Took some Eastern Europeans to the Range

[Joe Demko]

on Sunday. Sergei, one of my in-laws, turned 40 and wanted to to go shooting (again) as my present to him. Several other relatives and friends from the immigrant community joined us. In my party I had : 2 Ukranian men, 3 Ukranian women, 1 Russian man, 1 Polish man, and 1 Belorussian man. We were joined by an American friend of theirs who was supposed to act as an extra safety officer. All the Eastern Europeans are old enough to have grown up in the Soviet era and learned shooting in school and the military.
I brought a 10/22, SKS, Yugo AK, CZ-75, CZ-75 RAMI, Compensated HK USP 40, Ruger Mk II, and Whitney Wolverine for them to shoot.
The immigrants shot exceedingly well and exhibited good range discipline, especially if you consider that most of them hadn't even touched a gun since before the fall of the Soviet Union. The Belorussian fellow, particularly, liked the SKS and knew how to use it. The guest of honor displayed unusual skill with a pistol for a fellow who was, supposedly, a driver in the Soviet Army. Their favorites out of all the guns were the AK and, surprisingly to me, the CZ-75 RAMI. The RAMI is a .40, and like many compact .40's, has somewhat brisk recoil and loud muzzle blast.
There were other Americans at the club that day that we watched for a while. Their performance led one of the Ukranians to say: "Our countries are opposite. Here everybody has guns and nobody can shoot. In Ukraine, nobody has guns and everybody can shoot."

 

[ezypikns]

Exactly

"Our countries are opposite. Here everybody has guns and nobody can shoot. In Ukraine, nobody has guns and everybody can shoot."

I'm including myself too. Just a random observation, but every male in this country seems to think he's been naturally gifted with the ability to shoot well. I've been a hunter all my life. Taught to shoot long guns by Father and Grandfathers. Not too bad with a rifle, and a little better with a shotgun, but I'm a less than average pistol shot.
Judging from the way I shoot, and not a few others, maybe I need to get some real training.

 

[Chipperman]

"Our countries are opposite. Here everybody has guns and nobody can shoot. In Ukraine, nobody has guns and everybody can shoot."

OMG, that is an awesome quote!!

 

[Dave R]

Kinda a slam on American shooters...

But I'm afraid he's right.

Present company excepted, of course...

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I had a job once where my supervisor was Russian. He had a strong accent. I took him to my home and showed him my AK 47. His eyes lit up. Brought back memories. He could field strip it with his eyes closed.

I had a job once where I supervised lots of Ukrainian workers. They are almost always amazed when I tell them the guns that I have. I guess you cannot have guns in the Ukraine unless you are military or police.

 

[Logan5]

It's a shame really. I toured the Polish Army Museum in 2005, and they had some seriously amazing weapons, all deactivated somehow. Apparently it was a Communist mandate, so you'd go into the WWII area on the second floor, and there's some bizzare one off machine pistol someone built in Warsaw and took out a German squad with singlehanded, with like a three page polish/english history card, with the medals the guy got mounted next to it, and then they've drilled holes in it. It was fascinating, but it made me very angry too.
I ran a couple of Polish nationals through the NRA basic handgun course this summer, and they did quite well, for all the good it did them... foreign nationals residing in NYC, so it's not like they'll be getting permits. We had a great time though.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

"Our countries are opposite. Here everybody has guns and nobody can shoot. In Ukraine, nobody has guns and everybody can shoot."

I may be a crappy shot, but at least I can shoot!

 

[X-Rap]

About ten years ago I was working out of Salt Lake and a buddy and I were eating and drinking beer at a place called Squatters Pub.We over heard some guys speaking german and having a hard time with an impatient waitress. Well my buddy will befriend a lamp post (dave u got a heart of gold) so he helps the kruats get their order in and we got german buddys.Anyway these guys are checking out the home of the free and the brave doin a cross country trip. So dave and I start doing what we know best bragging on USA the discussion goes we each have 3/4 ton company trucks mine had over 100 gal. fuel capacity and we're each driving alone they couldn't believe it.So dave volunteers to take them shooting the next day they exchange # and set time I agree to double my work load and they're set.Well these guys didn't know this but dave can really shoot.The day after he told me the story.He had an AR and some other mil type rifles along but the treat was the 1911 and 41 S&W mag and as I said dave can shoot, as in wild west show. The krauts would throw their quarters and nickles in the air and dave would hit them then they'd go out and try to find them and by the end of the session each had a hand full of souvenirs and pictures posing with guns that are outlawed to most. From what he said they're probobly still talking about it and definately think americans can shoot

 

[LeonCarr]

Take a look at the Olympic Medal Winners in shooting. Notice where most of them are from. The majority are from China, Russia, or former Warsaw Pact countries. From what I have read most of them learned to shoot about the same time they learned to walk.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Wow

"Our countries are opposite. Here everybody has guns and nobody can shoot. In Ukraine, nobody has guns and everybody can shoot."

That is . . . deep.

It's a piece of truth about our country that maps onto so many layers.

As a country we have everything; we appreciate nothing.

Sad.

I'm glad I have someone with whom I can share my appreciations.

Thanks, guys.

 

[worker]

finally decided sign up... really wanted to reply to this post .

I finished first 2 years of a university in Belarus, so I spent most of my life there (I was born and raised there). Did not go to the Army prior to my leave to US.
So I can describe the protocol most of the guys go through up to the time they go to the army (and this is prior to '92).

starting from 8th grade I think (we had total of 10 grades)
we had a class (not an elective (there are no electives) called 'Voennaya podgotovka' (translated to Military Prep).
It was once or twice a week. We would learn how dissamble and put back ak-47 (in under 1 minute), gas masks and we shot what I guess was a very light caliber may be 2-3 shots per person per week. With absolutely no instructions (in my case) of how to aim and pull the trigger... but we shot.

We once, I think it 10th grade were taken to a military range and shot the full power auto ak-47. Still remember the feeling of that thing... I did not expect to feel that much recoil (as I never shot before anything but that light rifle in the class or the air rifles).

We also had 'air rifles' places called 'Tir' (do not know how to translate that one ... may be an air-rifle gun range). It was very cheap and people went there quite often those days... but again no instructions.

Then there are some guys and girls went into DOSAF (which is a kind of boyscout thing where you learn shooting, radio, parachuting skills etc) but this was not
a like an obligatory class it was just like you go into sports only that one was more practical from military stand point.
The guys who went there actually learned stuff.

In the summer brake between 9th and 10th grade we had
a 'pre-military' camp I think for 1.5 months. This was obligatory (unless you had a health execuse). So we ran crosses (while wearing the boots and uniform), learned how to put on 'portianki' (which is a towel-like socks that you were in militiary), digged trentches and threw improvised grenades (and we had to watch the patriotic movies about Brenzhnev and stuff).

I do not know if those things are done these days in schools... may be in Belarus still, but I doubt that it is now in Russia or Ukrain.


People of course who go through the military learn how to shoot -- even though they have done it 20 years ago they will be better then a US civilian who shoots either never or a couple of times a year on occasion on his own without training. So people from those countries are not some how magically better, instead it is because of the military training.

I did not go to military, so I cannot shoot (and more importantly was never trained by a professional) ... so I plan to go to classes or clubs (but I cannot find any clubs where I can do long-term learning here in South Fl).

----

 

[USSR]

We also had 'air rifles' places called 'Tir' (do not know how to translate that one ... may be an air-rifle gun range).

The "Tir's" are still there. I go over to Ukraine every Spring, and always keep an eye out for these air rifle shooting ranges in the parks.

Don

 

[Chipperman]

Welcome, worker!

(but I cannot find any clubs where I can do long-term learning here in South Fl).

Allright guys in Southern, FL. Help this guy out.

 

[WolfMansDad]

compare vets to vets

"Our countries are opposite. Here everybody has guns and nobody can shoot. In Ukraine, nobody has guns and everybody can shoot."

If I understood your post correctly, all of these Eastern Europeans had military training, and some, at least, were veterans. Your average American shooter has never had any formal training and has never served in the military, not even ROTC.

I'd be curious to match these Eastern Europeans up with an equivalent group of American vets (recent Marine Corps, anyone?) and see how they stack up.

 

[Joe Demko]

Don't get yourself worked up at a perceived insult, WolfMansDad. All he meant was that everybody in Ukraine received training in school and/or the military in how to shoot. That isn't the case here.
Your hypothetical match-up, for it to be truly equivalent, would have to be US veterans who received training in the 80's or early 90's and haven't touched a gun since.

 

[ETXhiker]

Dobre pazhalovat, Worker. Nice story.

 

[CrazyIrishman]

Hi WORKER,

Welcome to the board. There's alot of good info here on the board and a bunch of decent people too! You can't go wrong!


My first introduction to firearms was through my brother (US Navy "59-61"). He had a Charter Arms 38 snubnose and a .22 rifle. I don't recall the brand but it was a single shot bolt action with no magazine. As I recall I didn't do too bad with the .22 but I was terrible with the 38!. I guess I was about 12 years old.

In 1972 I had formal instruction from a retired career Marine while attending military school in Virginia. We used bolt action .22's that IIRC were either Remington or Winchester. All of the rifles had 1907 type slings and we were taught basic shooting positions.

During 1980- part of "82 I shot a national match pistol course at my local range/gunshop. Although I didn't win anything I learned quite a bit, met some decent people, and I had fun doing it!

About two years ago I was at the range with a buddy of mine who had prior service in the Marines ('67-69 Viet Nam). In between shooting a couple different rifles and pistols I told him that he was more than welcome to try out my Colt AR15. Well,try out he did! He put us all to shame!

After he was finished he said that it was the first time in roughly 35 years since he shot something that resembled the M16, it was heavier than he remembered (mine is an HBAR) and that during part of his time in the Corp he was a marksmanship instructor.

I guess you never forget your training.

 

[Wags]

My ex is from Belarus and despised firearms. Her father and brother-in-law and I could talk upon hours about firearms and fishing (bored the heck out of the women). My father-in-law always told the story how the Army made him sleep with his Kalashnikov during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Thanks for the memories. The in-laws are missed, especially sitting around the kitchen table talking, eating fresh kabosa and vegetables, and always the ever present liter of Belarussian vodka.......

 

[Medusa]

Yeah, the Voennaya podgotovka, this was fun, field-stripping an AK-47 and putting it back together in 30 sec-s, blindfolded. Or drunk.

Military experience in eastern europe:
In the middle of 80-s we had a delegation from Talsi region, Latvia, visiting Saaremaa. After the niceties a party was put up and men started to brag who's tougher. Visitors said that there every kolhos had a culture house. Local guy was in trouble, since land wasn't that fertile and kolhoses weren't that rich, but came up with the answer: here every kolhose has a missile base (true it was, actually).

To make the WolfManDad happy:
3 tanks are waiting for the attack command.
Commander: Tak, Tank pervõi perjot. Tank dashes forward into woods and dissapears.
Commander: Tank vtaroi perjot! That one too dashes and dissapears.
Commander: Tank treti perjot! Silence. Tank treti perjot, šlõsu durak. Nothing, tank stays still.
Commander: treti treti šlõsu tõ ....
Hatch flies open, tanker (tchucktch - sp?) jumps out, helmet in hand and screams: Ljudi šljapa gavarit!

The driver fellow most probably had better training in smallarms art, since the general term driver could mean a lot of things.

Edited to add: chronicle of saboteur division (for russian literates and interested fellows):
Part I
Part II

 

[WolfMansDad]

Sounds like everybody over there gets at least some military training in the public school system. Why don't we do that? Seems like a good idea to me.

Didn't ROTC used to be mandatory for college students, back in the fifties?

 

[Guy B. Meredith]

I'm glad everything turned out well. When I was working as Range Safety Officer at Chabot the Eastern Europeans were a scary lot--uncase their rifles behind the lines and sweep every customer on the range. Maybe one spoke English and when I pointed up while shouting "muzzle up" I'm sure they thought I was pointing at the sky to observe the fine weather.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

I used to work with someone from one of the former SSR's. She learned to shoot and maintain AK47 in high school. I don't know if the class is still taught in school, now that the SSR's have split away from Mother Russia.