westernrover
Member
- Joined
- May 4, 2018
- Messages
- 1,613
I like this guy's lectures. I have to disagree with him on a point he makes in this one:
Because it's lengthy, I'll summarize this way: He claims the most practical and advisable way to kill game animals (like deer) is to give them two sucking chest wounds. He goes on to suggest what are essentially traditional cup and core hunting bullets and with an additional video where he recommends such bullets based on sectional density (.240's for deer).
I had to check myself because I've found myself departed from his advice and contemplating a further departure which I will explain.
If you take the time to watch the video (I have to admit to watching him at 2x speed sometimes), you might be persuaded by his argument. If you haven't, you might not see the point of my counter-argument.
Sucking chest wounds kill far too slowly. They take several minutes to kill. I carry Hyfin chest seals in my FAK's because I can effectively treat some wounds of that type even though it could easily take me more than two or three minutes to complete the application of the seals. Killing game animals by suffocation just takes too long.
Shot Placement
My son killed a buck last season that was in a group of 7. Within a few minutes of the shot, the other deer were over a mile away and descended over 3000 feet in elevation from us (we were at 9400 feet). Fortunately, we weren't depending on the buck he shot suffocating to death. It only made it about 30 yards. It was able to break visual contact (in trees and behind rocks in the 200 yards between us) and it took us some time to find it. I would have preferred a quicker kill. Bear in mind that while my son made the shot, I'm providing the ammunition and advice on shot placement (which he performed flawlessly).
I have come to the same conclusion about shot placement as Gunblue490 -- as a former bow hunter, my goal is to make a double-lung shot and cut the heart should I be so fortunate. I don't shoot the shoulder, the neck or the brain. I think there are times for those shots so I will not condemn those who make them. Those shots are just not my goal in hunting game animals.
When I endeavor to shoot the lungs, even if I should miss the heart, my goal is not to suffocate the animal, but to drop their blood pressure so low their brain dies. The broadhead doesn't drop the blood pressure as fast as a bullet unless it perforates the heart or aorta. Suffocation may play a part in killing game with an arrow whether it is the sucking chest wounds or filling the lungs with blood, but a broad head is primarily a bloodletting weapon.
Method of Death
I would argue that bullets kill primarily by the loss of blood pressure unless they destroy part of the central nervous system. Striking the brain or spine of a twitchy game animal at 300 yards is too ambitious a goal for my skills and the consequences of a near hit are too evil for me to dare to attempt it.
From the study of terminal ballistics in gel and so forth, we understand that bullets create stretch cavities in soft tissue. With appropriate ballistic characteristics, the stretching can be enough to permanently tear tissue. With high velocity bullets, the stretching is sufficient to tear the entire organism of smaller varmints. In humans and similarly sized game animals like deer, the stretching resulting from a high velocity rifle bullet can be sufficient to tear apart individual organs or destroy blood vessels adjacent to the immediate crush path of the bullet.
The lungs are not just for air. Sucking chest wounds that don't destroy lung tissue can prevent the diaphragm from inflating the lungs, but the resulting suffocation takes too long to kill. If lung tissue is destroyed by a bullet tearing through it, there will be a massive loss of blood pressure. Lungs serve the function of air-to-blood exchange. The lungs contain a few large blood vessels like the bronchial arteries, but they also contains massive amounts of much smaller ones all the way down to the alveoli. Whether the bullet tears a few big arteries or many thousands of tinier ones, the result is a big drop in blood pressure that will terminate brain function in seconds.
I understand that "seconds" can be too long to effect a "stop" in defensive shooting. In defensive shooting, the practice is for a sniper to effect an immediate stop with a deep brain shot or at least burst the cranial cavity. For those not able to place such a shot, they are dependent on "psychological" stops or repeated hits to the "center mass" (heart, lungs, spine) to effect the stop as quickly as possible.
For hunting game animals, I think that the greater certainty of a kill within seconds is preferrable to the lower probability of successfully placing a CNS hit. "Seconds" are quick enough.
Bullet Type
Using the killing method proposed by Gunblue490, that is creating sucking chest wounds, his advice to use an expanding bullet follows reason. He explains that any bullet is going to make a relatively small entry wound that could self-seal. He desires bullet expansion and through-and-through penetration effecting a large exit wound to create a sufficiently large sucking chest wound to cause suffocation. Nevertheless, he goes on to suggest traditional cup and core bullets even though he explicitly denies the need for any fragmentation. If his method of killing was advisable, an expanding copper monolithic bullet (Barnes TTSX etc.) would be best. Because they expand very well and don't fragment and shed mass, they could be expected to most reliably produce the exit wound that he suggests is the best means of killing. I don't understand his rationale for dismissing Nosler Partitions and Swift A-frames since they would similarly be very dependable in producing exit wounds with an expanded bullet.
If destruction of lung and heart tissue and the tearing of blood vessels to effect a rapid loss of blood pressure is the preferred method of killing, then traditional cup and core bullets (Sierra Gameking) could produce greater wounding of that type, but I think they need to be sufficiently tough for the given target. An exit wound is a path for blood loss (and bloodtrailing as well). So we wouldn't want to use varmint bullets or a cup and core that is insufficient for the target (Moose).
I'm aware that there are other methods of killing that have been described as "shock" that result in immediate cessation of life (DRT), but I've not been made aware of a particular bullet or shot placement (other than a direct CNS hit) that can effect such kills consistently.
I have, up until this point, used Barnes TTSX and LRX exclusively. I'm considering the Lehigh Controlled Chaos (for mule deer and pronghorn). Bear in mind that Lehigh changed the CC bullets from brass to copper a few years ago and they expand at lower velocities now. I understand the early brass bullets had a poor reputation.
The base penetrates 24" -- enough to ensure an exit wound in deer and pronghorn. I do recognize his gel is neither calibrated nor temperature controlled. I see fairly deep penetration of the petals -- 8 or 9" maybe. Importantly, I see a huge stretch cavity that I believe would tear a lot of lung tissue. I do have a Grendel, but my boys shoot Creedmoor now and I also have a Magnum both of which could shoot this same bullet and should create with it even more wounding in the thoracic cavity without destroying meat.
Note that the Controlled Chaos is not a "fragmenting" bullet that fragments on hard barriers, nor is it a bullet that breaks into tiny low-mass pieces that fail to penetrate. It uses fluid pressure to expand like a hollowpoint, but the petals shear off the base. I might hope that it will work something like a combination of a Gameking and a TTSX. I don't have any actual results of my own yet. For sure, it would be less effective at producing a large sucking exit wound to effect death by suffocation. I don't believe that is the right goal.
Because it's lengthy, I'll summarize this way: He claims the most practical and advisable way to kill game animals (like deer) is to give them two sucking chest wounds. He goes on to suggest what are essentially traditional cup and core hunting bullets and with an additional video where he recommends such bullets based on sectional density (.240's for deer).
I had to check myself because I've found myself departed from his advice and contemplating a further departure which I will explain.
If you take the time to watch the video (I have to admit to watching him at 2x speed sometimes), you might be persuaded by his argument. If you haven't, you might not see the point of my counter-argument.
Sucking chest wounds kill far too slowly. They take several minutes to kill. I carry Hyfin chest seals in my FAK's because I can effectively treat some wounds of that type even though it could easily take me more than two or three minutes to complete the application of the seals. Killing game animals by suffocation just takes too long.
Shot Placement
My son killed a buck last season that was in a group of 7. Within a few minutes of the shot, the other deer were over a mile away and descended over 3000 feet in elevation from us (we were at 9400 feet). Fortunately, we weren't depending on the buck he shot suffocating to death. It only made it about 30 yards. It was able to break visual contact (in trees and behind rocks in the 200 yards between us) and it took us some time to find it. I would have preferred a quicker kill. Bear in mind that while my son made the shot, I'm providing the ammunition and advice on shot placement (which he performed flawlessly).
I have come to the same conclusion about shot placement as Gunblue490 -- as a former bow hunter, my goal is to make a double-lung shot and cut the heart should I be so fortunate. I don't shoot the shoulder, the neck or the brain. I think there are times for those shots so I will not condemn those who make them. Those shots are just not my goal in hunting game animals.
When I endeavor to shoot the lungs, even if I should miss the heart, my goal is not to suffocate the animal, but to drop their blood pressure so low their brain dies. The broadhead doesn't drop the blood pressure as fast as a bullet unless it perforates the heart or aorta. Suffocation may play a part in killing game with an arrow whether it is the sucking chest wounds or filling the lungs with blood, but a broad head is primarily a bloodletting weapon.
Method of Death
I would argue that bullets kill primarily by the loss of blood pressure unless they destroy part of the central nervous system. Striking the brain or spine of a twitchy game animal at 300 yards is too ambitious a goal for my skills and the consequences of a near hit are too evil for me to dare to attempt it.
From the study of terminal ballistics in gel and so forth, we understand that bullets create stretch cavities in soft tissue. With appropriate ballistic characteristics, the stretching can be enough to permanently tear tissue. With high velocity bullets, the stretching is sufficient to tear the entire organism of smaller varmints. In humans and similarly sized game animals like deer, the stretching resulting from a high velocity rifle bullet can be sufficient to tear apart individual organs or destroy blood vessels adjacent to the immediate crush path of the bullet.
The lungs are not just for air. Sucking chest wounds that don't destroy lung tissue can prevent the diaphragm from inflating the lungs, but the resulting suffocation takes too long to kill. If lung tissue is destroyed by a bullet tearing through it, there will be a massive loss of blood pressure. Lungs serve the function of air-to-blood exchange. The lungs contain a few large blood vessels like the bronchial arteries, but they also contains massive amounts of much smaller ones all the way down to the alveoli. Whether the bullet tears a few big arteries or many thousands of tinier ones, the result is a big drop in blood pressure that will terminate brain function in seconds.
I understand that "seconds" can be too long to effect a "stop" in defensive shooting. In defensive shooting, the practice is for a sniper to effect an immediate stop with a deep brain shot or at least burst the cranial cavity. For those not able to place such a shot, they are dependent on "psychological" stops or repeated hits to the "center mass" (heart, lungs, spine) to effect the stop as quickly as possible.
For hunting game animals, I think that the greater certainty of a kill within seconds is preferrable to the lower probability of successfully placing a CNS hit. "Seconds" are quick enough.
Bullet Type
Using the killing method proposed by Gunblue490, that is creating sucking chest wounds, his advice to use an expanding bullet follows reason. He explains that any bullet is going to make a relatively small entry wound that could self-seal. He desires bullet expansion and through-and-through penetration effecting a large exit wound to create a sufficiently large sucking chest wound to cause suffocation. Nevertheless, he goes on to suggest traditional cup and core bullets even though he explicitly denies the need for any fragmentation. If his method of killing was advisable, an expanding copper monolithic bullet (Barnes TTSX etc.) would be best. Because they expand very well and don't fragment and shed mass, they could be expected to most reliably produce the exit wound that he suggests is the best means of killing. I don't understand his rationale for dismissing Nosler Partitions and Swift A-frames since they would similarly be very dependable in producing exit wounds with an expanded bullet.
If destruction of lung and heart tissue and the tearing of blood vessels to effect a rapid loss of blood pressure is the preferred method of killing, then traditional cup and core bullets (Sierra Gameking) could produce greater wounding of that type, but I think they need to be sufficiently tough for the given target. An exit wound is a path for blood loss (and bloodtrailing as well). So we wouldn't want to use varmint bullets or a cup and core that is insufficient for the target (Moose).
I'm aware that there are other methods of killing that have been described as "shock" that result in immediate cessation of life (DRT), but I've not been made aware of a particular bullet or shot placement (other than a direct CNS hit) that can effect such kills consistently.
I have, up until this point, used Barnes TTSX and LRX exclusively. I'm considering the Lehigh Controlled Chaos (for mule deer and pronghorn). Bear in mind that Lehigh changed the CC bullets from brass to copper a few years ago and they expand at lower velocities now. I understand the early brass bullets had a poor reputation.
The base penetrates 24" -- enough to ensure an exit wound in deer and pronghorn. I do recognize his gel is neither calibrated nor temperature controlled. I see fairly deep penetration of the petals -- 8 or 9" maybe. Importantly, I see a huge stretch cavity that I believe would tear a lot of lung tissue. I do have a Grendel, but my boys shoot Creedmoor now and I also have a Magnum both of which could shoot this same bullet and should create with it even more wounding in the thoracic cavity without destroying meat.
Note that the Controlled Chaos is not a "fragmenting" bullet that fragments on hard barriers, nor is it a bullet that breaks into tiny low-mass pieces that fail to penetrate. It uses fluid pressure to expand like a hollowpoint, but the petals shear off the base. I might hope that it will work something like a combination of a Gameking and a TTSX. I don't have any actual results of my own yet. For sure, it would be less effective at producing a large sucking exit wound to effect death by suffocation. I don't believe that is the right goal.
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