Michigan CCW question

[the naked prophet]

I'm taking a trip to Michigan (Detroit) and I have a question about concealed carry. I did a search, on google, on handgunlaw.us, and and here on THR and couldn't come up with an answer.

Can a business post a "no-guns" sign with any weight? In MO, that makes a business with a "no-guns" sign one of the prohibited places, and I've read in Florida that the law says those signs hold no weight. Michigan law appears to be silent on the issue, so far as I can tell.

If a building is posted in Michigan, is it okay to carry there? I won't have a choice as to whether to go, it's for business - it's not like I can decide not to patronize this place if it's posted.

Thanks.

 

[Fisherman_48768]

Can a business post a "no-guns" sign with any weight?

Yes a private business can post their business, they can then ask you to leave, if you refuse then the crime is trespassing. http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf

 

[Sheldon J]

You will not find too many places posted, a few malls have a picture of a gun with a circle N slash line, but I do not believe that is a valid off limits sign to someone with a CCW, I just went to the Mi AG site and we have reciprocity with your state so you are good to go, just remember no carry in bars, sports arena, for a complete listing go to http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17334_17362_22672---,00.html all of our CCW stuff is there.

 

[cambeul41]

Fisherman_48768

Please be more specific as to the law you refer to. I have looked at the book and have not found it.

I have never seen such a sign in Michigan -- except at already banned places such as court houses.

Of course I would leave if asked, law or no law.

 

[creitzel]

Also

be aware that you are required to notify law enforcement officers that you are licensed to carry and are carrying, during any official contact with them.

 

[NoWake]

A business that is not one of the type listed on the State's website as a pistol free zone has the option of posting signs saying they prohibit carrying in their establishment.
From what I have read, the most you could get charged with would be trespassing, and it sounds like that would be very unlikely unless you refused to leave when asked, or if you make a scene.

 

[the naked prophet]

Thanks everyone. That's what I've been looking for.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Signs carry zero weight here. If you're made, they can ask you to leave, and if you don't, then you can get stuck for various trespassing charges.

Actually, in the years I've carried here, I've yet to see a no guns sign except on the entrance to the oakland county court building.

You can carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, but not a bar. Chain restaurants that serve beer and wine are ok, but a bar with a single half page menu would obviously not be.

 

[Geno]

TNP:

What part of Detroit are you visiting? Most of the city is fairly decent, but like any city there are crime areas (stating the obvious). So, what brings you to Detroit, if you don't mind me asking? Also, when will you be here? Maybe we can have some the SE MI THR members get together at a range and have some fun!

I agree with 10 Ring Tao...never seen a no-gun sign.

Gene (Doc2005)

 

[10 Ring Tao]

I'm down for some indoor handgun time, or a round of sporting clays at island lake.

 

[bsf]

........You can carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, but not a bar. Chain restaurants that serve beer and wine are ok, but a bar with a single half page menu would obviously not be.

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation.

Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a)…………………..
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

Are you certain? I have never read or heard any discussion on the specifics of this. How do you know if a “bar” meets the standard of “primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises”?

 

[thumbody]

bsf

the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises

Are you certain? I have never read or heard any discussion on the specifics of this. How do you know if a “bar” meets the standard of “primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises”?

Primary source of income means a business where 50% or more of their income comes from the sale of alcohol. If you go to Olive Garden ,Outback, Lonestar etc, their main income is from food sales. If you go to Joe's bar most of his income is likely to come from sales of alcohol.

 

[Thain]

The Value City Warehouse chain of (****ty) furniture stores has no weapons signs posted at all locations... I'd protest with my wallet if not for the simple fact they nothing they sell is worth buying anyway.

Orange leather sofa with matching ottoman?

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Thum has it right, the actual guideline is 51% for on premesis consumption. I was trying to give a more pragmatic guideline.

 

[bsf]

Rant on. I understand primary = 50% or more.

How do you know, though? I am harping on this because not only are gun-free zones a bad idea in the first place, this law is poorly written. These establishments are not required to post whether they are a gun-free zones or not.

Officer, I had not idea that Tavern X’s primary source of income was alcohol sales. I honestly thought it was no more than 49.5%. Stupid. :banghead:

I feel better now. Rant off.

 

[Thain]

My general rule-of-thumb is to compare the food menu with the liquor list. Four types of beer and a four page list of entrees? Resturant...

Four food items max (all of `em deepfried and salty) and forty-four types of whiskey? Tavern...

 

[Ukraine Train]

I went to college in Flint and I don't think I ever saw a sign in MI. They're pretty level headed up there. Relatively, anyway. When Ohio passed its CCW law the signs sprang up like weeds. Definitely carry in Detroit, though.

 

[SteveS]

I have seen several signs, ranging from a large picture of a pistol with a circle and line through it, to a small "no weapons" at the entrance to a mall.

It is also important to consider that Michigan's "Stand your Ground" law that recently went into effect will provide some level of protection to people that use deadly force to protect themselves only applies if the person is some place that they are "lawfully allowed to be." If you are in an establishment that has a "no weapons" sign then you can be considered to be a trespasser and may not receive the benefit of the "stand your Ground" law. AFAIK, this has not been tested in court, but it is certainly possible, given how the statute is worded.