Method of killing game and bullet selection

[Patocazador]

Maybe bigger animals fall faster, but my recent big moose is my example: shouldered first on the run then double lunged on the reload. Once I double lunged him, he maybe went 15 yards and died in less than 30 seconds. Blood spraying from him torso/chest in vertical sprays with his few breaths and buckets coming from his mouth via his breathing tube.

My limited experience with moose .. 3 of them ... is they die easy. What I mean is that after a lethal hit they run a bit and then stand there until they drop .. sometimes bawling a bit. Elk, on the other hand, take off for the next valley and seem to absorb punishment better. Size may not be a good criterium for judging lethality.

I noticed in Africa that some similar-sized animals died easier. That means they were more susceptible to wounds than other species. Kudu and gemsbok (oryx) are close to the same size but kudu and other spiral-horned antelope didn't run as far nor absorb the punishment as gemsbok, wildebeest, hartebeest and zebras.

Of course mine is a limited sample and a much larger sample would be needed to prove such a thing.

 

[jmorris]

Of course mine is a limited sample and a much larger sample would be needed to prove such a thing.

Bison must have practically killed themselves, they didn’t even have rounds with cool names back then and they piled them up.

 

[OFFGRID]

Im not going to argue with that specific advice and anyone would be well served if they took it.

I have far less experience than he but I do have experience with 12 and 20 ga slugs vs deer. Those have abysmal sectional density (.119 for 12 ga) yet are some of the best bang flop projectiles I have ever seen to this day.

I also don’t care about the science as I still will use faster slugs in some circumstances. With the hunting of live game animal, I have found things like sectional density, energy ft-lbs, as well as ballistic gelatin testing only get you so far.

Those things make for fun campfire talk but I have found that what you as an individual have experienced while hunting are the only things you can rely on.

ive always wanted to slug hunt. maybe ill hit you up for tips sometime

 

[earlthegoat2]

ive always wanted to slug hunt. maybe ill hit you up for tips sometime

It was all we could do growing up in MI in the 90s. Shotguns, muzzleloaders, and straight wall handguns. Rifled barrels came about and changed things but really not that much looking back on it. Just raised the price of ammo if you bought sabot slugs.

 

[Thomasss]

I listened to the video...kinda scimmed thru it. The guy makes some sense. I don't believe a thru and thru bullet is necessary as he suggests, though. I also am not a neck shooter. That doesn't mean someone else can't do it. I can't. The video man has his opinion, and that is ok too. I've been deer hunting for 55 years. Most of that time I used cup and core bullets, but on occasion, I have used partition bullets and Nolser's. Although I have difficulty loading Nosler's, they preformed ok. I like small MOA .75, but couldn't really achieve that with partition type bullets. I will say that lung shots, though are not pretty, they are effective in several seconds. And some heart shots stopped deer quickly. But other deer did not stop, without a heart, for 30 to 60 yards. I have sought out my carcass bullets, usually 87% to 94% of original weight.
I've shot .50 call BP at 1700 fps, 30/30 at 2150fps, .303 British at 2300 fps, .270 Win at 2900fps, and 30.06 at 2800fps. Also 5.56 at a little faster. All speeds were effective, though 5.56 needed exact placement for a clean kill. I got rid of the 5.56 after a few years, but again that is just me and my opinion with experience.

 

[alsaqr]

Been deer hunting since 1953. i've tracked dozens of wounded deer and elk for other hunters. My first buck was taken with a 12 gauge shotgun slug. Until 2000 most of my deer were taken using .30-06 rifles and cup and core bullets; nearly all were 150 grain. In 2000 i began hunting deer and hogs almost exclusively with a muzzleloader. i've taken one elk, a huge bull. It was killed with a .30-06 using the Remington bronze point ammunition, the animal fell dead within 20 yards.

Never experienced any problem not related to bullet placement until i took the advice of an "expert" who advised me to use the TC PTX bullet on my elk hunt. i had intended to use the 300 grain .430 XTP bullet. Shot a huge cow elk in the heart lung area at 75 yards. The powder charge was 150 grains of Pyrodex. The bullet failed to expand and exited. The blood trail stopped after about 100 yards. Four others and myself searched for four hours, to no avail. Another hunter found the elk by a creek 1/4 mile away and took it out. The only place we failed to search was along the creek. Talked with the retired Colonel who found that elk. The exit wound was same size as the entry.

Muzzle energy, retained weight, BC and sectional density ain't everything. At ranges to about 100 yards, .50 and .54 caliber muzzleloaders, firing patched round balls kill deer like a well placed .30-06 bullet despite a very low muzzle energy. Try it sometime.

Good luck with your hunt.

 

[Random 8]

I'm going to jump off the bridge and reply with my personal experience based on the summary of the video, and read the rest and maybe watch the video tomorrow.

I hunt mostly relatively thick cover and smallish acreages. A deer crossing a property line or going into unpleasant tracking/retrieving country is almost a certainty with a trail of more than 100 yards.

I favor similar bullets to the video, with the caveat of an impact velocity of less than 2800 fps. I favor a slightly sturdier construction and similar SD if the velocity is increased (NP or Speer GS). I also favor a slightly blunted metplat...more on that later. I favor 2 holes, but more for blood trailing than for any sucking effect. I favor rapid expansion, but not bullet destruction on soft tissue. Some weight loss is cool, so long as enough bullet remains to pass through. I favor CNS shots when practical. I do not favor near side shoulder impacts when possible. I've seen too much go wrong there. I've killed over 100 whitetail in my life, most with a 150 SP from a .30 cal with a MV of 2800fps or less. Mostly inside of 125 yards. Probably 75% have been CNS shots. This formula simply works for me.

As for bullet metplats, I'm a believer in the initial shockwave on impact idea. I think that shockwave cone from the hide into the vitals, not into the off side rib cage originating part way through is important. I believe a flat or RN metplat does this. Some of the BT type designs also do, but IMHO they upset the projectile too much and compromise reliable pass throughs. Sadly, these are getting harder to find these days. I have a cherished supply of the old Speer Mag Tip HC, then I'm on to either a RN or something a bit exotic like the Lapua Mega. In my .280, I'm stepping the Speer GS up to a right snappy speed or shooting a "soft" BTSP for longer range so they do the job.

 

[hawg]

If a deer has his adrenalin up he will run no matter what the damage to heart or lungs. Adrenalin will keep him going long after he should be dead. A calm deer is more likely to drop on the spot. He may struggle to get back up but wont usually make it. I use a 165 grain Nosler BTBT running about 3000 FPS out of a 26 inch 30-06. It turns the lungs to jelly.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What's disputed is whether the exit wound is for bleeding or for suffocating. In the video, he describes sucking chest wounds and explains the function of the diaphragm in inflating the lungs and so forth. He makes it evident that he has a clear understanding of what a sucking chest wound is and claims this is the means of a death sufficiently quick for killing game animals and why the exit wound is to be desired.

Sucking chest wounds kill far too slowly.

RIGHT. Given that large sucking chest wounds can take several minutes to kill (at least for humans for whom the time of the event is known and subsequent medical autopsy determined the cause of death, or people who endured sucking chest wounds and lived for several minutes before treatment), a deer could be a mile away or more by the time it die.

The number of chest wounds isn't really critical so much as the cumulative size of the wounds. It is about the amount of air that can move into the chest more so than the number of places it can do it. The problem with most entry wounds is that they are not very large, so the exit wound needs to be large to making the equalization of air pressure in the chest occur faster.

With that said, shooting through both lungs, I would be hard pressed to believe that the cause of death was due to a sucking chest wound versus bleeding out or suffocation due to the lungs filling with blood. In the grand scheme, I will take asphyxiation (drowning in blood-filled lungs) or exsanguination (bleeding out) over tension pneumothorax as being the most likely and much faster causes of death on game with chest shots by hunters.

Not all sucking chest wounds are necessarily lethal. Specifically, sucking and blowing chest wounds, while often very dramatic, can be survivable, or certainly death may be delayed for until some other means kills the animals (such as by blood loss). That is because the blowing portion of a sucking and blowing chest wound forces out most or all of the air that has gotten into the pleural cavity that would otherwise threaten to collapse the lung(s).

Once I double lunged him, he maybe went 15 yards and died in less than 30 seconds. Blood spraying from him torso/chest in vertical sprays with his few breaths and buckets coming from his mouth via his breathing tube.

Cause of death isn't going to be tension pneumothorax that quickly.

Of course nothing beats a good UPPER CNS shot or indirectly significant UPPER CNS damage (i.e., hydrualic and/or hydrostatic shock) for dropping animals consistently (echoing sentiments noted above).

 

[black mamba]

I'm a big proponent of the high shoulder shot. Large target area, and if you miss high, the spine, if you miss low the heart, if you miss to the side, the lungs. I've killed several dozen head of large game, and every one hit with the high shoulder shot went straight down, even when running. Every animal hit behind the shoulder, regardless of caliber or velocity, went from 30 to over 100 yards before piling up.

 

[JDeere]

Does get base of the skull neck shots and they don't run. If I miss so be it there will be another but that's rare. I shoot my deer rifles year round so I stay in shape. Bucks I want to save the rack get a just behind the shoulder a little low for the heart shot. If they run at all it's not far. I don't believe in wasting any meat with a shoulder shot. That 140 gr SGK will destroy both shoulders.

 

[entropy]

If both those sucking chest wounds lead in to the aorta, you're pretty well assured your game won't go far. That's the shot I go for, and will pass up opportunities if I don't get one.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Me, I just like to go for the pineal gland.

 

[buck460XVR]

Does get base of the skull neck shots and they don't run. If I miss so be it there will be another but that's rare. Bucks I want to save the rack get a just behind the shoulder a little low for the heart shot. If they run at all it's not far. I don't believe in wasting any meat with a shoulder shot.

If this works for you, good. We all have our choices and preferences. I'm gonna guess tho, many folks are not as proficient as you are, especially when it comes to long range shooting. The larger "Boiler room" shot as opposed to the "heart" shot makes for a higher percentage shot. With so many hunters now using an elevated stand to hunt from, the increased angle makes the fist sized heart, even a tougher target.

Back when I used a recurve or longbow, shoulders were a must be, to avoid. Those tools just didn't have the penetration. Not so much anymore. But growing up hunting deer on public land, I learned quickly that 50-100 yards, during the regular gun season, could mean someone else ended up with that deer. Now that so many folks hunt fencelines on their 20-40 acres of private property, the same holds true. High shoulder hits generally are a DRT and generally means the deer is dropping in sight. The rearing back on the hind legs is a good sign that the deer is laying close to where it was shot. The one bag of burger lost means little to me at that point. It's not disrespect to the deer, but respect.

With the onset of CWD in most areas of the country, health officials and state DNRs/F&Gs, advise against intentional shots to any part of the CNS. Having butchered my own deer for over half a century, I have found that the amount of meat on the shoulders of any whitetail deer, does not amount to enough to avoid a primary boiler room shot, especially in the case of a deer, where the "rack" is my primary adjective. Very few, if any of us here in the lower 48, are hunting for subsistence. We are hunting for the sport, even in the case of "meat deer", like does and cull bucks. A "behind the shoulder" shot at most any angle besides pure broadside, may mean a broken shoulder on the other. Behind the shoulder shots when "quartering away" means the shot ends up in the far shoulder anyway. Back when I used primitive archery equipment, this is the shot we waited for or preferred.

 

[JDeere]

@buck460XVR If that works for you OK. I get a lot of meat off the shoulders as I butcher my own as well. Cleaning one without any internal damage is a plus. A busted gut sucks and ruins the meat. I guess I should have clarified that I don't make 200 yd head shots and will take a heart shot or let it ride. I guess I am fortunate to be hunting in an area where deer are abundant. We also have neighbors all around who abide by buck limit guidelines. Nothing less than 3.5 years and a minimum of 8 unless it's a cull or longhorn spike. I let a lot of young bucks walk and most likely will see them the next year as they generally stay close to home. If I kill a buck just because I am afraid someone else will is just plain wrong. They will never mature with that attitude. We have a 5 deer limit, 2 buck max or shoot 5 does...

 

[GooseGestapo]

I don’t buy into the double sucking wound theory!
( but then I’ve got a zoology degree and 60yrs practical experience)


There are two ways to quickly dispatch game:
Central nervous system disruption, or rapid exanguation (blood loss) .
A double lung shot will kill, but a game animal can run a LONG WAYS with a double lung hit!
In 2003, due to a strong cross wind I didn’t adequately compensate for, I double lung shot a cow elk. 250yd shot with a 200gr .338/06 @2,800fps.

It ran over 10mi in a wide circle to end back up with the herd 5-with me trailing it… and was shot by another group of hunters the next day….
Happened AGAIN last year! 150yd shot with 165gr Sierra GameeKing from .30/06. The cow elk twice laid down and wallowed in the snow/mud plugging the holes, and again, ran over 10mi escaping!

A close friend who’s taken several Pope and Young deer and elk, and outfitted/ Guided in East Idaho, has had several elk take an arrow that completely penetrated, and elk recovered to be taken at a later date with healed wounds…..

A high rear lung hit often leads to a lost animal….
Even a through and through heart hit can allow an animal to escape if there is no bullet expansion.
I nearly lost a nice 10pt buck I shot in 2010 with a .35Rem with a 200gr Hornady FTX. No expansion at 25yds with a 2,200fps mv.
No blood trail! Found the deer lying in the firebreak between my property and neighbors. It ran 120yds after the shot knocked it down… 1/4” entrance and 1/4” exit wound…


It’s Shot placement, Shot placement, Shot placement!!
And adequate bullet performance.

 

[Armored farmer]

ive always wanted to slug hunt. maybe ill hit you up for tips sometime

You aren't missing anything.....

 

[Highland Lofts]

Last November my friend lung shot a eight point buck with a 243. About a 25 yard standing still shot. That buck took off and went 780 yards before it expired. That was the farthest I ever tracked a whitetail.
Very little blood.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Last November my friend lung shot a eight point buck with a 243. About a 25 yard standing still shot. That buck took off and went 780 yards before it expired. That was the farthest I ever tracked a whitetail.
Very little blood.

So obviously your deer died of double sucking chest wounds.

 

[Highland Lofts]

He should of hit it a little more forward.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I don’t know what he means by sucking chest wounds but if that is what results from a double lung hit behind the shoulder then that works plenty good and kills fast enough that most folks recommend that shot nearly above all others.

Where there may be contention is on the “two” part. I have run into a segment who swears up and down they want the bullet to dump all its energy into the game animal. Seems like a good theory and in general it is as long as it has destroyed lungs/heart etc. I like an exit wound. If my bullet doesn’t exit on a broadside or close to broadside shot, I will generally move up a power class of rifle and cartridge.

That is generally why my deer rifles have calibers starting with 4 and one starts with a 5. I used a 300 Win Mag last year and it worked splendidly. Go ahead and tell me it is too much if you want. Dead deer will ensure that I am not going to listen.

I can relate to this from both sides of the coin. For many years I did most of my hunting with 30-30. I took some pride in the fact that I killed more deer year after year with that 30-30 than many of my friends who hunted with 300wm, 7mag, etc. I started hunting with 300wm about 10yrs ago and I can't deny that the 300wm generally puts them down quicker. I haven't lost any, missed any, or had to do much tracking when I use 300wm, even in rare cases that it didn't make an exit hole. My shot placement and shot choices haven't changed much and my marksmanship hasn't improved dramatically in the last 10yrs. The only thing that has changed much is my choice of calibre and bullets. So it leaves me with no denial that, all else being equal, the 300wm generally kills quicker and more efficiently than my 30-30.
I still hunt and take deer with my 30-30 every year. Sometimes they drop right there and sometimes they can go a several dozen yds, but I wouldn't argue with anyone who thinks bigger calibre and heavy for caliber bullets are advantagious for quicker kills.