Low-Sci
Member
I think the best course of action is just to presume that they're innocent until proven guilty. If they're at the range to have a good time, and you're at the range to have a good time, why are you ruining your day with this?
Middle Easterners at the range
- Thread starter aerod1
- Start date
- Status
My best man at my wedding was from Iran. He was very obviously of Middle Eastern descent He was in middle/high school during the Iran hostage period. He got a lot of abuse. He was here because his family got out when the Shah took over.
He wasn't a threat to this country.
My guess is that if you have a group of young men that are acting socially and having a good time, then their motives are obvious - to have a good time. (Regardless of their race, creed, or religion.)
A terrorist cell is not likely to appear together in public. They would be more likely to keep themselves seperated from each other as much as possible. So that if one member is nabbed it is harder to make connections to the rest of them. I also doubt that any terrorist intending to cause mischief in a foreign land would want to do anything that would draw attention to themselves.
Remember: "It's always the quiet ones!"
He wasn't a threat to this country.
My guess is that if you have a group of young men that are acting socially and having a good time, then their motives are obvious - to have a good time. (Regardless of their race, creed, or religion.)
A terrorist cell is not likely to appear together in public. They would be more likely to keep themselves seperated from each other as much as possible. So that if one member is nabbed it is harder to make connections to the rest of them. I also doubt that any terrorist intending to cause mischief in a foreign land would want to do anything that would draw attention to themselves.
Remember: "It's always the quiet ones!"
I have several very good friends who are Iranian, as well as others who are from the Middle east. All of them are extremely good people. While I have my own thoughts about Islam, I'm inclined to think that most muslims are just average people with lives not much different than ours.
That said, I won't begrudge anyone a little bit of prejudice. Whether its warranted or not, things like that keep people on their toes and sometimes mean the difference between walking away and being carried away.
At the end of the day, no one knows about it but you, and it keeps you alert so I really see no downside.
That said, I won't begrudge anyone a little bit of prejudice. Whether its warranted or not, things like that keep people on their toes and sometimes mean the difference between walking away and being carried away.
At the end of the day, no one knows about it but you, and it keeps you alert so I really see no downside.
MrTuffPaws
Member
Ah, government fueled racism, fear, and paranoia. Lord help us if we ever getting into a spat with a country that is populated with white people.
Oh and for the guy on the first page that it wasn’t clean cut white guys who flew planes into the world trade center, well, yeah, but who blew up the OK City Federal building?
Oh and for the guy on the first page that it wasn’t clean cut white guys who flew planes into the world trade center, well, yeah, but who blew up the OK City Federal building?
hellinpetticoats
Member
Choice of Target
So at this range could I use a Hillary target? Do folks at the range normally use pictures of people? I say nevermind the PC route. Call Homeland Security and let them determine if they're GGs or BGs. Wouldn't you feel like a dope if they take out a local school in the near future. Nothing wrong with "Better Safe Than Sorry"
So at this range could I use a Hillary target? Do folks at the range normally use pictures of people? I say nevermind the PC route. Call Homeland Security and let them determine if they're GGs or BGs. Wouldn't you feel like a dope if they take out a local school in the near future. Nothing wrong with "Better Safe Than Sorry"
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
well, I think I'm gonna call the FBI on you Mr. Petticoats!
From New Jersey? check
Goofy Handle? Check
You, Sir, are under suspicion for being a mobster.
From New Jersey? check
Goofy Handle? Check
You, Sir, are under suspicion for being a mobster.
hellinpetticoats
Member
Owen, darlin'
(1) hellinpetticoats comes from a movie (Shadow Riders) in which the female lead (Katherine Ross) is referred to as hell in petticoats. (2) I'm definately not a "Mr." (3) Believe it or not, at the top of The Republik of New Jersey (a/k/a Corzineistan) there are lots of us gun nuts who have nothing to do with the Sopranos.....think Cowboy Action Shooting.
(1) hellinpetticoats comes from a movie (Shadow Riders) in which the female lead (Katherine Ross) is referred to as hell in petticoats. (2) I'm definately not a "Mr." (3) Believe it or not, at the top of The Republik of New Jersey (a/k/a Corzineistan) there are lots of us gun nuts who have nothing to do with the Sopranos.....think Cowboy Action Shooting.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
Better safe than sorry
Rafterman191
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2006
- Messages
- 87
Wow I hope....
we are not judged by the small minority of small minded individuals who make assumptions based on what Fred from the hardware store said about so and so. Talk about your ugly cycles. Arabs are judged by the actions of a handful of radical losers, in turn we provide them with our own radical and knowledge challenged losers to fuel the flames. Wake up and smell the coffee narrow minders, do you want your children to live in a world where they are hated and hate with no justification? For your own sake, be a gun nut, not a nut with a gun.
we are not judged by the small minority of small minded individuals who make assumptions based on what Fred from the hardware store said about so and so. Talk about your ugly cycles. Arabs are judged by the actions of a handful of radical losers, in turn we provide them with our own radical and knowledge challenged losers to fuel the flames. Wake up and smell the coffee narrow minders, do you want your children to live in a world where they are hated and hate with no justification? For your own sake, be a gun nut, not a nut with a gun.
Rafterman191
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2006
- Messages
- 87
Also.....
would you feel weirded out if you were at the range and a group of albinos showed up? OK bad comparison, because I might be a little weirded out.
would you feel weirded out if you were at the range and a group of albinos showed up? OK bad comparison, because I might be a little weirded out.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
How can you tell if a clown is albino? Don't they wear white grease paint?
(closing in 3 2 1)
(closing in 3 2 1)
Hal Romberg
Member
Logic 101:
If Most terrorists are Military aged Male Arabs(MAMA's):
Does it automatically follow that most MAMA's are terrorists?
NO.
And here's why: because you need to take into account what proportion of the total MAMA population is made up of terrorists. Given the number of terrorist acts (very small) and the number of MAMA's out there (very large), it is reasonable to conclude that only a small percentage of MAMA's are in fact, terrorists.
In other words, most MAMA's are in fact NOT terrorists.
From a logical perspective it may make sense to concentrate the search for terrorists within the MAMA population, On the other hand, it does NOT make sense to suspect every MAMA of being a terrorist.
There was a cool public service ad (never thought I'd type those 4 words together) right after 911. It was a series of faces flashed up just long enough to say the words "I am an American". It was a cross-section of all the races of the world. It kicked a$$. Let's not forget what it really means to be an American. Everybody go look at Oleg's website again.
If Most terrorists are Military aged Male Arabs(MAMA's):
Does it automatically follow that most MAMA's are terrorists?
NO.
And here's why: because you need to take into account what proportion of the total MAMA population is made up of terrorists. Given the number of terrorist acts (very small) and the number of MAMA's out there (very large), it is reasonable to conclude that only a small percentage of MAMA's are in fact, terrorists.
In other words, most MAMA's are in fact NOT terrorists.
From a logical perspective it may make sense to concentrate the search for terrorists within the MAMA population, On the other hand, it does NOT make sense to suspect every MAMA of being a terrorist.
There was a cool public service ad (never thought I'd type those 4 words together) right after 911. It was a series of faces flashed up just long enough to say the words "I am an American". It was a cross-section of all the races of the world. It kicked a$$. Let's not forget what it really means to be an American. Everybody go look at Oleg's website again.
mrmeval
Member
It's easy. Invite them to shoot your guns and allow them to have fun. If they intend evil, good might worm it's way into one or more of them by your hospitality.
You can also judge them better if they are closer.
You can also judge them better if they are closer.
wallysparx
Member
And I'd like to know where you got this "understanding" from. Islam in itself was a cultural revolution when it first emerged; so why would the Muslims try to assimilate into the culture that they were being persecuted and killed for breaking from?
Perhaps you were mistaken by passages that make exceptions for that which is forbidden: "He has forbidden you carrion, blood, and the flesh of swine; also any flesh that is consecrated other than in the name of God. But whoever is driven by necessity, intending neither to sin, nor to transgress, shall incur no guilt" (Qur'an 2:173). That means you're not sending us to hell when you follow Black Jack Pershing's suggestions to dunk your ammo in pig's blood and fat and then bury us in the pig's entrails. But it doesn't mean we can start eating pork and drinking alcohol just to pretend to fit in.
But while we're at it, let's take a look at how much less violent God's chosen people were at God's request in the Bible:
"They warred against Midian, as YAHWEH commanded Moses, and killed every male. They killed the kings of Midian ... And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and they took as booty all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. All their cities in the places where they dwelt, and all their encampments, they burned with fire." (Numbers 31:7)
"And Joshua mowed down Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. And YAHWEH said to Moses, 'Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven. A hand upon the banner of YAHWEH! YAHWEH will be at war with Amalek for all generations.'" (Exodus 17:13)
"David struck the land, and saved neither man nor woman alive, and took away the sheep, and the oxen, and the donkeys, and the camels, and the clothing; and he returned, and came to Achish. Achish said, Against whom have you made a raid today? David said, Against the South of Judah, and against the South of the Jerahmeelites, and against the South of the Kenites.
David saved neither man nor woman alive, to bring them to Gath, saying, Lest they should tell of us, saying, So did David, and so has been his manner all the while he has lived in the country of the Philistines." (1 Samuel 27)
I'm not trying to say that I'm out to be against all Jews and Christians just because David and Joshua seemed to build their place in history from a large pile of corpses, but merely that all the Abrahamic religions found it necessary to take up the sword at some point.
Tom Servo
Member
Join the club
My sister's husband is an Iranian expatriate who fled when it became public knowledge he was Ba'hai. He looks somewhat Semitic, and he's very quiet, so people tend to assume he's brooding. I'm still trying to get him to come to the range with me, but he's actually terrified of guns. In his life, guns have always been the tools of the opressors, and I'm slowly trying to bring him around.
Oddly enough, when he saw my 1911, he recognized it immediately. Apparently, there are tons of them left over from when we supported the Shahs, and that's what the police there all carry to this day.
This is a guy who's been patient with the horrible runaround ICE has given him with the naturalization process, a guy who loves this country and wants to be an American, and every now and then he still meets with some nasty invective. And he fled Muslim opression. Sad irony.
rangerruck
Member
the problem here is, it is a fact that there are a lot of cells right here in the good old state of Texas. A huge state, lots of desert terrain, wide open, lots of privacy, reminds them of home.
Profiling is sadly human nature. I am of Chinese descent, and yet when I go to the range, I get nervous if I see a large group of Asians, thinking to myself " oh no...Japanese tourist, they are going to rent the 44 magnum because they saw Dirty Harry use it". And no I am not racist, my wife is Japanese.
I hate to admit it, I notice people of potential Middle East descent when they board the plane, and after 9/11 I sometimes wonder if my neighbor of Middle East descent could be potential cell groups. We all have our biases, and we all profile people..admit it, when you see me pulling up behind you or next to you in my car, you are going to think "oh no..Asian driver"
Half the people at work can't believe I am some gun owning, Asian born again Baptist.
I am not trying to be PC, but to be honest, I think the only thing I can do is treat people right, be aware of my surroundings, and let God sort out what evil lies behind every man's heart.
rambling over.
I hate to admit it, I notice people of potential Middle East descent when they board the plane, and after 9/11 I sometimes wonder if my neighbor of Middle East descent could be potential cell groups. We all have our biases, and we all profile people..admit it, when you see me pulling up behind you or next to you in my car, you are going to think "oh no..Asian driver"
Half the people at work can't believe I am some gun owning, Asian born again Baptist.
I am not trying to be PC, but to be honest, I think the only thing I can do is treat people right, be aware of my surroundings, and let God sort out what evil lies behind every man's heart.
rambling over.
cambeul41
Member
creampuff
One way to look at Middle Eastern neighbors is as a defense. One-half mile east of my home is a mosque. Closer than that to the west, another is being constructed. The way I figure it, nothing bad is going to happen in this area unless some idiots attack them.
You say your wife is Japanese. Mine used to be, but now she is a Glock packing, libertarian leaning, flag-waving American. People “really are” what is in their hearts, not what they look like.
Some mosques have occasional open houses at which non-Muslims can visit and learn. At the last one we went to, we met some very nice people (and one we would trust no further than we would a snake) and had some absolutely delicious food. If you have a chance, give it a try. Perhaps you will be more comfortable.
One way to look at Middle Eastern neighbors is as a defense. One-half mile east of my home is a mosque. Closer than that to the west, another is being constructed. The way I figure it, nothing bad is going to happen in this area unless some idiots attack them.
You say your wife is Japanese. Mine used to be, but now she is a Glock packing, libertarian leaning, flag-waving American. People “really are” what is in their hearts, not what they look like.
Some mosques have occasional open houses at which non-Muslims can visit and learn. At the last one we went to, we met some very nice people (and one we would trust no further than we would a snake) and had some absolutely delicious food. If you have a chance, give it a try. Perhaps you will be more comfortable.
I think many of us have these reactions to people who look middle eastern or are clearly Muslims. We all have our suspicions and for good reason. We have Muslims in the area and there is a large Mosque between Cincinnati and Dayton Ohio not far from here. Every once in a while I will see a man in the grocery with his wife wearing a Burkha and I have to admit I watch them carefully out of the corner of my eye....I don't chalk it up to being racist or a biggot about religion...I view it as caution. It is Muslims who attacked us and every plot here in the US has been tied to a Mosque. In fact there were some folks tied to the Mosque in Toledo who were arrested last year if memory serves... I admit it, they make me nervous. I can understand why this country interned Japanese and to a lesser extent Italian and German Americans they thought might be a threat. You really wonder where their loyalties lie.......
This isn't so much a thing about Arab looking guys, as it is about being aware of your surroundings.
Remember that airport baggage guy that stopped the terrorists because he had a bad "feeling"? If all you were doing was being aware of your surroundings and assessing the situation then you are being a good and helpful guy to your neighbors.
The fact that you used some blanket characteristics that fit every description of true nut jobs because you were aware of them, is not something to be beating yourself up about. Use what you know and are aware of.
It sounds like you checked them out and weren't bothered by what you saw. Good. You made an observation and noted it. You were trying to discriminate:
Discriminate (Dis*crim"i*nate) (?), v. i.
1. To make a difference or distinction; to distinguish accurately; as, in judging of evidence, we should be careful to discriminate between probability and slight presumption.
I have seen on these threads all about Condition White and Situational Awareness and the like. You weren't on Condition White. Congratulations are in order, I guess.
have a great day,
cavman
Remember that airport baggage guy that stopped the terrorists because he had a bad "feeling"? If all you were doing was being aware of your surroundings and assessing the situation then you are being a good and helpful guy to your neighbors.
The fact that you used some blanket characteristics that fit every description of true nut jobs because you were aware of them, is not something to be beating yourself up about. Use what you know and are aware of.
It sounds like you checked them out and weren't bothered by what you saw. Good. You made an observation and noted it. You were trying to discriminate:
Discriminate (Dis*crim"i*nate) (?), v. i.
1. To make a difference or distinction; to distinguish accurately; as, in judging of evidence, we should be careful to discriminate between probability and slight presumption.
I have seen on these threads all about Condition White and Situational Awareness and the like. You weren't on Condition White. Congratulations are in order, I guess.
have a great day,
cavman
xd9fan
Member
racial profiling
As Dennis Miller has said, understanding that 15 out of 19 of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudi isn't profiling, it's "being minimally observant."
To quote Dennis Miller: “If I get some guy who looks like the Shoe Bomber sitting by me, I will wave down a stewardess! I’ll be like, ‘Nuh Unh Honey. I am not sitting here. Unless this is the harmonica player from the J. Geils Band, I am not sitting next to him, OK? This better be Jeff Goldblum on a meth bender!’”
As Dennis Miller has said, understanding that 15 out of 19 of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudi isn't profiling, it's "being minimally observant."
To quote Dennis Miller: “If I get some guy who looks like the Shoe Bomber sitting by me, I will wave down a stewardess! I’ll be like, ‘Nuh Unh Honey. I am not sitting here. Unless this is the harmonica player from the J. Geils Band, I am not sitting next to him, OK? This better be Jeff Goldblum on a meth bender!’”
- Status
