesn't happen. So the facts and reality don't back up that argument, yet it's used daily. At least use a legitimate reason.

That's dishonest, and that's not High Road.
 
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Lanier, D.C.'s police chief, said she believes the change has not had any effect on crime. The number of accidental shootings in homes, domestic violence shootings and suicides did not go up as a result, she said. Nor, she said, has the homicide rate gone down as a result of lifting the ban, a frequent claim by gun rights advocates.

"I just hope that there's not a thought that allowing people to legally register guns is going to have a big impact on crime," she said. "It certainly hasn't here."

I found this quote interesting for a few reasons. First, because of the vast number of regulations DC has created to now own a gun only 800 have been sold to people living there.

Not a large number.

Also its reasonable to argue that because of all the regulatons actually owning a gun is VERY expensive. So the people who do are those who make a good living and tend to live in low crime areas anyhow. Thus the likelyhood of them having to use a gun to defend themself is much lower.

I think their perspective on this is a bit warped.:scrutiny:
 
He claimed .... without providing any reasonable arguments...
...people post thoughts like that with no evidence, no rationale, no thought put into it...
Right. Heaven forbid someone explain themselves for their words/actions. Call them on it, and it's just vociferous pile-on. Please.
 
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To whom do we most owe gratitude for the legal fight that has lead to this opinion? The NRA, SAF, Gurra or who?
 
Mind if I ask then why you are a member of a pro gun forum? Just curious.

Why, because I love my firearms. My point being that where I work, and some of my coworkers for that matter, are the ones that I DON'T want to be bringing in a firearm. I feel perfectly safe here, the fact that we have metal detectors and armed security help ensure that.

@dirtymike1 - If you don't trust your co-workers w/ firearms, you might consider changing offices 'cause that little voice is telling you something... BTW, I also work in a gov't building. Lots of firearms enthusiasts here. Most former soldiers, some former or reserve LEOs, and plenty 'o plain 'ol civilians who like things that go 'bang'. I'd be willing to bet the combined collection of my coworkers would exceed that arsenals of some of the units on base.

Excuse while I go do a little futterwacken.


:cool: I hope to be leaving in two weeks actually. And the same goes for here. I know quite a few people, either active or retired military, LEO's and plenty of civvies’ that own firearms. They aren't the ones I'm worried about.


dirtymike1, I see a pile on is staring on your opinion. I’ve been here a few more years than you and can offer you this unrequested advice.

All sorts of folks are here on the High Road with all sorts of opinions. In general I’ve found the ones that defend their right to their opinion the most are the most vocal in denying anyone else right to have a different opinion. With some posters there is no end in the amount of typing they will do to re state their point of view over and over again, no limit to how farfetched scenarios they will come up with, inapplicable historic analogy they will call up, or rare occurrences they will use as examples to support their point of view.

You choice is to try to beat them at their own game, but I’ve found their ability to ignore what others say is limitless. Or you can let them rant ad lib while you get on with the rest of your life (remember you have one; apparently not everyone on THR does.)


I am familiar with this mentally. The way I see it is the same for my other opinion that will more than likely start a **** storm here. I know people that think "If the Military has it I should too!" and I don't think that's right. I see no need for myself to ever own landmines or hand grenades or other things to that extent. While I am all for full auto's and SRB etc. I think there does need to be a limit. Remember folks, being on one extreme or the other, it doesn't make your side more right. This is the thing I see a lot of people ignore, that they are acting in the same fashion as the gun grabber but on the other end of the spectrum.

Now I don't want to argue this with everyone on here. That's not why I'm here. I enjoy this site and I've gotten a lot of very helpful information from most of you. But because my opinion doesn't jive with yours don't give me hell about.
 
I couldn't not comment on this thread, so here is my take.

I believe today is a great day for America as one of the rights we have been guaranteed as citizens has been confirmed once again after some 70 years of repression starting during the crime wave of 1933-34. I believe that this is a positive sign of the turning of the tides in favor of gun ownership and usage. As I understand it this is the last handgun ban on the books in the nation and the next logical target would be assault weapon bans, the States of NY and CA should start mustering their lawyers.

On the topic of Machine Guns:
Many people here have asked why no one is seriously talking about legalizing machine guns. I don't think this is a situation of lack of care, lack of want, or other apathy, I believe that this is a situation of picking the battles you can win until you get enough momentum and favor that you are sure you can win the battle when you come to it. Consider that we just now have secured our right to handguns nationwide, we still have laws that ban semi-automatic firearms on the books and also restrictive laws on suppressors and short barrels. To me jumping from handgun legalization and jumping directly to machine gun legalization is analogous to repealing prohibition and immediately asking for all pharmaceuticals to be sold OTC.

Now in theory if everyone was intelligent, well informed, and well intentioned this would be great. Prices would drop and everyone could get the drugs they needed when they needed them instead of having to go through an intermediary gate keeper. However unfortunately not everyone is intelligent, well informed, and well intentioned. There are many people that think machine guns are magic bullet machines just like there are people that think marijuana will give you cancer and permanent brain damage after inhaling it once.

So to those that worry about machine guns I say: We will get there eventually, just it isn't going to happen tomorrow. We need to work our way there and get through all the BS in front of machine guns first. The best thing you can do today to help your cause is to fight Assault Weapon Bans and restrictions on suppressors. The end is in sight.
 
"If the ban is overturned, we will see a lot of common-sense approaches in the city aimed at protecting first responders," Daley said. "We have to have some type of registry. If a first responder goes to an apartment, they need to know if that individual has a gun."


I wish someone in Chicago would ask Daley how a registry of legally owned guns by law-abiding citizens will allow first responders to know if there is an individual with an unregistered gun in the apartment.

Handguns are illegal in Chicago, but we know there plenty of them there. Do you suppose first responders currently ever encounter individuals with illegal, unregistered guns?

Why do politicians with a demonstrated lack of "common sense" ALWAYS preface their nonsensical BS with that phrase?

And why don't people who actually possess common sense turn them out of office?

As someone else pointed out, Daley will likely force citizens to choose between possessing a handgun or receiving timely help from first responders.
 
I am delighted with the McDonald decision. It is no real surprise and I am glad that the Court did the right thing. I also agree with the Court and with dirtymike, who posted above, that restrictions will exist and that is not necessarily a bad thing (of course the devil is always in the details.) I do not think that this point of view makes me or dirtymike or Justice Alito an anti. None of our constitutional rights are unfettered -- there are limitations on all of them. There are time place and manner restrictions on free speech, there are limitations on unlawful search and seizure. The right against self incrimination under the fifth amendment has expanded and contracted in a generation. I would guess that most of us expect and approve of some of these limitations. Very little is black and white.

I am new to this forum, and one thing that I have appreciated over months of lurking is the variety of perspectives and the absence of name-calling.

This is a very good day for all supporters of the second amendment, even though we may not always completely agree with each other.
 
Good news, but hard road still ahead

Still a lot of leeway allowed for a locality to impose "reasonable" restrictions. Great news that individual rights win out over the local government power to impose restrictions. Ownership in the home still has a way to go to be truly a lack of infringement. Legal battles will come. Maybe that's why the NRA called me yesterday at dinnertime. Now maybe I should read the decision in full.
 
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I work in a government building, and I sure as hell do not want people being able to carry here. That's just me.

Does it have metal detectors at all entrances with armed security? If it doesn't have both...all that is ensured is that if/when someone decides to come in armed and murder people...everyone else will be a dis-armed victim.

Strambo, yes and yes.


Google the Alfred P. Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City. That was a federal building in which firearms were banned and metal detectors were at the doors.

If someone wants to kill/rob/rape you they'll simply wait until you're going to or leaving work unarmed. That's how most street robberies happen every year. The thugs know that you're traversing to or from work and most employers don't allow their employees to have firearms on their premises.
 
What is Mr Obama's take, I wonder...

Probably nothing voiced. But once he and/or his congressional majority are lame duck - watch out! He'll go after everything he can on not only guns, but every other leftist/socialist/marxist/whateverist agenda he thinks we as the great unwashed need to have rammed down our throats so that Big Brother can love us adequately.
 
legalizing machine guns
First of all, MGs are legal. You can purchase a Pre-1986 MG with the proper paperwork and tax stamp. I'm not advocating for an all out end of restrictions on MGs right away. What I am advocating for is an attack on the Hughes amendment which closed the registry on MGs in 1986. Just like D.C. pre-Heller, you could have a handgun, provided that you registered it prior to 1976.

Hughes is slightly different, in that the registration is for the MG and not the owner of the MG, but it is still an arbitrary restriction on MG ownership that is not very different from the laws in Chicago or D.C. pre-Heller.
 
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Why was the district court case Remanded instead of just over-turned?




Wouldn't it have been much better and quicker for Chicagoans if it had been simply overturned?
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The Seventh Circuit in upholding the ban said they were bound by Supreme Court precedent.

The Supreme Court gave them new precedent and now the ordinance must be compared to that precedent.

It also gives Chicago more time to set up a plan
 
Gotta love "Machine Gun" Sammy Alito ... :D

I knew he was going to a great justice after reading his dissenting opinion on the reach/limitations of using the Commerce Clause to outright ban ownership in that MG case from his earlier circuit days (can't recall the case's name just now). :cool:
 
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This was a close one......



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/us/29scotus.html?pagewanted=2&src=me


The dissenters drew different conclusions from the historical evidence.

“The reasons that motivated the framers to protect the ability of militiamen to keep muskets available for military use when our nation was in its infancy, or that motivated the Reconstruction Congress to extend full citizenship to freedmen in the wake of the Civil War, have only a limited bearing on the question that confronts the homeowner in a crime-infested metropolis today,” Justice John Paul Stevens wrote in his last dissent before retiring from the court.

He said the court should have proceeded more cautiously in light of “the malleability and elusiveness of history” and because “firearms have a fundamentally ambivalent relationship to liberty.”

“Just as they can help homeowners defend their families and property from intruders,” he wrote, “they can help thugs and insurrectionists murder innocent victims. The threat that firearms will be misused is far from hypothetical, for gun crimes have devastated many of our communities.”

In a dissent joined by Justice Ginsburg and Sotomayor, Justice Breyer said history did not provide clear answers and that the empirical evidence about the consequences of gun control laws are mixed. But there was evidence, he said, that firearms caused 60,000 deaths and injuries in the United States each year and that Chicago’s handgun ban has saved many hundreds of lives since it was enacted in 1983.

All of that, Justice Breyer wrote, counseled in favor of deference to local elected officials in deciding how to regulate guns.
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The first irretrievable part is that no municipality anywhere in the US can pass any law in the area of 2A that is stronger than that of the state in which it resides, "home rule" at least for 2A is DEAD.

Can you elaborate on that? I hope you are right, and am not saying you are wrong,but would love to see where you took that from the ruling.


Easy peasy

2A is Incorporated
It is incorporated against all of the states
It is a fundamental right both federal and state
Individual states MAY, within certain as yet to be determined bounds, apply SOME curbs to an unfettered right in the same manner as 1A

Writ of the SC......

Ergo the right is inherently identical for all inhabitants of THAT state, you can't say, "You have the right to free speech and assembly in X county and only on Tuesdays and Thursdays nights in the one next door." Don't work that way, wholly illegal, deprivation of fundamental civil rights under color of law.

Now, that does NOT inherently imply that just because two folks live on opposite sides of the road, one in PA and one in NJ and can then take a case forward......at least not until we get a lot more 2A case law in place.

With Daley, I expect a rich wealthy seam of these starting very shortly, unfortunate for the folks of Chicago whose taxes will get to pay for hizzoners hubris.
 
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Remember we haven't defeated the Anti's with this 2nd win. We all need to keep voting for the correct politicans and support the NRA. The anti's will never quit this fight so we can't rest thinking that this is a final.

This decision was "won" by only one vote.

Let the composition of the Supreme Court change over time and then look for the liberals to bring another case to roll this one back when the time is right for them.

Any thoughts on how the present Supreme Court candidate would have voted on this one?

Very few wars are won based on the results of one battle.
 
And Daley responds:

"We'll publicly propose a new ordinance very soon," Daley said at an afternoon press conference concerning the gun ban.

"As a city we must continue to stand up ..and fight for a ban on assault weapons .. as well as a crackdown on gun shops," Daley said. "We are a country of laws not a nation of guns."

I can't wait to see what new measures he takes to make sure people can't utilize their rights. What a scumbag. I almost can't believe the people we elect and allow to stay in office. What's wrong with us?
 
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