Meat Eaters vs Magnum Revolvers

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dagger dog

dagger dog

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I'm new to this site and enjoying being able to shoot the breeze with my fellow advocates. Not wanting to step on toes or cause ill feelings to any one. Feeling the questions need to be brought up in the revolver threads.

Why do threads about bear protection wind up with the words .357 .44 Magnum stuck to them? Other than being easily packable ( and that another question) why would you want to go into a situation where you could be mauled or at the worse EATEN, under gunned? Wouldn't it be a better to carry a lever action carbine or shotgun?

The carbine or shotgun can be chambered in known bear stopping rounds. The extra weight can be easily adapted to ,the confidence level is way higher, plus old Joe average can shoot a pump 12ga or .444 carbine way more accuratley.

Personally nothing less than a solid manufactured 12ga. pump with 20" bbl.
extended magazine full of solid slugs and a set of good sights, could give me the confidence to enjoy my cup of coffee setting around the campfire in bear county!:what:
 
#1 - most people are not going to lug around a 12 ga while they are hiking or backpacking.

#2 - a 44 on your hip is a lot better than a 12 ga sitting against a tree 20 ft away. Are you really going to carry the 12 ga every step you take around camp?

#3 - the vast majority of bears (even grizzly) aren't going to come running after you if you don't disturb them. I know one guy who lives in NW Montana and routinely sees grizzlies near his house. You gonna pack a 12 ga back and forth to the wood pile? To the garage? To the trash pile?

#4 - firearms are prohibited in prime grizzly country like Glacier National Park. It's darn hard to conceal a 12 ga effectively.

Ken
 
Its hard to wield that shotgun or rifle when the bear is on top of you.

There's a difference between hunting bear and defending yourself against one. If you are attacked by a bear that has determined you are food its unlikely you will get any warning, just a rush from ambush. If you just cross paths with one there's a good chance you can just back away and they'll leave you alone.

If you are occupied with other activity like fishing, cooking, sleeping, photography, a rifle or shotgun is burdensome and unwieldy and more likely to be left against a tree in the truck, etc. A handgun in a holster can always be at your side and is unobtrusive.
 
Nobody ever asked me what I would carry. I'm with you; I'd pack a 12 gauge minimum, and preferably a Marlin in like 450 BearKILLER. And I would take it to the john with me. I have only seen a really big bear up close at the zoo, and it got my attention. I have seen what a dog can do, don't even want to consider a bear. It don't matter to me if they rarely attack.
 
OHIO,

1. In known bear country wouldn't you carry your protection? Thats a gimme!
2. Yes I'm protecting my life here and maybe others.
3. ditto
4. Wouldn't think of breaking the law! How could you ask such a question?
 
Why do bear protection threads always end in .44 Mag or .357 Mag? Dunno ...I guess out of ignorance. The SHOULD end in 500 Smith & Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, or even .480 Ruger (for the recoil-disinclined.)

The reason for a bear protection handgun is simple. When a grizzly bear charges you, it may be a false charge and he/she will most often turn to the side at about 7 to 10 yards from you (time for you to go home). BUT, when a grizzly bear charges and means it, you don't know until that last 7 to 10 yards ...at most, you have time for one shot before you are in bad breath range. No long gun will help you if the bear is on you, but a sidearm can generally be maneuvered around and fired into the bear's boiler room (heart/lung/spine) or up and back into the head/neck (destroy or stun the Atlas joint and the bear is paralyzed and/or dead, hit the head from underneath and it's dead.)

When black bears charge, they are fast and low and they don't fake the charge. Again, you might only get one shot before the bear is on you ...the handgun principles above apply here as well.

With that said, there have been more human deaths due to dogs in Alaska in the last 100 years than there have been due to bears. Generally, when someone sees a bear charging, he/she is charging AWAY from the humans ...they don't generally like people. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared for the rare occurrence of having the bear attack you. I know more than one person, including my wife, that has been charged. My wife did not get attacked, but two other people that I know did. In both cases, the bear lost ...and in both cases, the bear (black bears) was taken down with a single shot from a 500 S&W with 4" barrel. A friend of a friend was mauled by a black bear and he unloaded all 6 rounds from his .44 Magnum into the bear and the bear did NOT die ...but it did lose its appetite. The bear wandered off and nobody saw it again ...probably died out in the woods somewhere. This guy survived the attack, thanks to the .44 Mag, but nearly died 3 months later from a brain infection from a bear tooth that had penetrated his skull and apparently didn't respond to the initial antibiotic treatement. Don't you think this guy would have been happier with something bigger ...like a .460 or .454 or .500??

Brian
 
1. My wife carries the 12-gauge and yes, we bring it if we are going hiking/snowshoeing/skiing in bear country. I carry my 500 S&W 4". She uses 1-1/8 ounce slugs. I carry my 535gr hand loads.

2. If we're camping, we do carry.

3. Bear attacks are almost always occur when a human surprised the bear. That means the human didn't see the bear either ...so how can you "not disturb" the bear?

4. Prohibiting firearms in bear country is a denial of your basic right of self protection. I won't suggest you break the law, and I'm not telling you what goes in my fanny pack with the easy-open double zipper that opens the whole thing with just a yank.

Brian
 
1 - I avoid bear country, unless you're talking about Coach Harras' Bears.
2 - If I'm hiking with an unsavory politician, kneecapping them with a .357 Magnum is more of a sure thing than shooting the bear.
3 - Rather than fight and shoot or aggravate the bear, again, avoidance is the key. As bears generally are omnivores and gather all kinds of different food, most bear attacks are territorial defense or cub defense, again, avoid.
4 - Tuck the head, bring the knees up to the chest, basically become a human armadillo and let the bear smack you in the back. After a few swats, which will hurt like hell, and you don't do anything to stimulate the bear's continued attention, he'll ignore you. The back muscles and the bones of the the spine and rear ribcage and shoulder blades have protected people from casual bear encounters for years.

.357's are, however, ideal for feral dog and mountain lion, which are more likely to engage in violent assault on humans.
 
I guess the reason might be the immediate availability that a handgun allows by actually being on a person vs leaning a long gun against a tree, wood pile, pole, etc near you; there is an alternative that is bigger than a handgun, but smaller than an average shotgun...a Mossberg 500 Crusier model with pistol grip vs full buttstock; sling it across your back and then you have full 20 ga or 12 ga protection on your person
 
If I am only going to get one shot, I still would rather trust a 12 gauge 870, or rather me with a 12 gauge 870 rather than any handgun. I would likely hesitate more, and be more likely to miss, with a handgun. I do not have enuf years left to ever get as familiar with any handgun as I am with an 870, either.
 
If your bushwhacking your way through thick cover and are in known bear habitat you're going to be on the ball! The long gun is NOT going to be leaned against some tree.
As far as the campfire secenario ,I've heard of campers being drug out of tents or sleeping bags and killed by black and brown bears but most in of these incidents it was in search of food. Maybe the smell of or presence of food on or near the person was enough to give the bear reason to do such a obvious reversal of his natural instincts and fleeing at the sight or sound or smell of man?
Doug may have a valid point 3 and 4(don't know about the out come of 2 though) into the confused bear wether it is the protective sow or the territorial male. No fight not agressive gives up.
The sow being the worst case .

Most and let me repeat that MOST outdoors people hikers ,hunters trappers homesteaders what have you, are eaiser taught long gun and become better shots than with handguns. Hand guns take time especially large caliber hard recoiling ones.
The point made by Conservadude my be the answer BOTH. Another point of kmrcstintn on the cruiser type to save some weight. I found these to be as dangerous to myself as they would be to a bear. I split my upper lip and now wear a moustache to cover the scar, the first time shooting one of those things lesson learned.

Maybe a grenade?
 
I will settle for my 500. I know it sucks to have to settle, but im having trouble locating a .577 t-rex with a 3" barrel. I like the grenade idea....just in case
 
I ain't paranoid of bears. In all my hikes in black bear country, I only ever saw 2. Why be paranoid? I'm sure I might have walked past others that I didn't know were there, didn't get ate. I have a .357 I usually carry and a favorite .45 Colt Blackhawk if I ever get to griz country. I'm good with 'em. I figure if a bear is on top of me, I might still be able to fire on him with a handgun. I might not know he's even there until he's on top of me and that 12 gauge will be useless other than if I can shove it in his mouth to keep him from biting me.

Shotguns suck for hikers. I don't even like hauling the 40+ ounces of Blackhawk around compared to the 35 ounces of .357. Every ounce counts in rough country. You know, I've passed a lot of hikers out on the trail, too, that were unarmed and I never hear of anyone getting ate, not in Texas and New Mexico. It just ain't that big a threat. I've always been unarmed in a national park. You can't legally carry there, anyway. Main reason I'm usually totin' a handgun in country where I can is I might wanna take a rabbit or something and, hell, I'm usually loaded with .38 special. :D I've carried the .45 Colt Blackhawk with light loads, though, thinkin' it'd be more effective on a critter and with light loads, is accurate enough to head shot a rabbit I've only ever taken one rabbit with it, but he died.. Jack rabbit, too, big, could put a hurt on ya. Can't be too careful, ya know, since Jimmy Carter got attacked by a mad rabbit. Swam right out to his row boat lookin' to kill him.:D
 
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Holy thread necromancy, batman! Check the dates...

Funny when the first line of the first post is "I'm new here..." and beside the poster's name is a thread count over 1,000.

-Sam
 
You have a point. Danged if you do, dratted if you don't. :D

Still, when it's sort of a "me too" kind of post and not a request for information ... why?

-Sam
 
I would have guessed the answer is something along of the lines of:

Ask what caliber for bear, on one of the handgun forums, and most people will answer in handgun terms.
 
I'm with McGunner on this one. I've spent a lot more time hiking in bear country unarmed than armed (Southwest Montana near Yellowstone). I'm just not that worried about bears, Black or Grizzly, nor Mountain Lions for that matter. The idea of carrying a long gun when not actively hunting doesn't appeal at all. If I were to travel armed for defense against bear it would likely be with my Model 29 with at 3" barrel. The bears around here aren't quite as big as the Alaskan bears Conservadude has to contend with.

While I do hike more often armed than I used to, its not primarily for bear but for two legged predators, survival hunting if necessary, and just because I can. My newest purchase for that duty is a Ruger SP101 w/3" barrel in .357. (Notice an affinity for 3" barrels? :p)

Besides, what value wilderness if there aren't a few animals that can eat you out there? Want to live forever? :neener:

P.S. I've only actually seen a couple of bears outside of Yellowstone and both of them were high-tailin' it the other way. It's common to run across bear sign though so I know they are around. They leave me alone and I leave them alone.
 
Have you read the hunter vs. bear stories. The very first thing to go missing is their rifle. Something about hundreds of pounds hitting you at 30 mph.

So it doesn't matter much what rifle you carry, typically, you won't have it after 2 to 4 seconds later. 4.5 seconds being the approximate time it takes for a bear to cover 100 yards in any terrain.

Which means, you need something on your person. AH, that would be a pistol. And, as much as many of the people in here that don't like pistols, it is better than punching the bear in the face with your fist. I can refer you to numerous stories of hunters trying this because their rifle was, well, who knows. Their sight is blurred, they are 10 to 15 feet from the place of original contact, and the bear is standing between them and that place anyway.

You need a pistol. No way around that.

A tank would work but you didn't bring one and it would have to have a remote because you aren't in it.
 
I wonder why people think that having a shotgun or rifle automatically means you can't wear a holster.

Also, .44 Magnum may not be the ego round du jour, but I'd much rather shoot a .44 one-handed in a compromised position ("stance" is way too optimistic) than something heavier. Might even be able to hang onto the gun. And the heavy hardcast .44 ammo should work as well as anything else at close range.
 
Furthermore, the grouse or quail gun loaded with birdshot won't be much good for bear defense. A sidearm would be a good idea (we have bears and birds in the same woods here).
 
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