Mid-range loads for .223

[jaysouth]

I shoot a lot at a range that has a max range of 107 yards. I have been experimenting with "mid-range" loads that are adequate for that range.

It started with 45-46-50 gr. jacketed bullets over a light charge of faster powder. I first tried 5-6 grs. Red dot. The charge was adequate but my powder measure did meter this bulky flake powder as well as it could. Best accuracy was 4-5 inches at max range with a lot of fiddling with the scope. Next I moved on to 2400. 14 grs. of 2400 under 45-46-50-55 gr jacketed bullets did not require adjusting zero. Accuracy was 2" or less. Shot in a Remington 700 LTR with 20 inch 1:9 twist barrel.

In addition to not requiring match prepped brass, is the economy of such light loads. Plus, the brass is barely warm to the hand when ejected immediately after firing.

Has anyone experimented with .223 loads in this range? Next trip I will load up loads with 15 and 16 grs. of 2400 and take my chrony and camera.

 

[CMV]

My Rem 700 really likes 55gr Hornady VMAX. The Midsouth Varmint Nightmare or Hornady softpoints are almost as good for less $ and it likes them too. Hornady 2266B, Hornady 22272 are the ones I use.

It has no problem hitting 2" targets @ 300 yds - in your case, inch or less is very realistic expectation for them @107.

 

[jaysouth]

Despite my barrel on this one having a 1:9 twist, lighter bullets do very well. A 46 gr JHP over 23.5 grs 335 is my most accurate load to date.

I really like these "mid-range" loads because they do not heat the barrel very hot. I shot 50 rounds in a little over an hour and the barrel did not heat up. I am going to guess that the velocity was 2400fps. At that velocity a barrel should last forever.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Since you like the Red Dot loads but not the metering why not try a fast ball powder like W231 instead of a magnum class flake powder like 2400? AA#2 is even faster and close to Red Dot on the burn rate charts.

 

[joneb]

Try Blue Dot, Search seafire Blue Dot.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/blue-dot-223-load.575061/

 

[jaysouth]

Since you like the Red Dot loads but not the metering why not try a fast ball powder like W231 instead of a magnum class flake powder like 2400? AA#2 is even faster and close to Red Dot on the burn rate charts.

The "mousefart" loads with 5-7 grs of fast pistol powders requires too much scope adjustment for 100 yard shooting. Extrapolating data from cast bullet data, they run at about 1700 fps. The load with 14 grs of 2400 does not require more than a click or two of elevation from full pressure loads.

For pistol loads, I have used 231/HP-38/Zip (all the same powder) for decades for 9mm and .45 auto. Once I used it for subsonic cast bullet loads in 30-30. It burned clean and was not position sensitive.

 

[Walkalong]

From that old thread:

Blue Dot is the best for reduced loads, but it is position sensitive.

With BD, primers and powder charge weight matter, as well as the position inside the case.

I will second the "position in the case" part for sure. It is position sensitive, at least in .22 Hornet. In one position it was fine. In the other position, it severely blew primers.

Y'all be careful out there.

 

[Toprudder]

I don't have much experience in this area, as I have never tried pistol powders in 223, but I don't like the idea of a powder that has low case-fill. For this application, I would seriously consider trying Trailboss powder. Fill the case up to the base of the bullet with no compression - that would be your max charge.

 

[Bartojc]

I would not use a fast pistol powder in .223 because of case fill. I would try Trailboss as Toprudder suggests or maybe some H4895 and reduce as needed down to 60%.

-Jeff

 

[Olon]

Do you think that reduced load red dot would work in an AR? That would be a nice money saver for general messing around loads.

 

[Toprudder]

I would not use a fast pistol powder in .223 because of case fill. I would try Trailboss as Toprudder suggests or maybe some H4895 and reduce as needed down to 60%.

-Jeff

That reminded me, I tested H4895 down to 21.5gn w/ 55gn bullets, but I was looking for a low recoil load that still cycled an AR. I did not try going any lower. I tested up to 26.0 gn. I did not chrono the loads, though. Hodgdon shows 26.0gn as the max, so the lower limit would be 26.0 x 0.6 = 15.6gn.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That reminded me, I tested H4895 down to 21.5gn w/ 55gn bullets, but I was looking for a low recoil load that still cycled an AR. I did not try going any lower. I tested up to 26.0 gn. I did not chrono the loads, though. Hodgdon shows 26.0gn as the max, so the lower limit would be 26.0 x 0.6 = 15.6gn.

Correct, according to Hodgdon 15.6gr is the reduced starting charge weight. To dial in accuracy you can move up from there.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Toprudder, did the starting load of H4895 cycle an AR-15 with 55gr bullets?

I'm curious to follow this as I also want to explore reduced velocity .223 loads soon. I'd really like to be able to shoot steel with my new CZ527, and full power .223 ammo is definitely out. But I have some H4895. If I can get the velocity down to 2400-fps or so, I may be in business. I don't expect my AR to function at that load level.

 

[jaysouth]

Toprudder, did the starting load of H4895 cycle an AR-15 with 55gr bullets?

I'm curious to follow this as I also want to explore reduced velocity .223 loads soon. I'd really like to be able to shoot steel with my new CZ527, and full power .223 ammo is definitely out. But I have some H4895. If I can get the velocity down to 2400-fps or so, I may be in business. I don't expect my AR to function at that load level.

Scroll down the page in the link attached, and read a couple of threads. Cast bullet shooters have been shooting greatly reduced loads for a long time with no adverse effects.

For your CZ, try 2400 or AA 9 in 12-14 grs. It will smack steel with authority. 2400 is not position sensitive which is why 16 grs of 2400 is the universal load for cast bullets in the 150-180gr range. At a level of 14 grs. you get 500 loads per pound of powder.

If you are not bothered by re-zero, load a 45-46-50 gr. bullet with 5-6 grs of 231. It will smack steel loudly enough to register a hit. but going from 100 to 200 yards, you will probably get a foot of drop. That load is also an excellent low-noise pest control or squirrel hunting load. five grs of powder gives you 1,400 loads per pound.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/google.php?cx=partner-pub-6216953551359885:1942134700&cof=FORID:9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=223+mousefart+loads&sa.x=11&sa.y=9&siteurl=castboolits.gunloads.com/&ref=&ss=10790j4813356j39

 

[jaysouth]

I don't have much experience in this area, as I have never tried pistol powders in 223, but I don't like the idea of a powder that has low case-fill. For this application, I would seriously consider trying Trailboss powder. Fill the case up to the base of the bullet with no compression - that would be your max charge.

There is an excellent discussion at this link. Scroll down to reply 15 for accuracy results. The discussion is about greatly reduced loads with cast bullets. To extrapolate that data to jacketed bullets will start another discussion. Some say increase powder load by 1 gr., some say decrease load by 1 gr. At this level, I say it's not critical. BUT a stuck jacketed bullet in your bore is a chore to remove.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?166421-H-amp-R-223-w-CBs

 

[CMV]

Toprudder, did the starting load of H4895 cycle an AR-15 with 55gr bullets?

I'm curious to follow this as I also want to explore reduced velocity .223 loads soon. I'd really like to be able to shoot steel with my new CZ527, and full power .223 ammo is definitely out. But I have some H4895. If I can get the velocity down to 2400-fps or so, I may be in business. I don't expect my AR to function at that load level.

Why can't you do that with any 55gr load? I'm typically @ 300 yds, but even if @ 100, 55gr knock the paint off AR500, but that's it. Or are you wanting something to get more up close & personal with the steel & AR? I'd like to do that myself but am too much of a spatter weenie But @ 100yds or greater, I think I'd die of old age before pitting up both sides of a 3/8 plate to unserviceable level.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Why can't you do that with any 55gr load? I'm typically @ 300 yds, but even if @ 100, 55gr knock the paint off AR500, but that's it. Or are you wanting something to get more up close & personal with the steel & AR? I'd like to do that myself but am too much of a spatter weenie But @ 100yds or greater, I think I'd die of old age before pitting up both sides of a 3/8 plate to unserviceable level.

Think more up close and personal. Like 40-60 yards. Yes, I'm aware of the potential hazards. It's part of the limitation of having a shooting range in the woods.

My current members-only range no longer has steel on the rifle ranges, only allows cardboard and paper, must be fired at the fixed target points, etc. I was going to get a 9mm carbine for the woods range, but the CZ was too pretty to pass up.

Thanks for the links and hints. Since I don't cast at the moment, I was thinking reduced loads with fragile bullets might do exactly what I have in mind. I happen to have 2400 and W231 on hand even.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Try Blue Dot, Search seafire Blue Dot.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/blue-dot-223-load.575061/

Plus one. I love Bluedot in about anything.

 

[jaysouth]

Think more up close and personal. Like 40-60 yards. Yes, I'm aware of the potential hazards. It's part of the limitation of having a shooting range in the woods.

My current members-only range no longer has steel on the rifle ranges, only allows cardboard and paper, must be fired at the fixed target points, etc. I was going to get a 9mm carbine for the woods range, but the CZ was too pretty to pass up.

Thanks for the links and hints. Since I don't cast at the moment, I was thinking reduced loads with fragile bullets might do exactly what I have in mind. I happen to have 2400 and W231 on hand even.

Frangible bullets are your friend at those ranges. You can browse RMR, Gator bullets, Monmouth, etc to find pulldowns or surplus cheaper.

http://sinterfire.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=81

 

[CMV]

Please update with your results. Mild load + frangible + steel @ close range.....very interested.

Does frangible need a min velocity to break up? Wonder if too slow they could hold together & bounce or spatter back in large chunks? Never messed with them.

I'm prob still too much a weenie to try even if it works.....need to steal kid's airsoft gun

 

[Toprudder]

Toprudder, did the starting load of H4895 cycle an AR-15 with 55gr bullets?

I'm curious to follow this as I also want to explore reduced velocity .223 loads soon. I'd really like to be able to shoot steel with my new CZ527, and full power .223 ammo is definitely out. But I have some H4895. If I can get the velocity down to 2400-fps or so, I may be in business. I don't expect my AR to function at that load level.

I only went down to 21.5gn of H4895, and it cycled my AR pistol. I wish I had measured with a chrono, but I don't have any idea of the velocity.

FWIW, I was looking for reduced velocity (and reduced flash/bang) for my AR pistol. I ended up choosing H4198, one of the faster burning rifle powders. The lowest charge of 19.0gn (55gn bullets) gave ~2200fps in my pistol, and 2490fps in my 16" carbine. It cycled the pistol just fine, but my mid-length carbine needed a charge of 20.5gn before it cycled and locked open on empty. A carbine-length gas system might work at the lower charge.

 

[jaysouth]

Went to the range yesterday to get some target photos. All loads were over 2400.




Interesting that the leadsled groups were not really that much better than the bipod.

 

[BWS]

My '18 12T ADL 223 is loving IMR4198. Now,this is with cast only but....... from a little below starting loads,up to almost max book,there's several note worthy accuracy "spots".

Had to dig up,and around handloading the 222 to get past several bumps in the research rd. on finding data on lower nodes with a bolt rifle in 223. Seems the AR has cast a pretty big shadow? Further,the 4198's aren't getting that much press these days? I had a 722 in .222..... seriously accurate with IMR4198. Good luck with your project.

 

[Toprudder]

My '18 12T ADL 223 is loving IMR4198. Now,this is with cast only but....... from a little below starting loads,up to almost max book,there's several note worthy accuracy "spots".

Had to dig up,and around handloading the 222 to get past several bumps in the research rd. on finding data on lower nodes with a bolt rifle in 223. Seems the AR has cast a pretty big shadow? Further,the 4198's aren't getting that much press these days? I had a 722 in .222..... seriously accurate with IMR4198. Good luck with your project.

I have a 8.5" barrel AR, and I use H4198 and light bullets for it. 4198 loaded at the min charge operates it well, and the flash/bark is noticeably less than slower powders. Very economical, too, 19.0gn powder with a 55 bullet costs about 19 cents a round.

 

[Nature Boy]

Interesting that the leadsled groups were not really that much better than the bipod

Not to me. I've never been able to get a rifle to shoot consistently or accurately off of one.